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Thread: Formula 1 2020

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    Had much discussion about this over lunch - we think it looks legit. I can't see why it would banned. As mentioned above, I reckon another situation where everyone copies and then it's banned. The impact on tyre temperature and wear will be interesting to watch, as well as actual performance gains.
    one reason may be how the FIA feel about Senna's death, I think that it was attributed to the steering column, if so adding complications, weakness, or making it indirect may be seen as unsafe

  2. #52
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Mercedes confident 'dual-axis steering' system for 2020 within F1 rules

    ...Technical director James Allison said it "introduces an extra dimension for steering which we hope will be useful".

    He said governing body the FIA was aware of it. "The rules are clear about what's permitted on steering systems. We're pretty confident that it matches those requirements," he said.

    He declined to elaborate further on the purposes of the system...
    That would seem to indicate that Mercedes will argue that it's a steering system and not anything to do with the suspension. However the Tech Regs under ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS say:

    10.2 Suspension geometry:

    10.2.1 With the steering wheel fixed, the position of each wheel centre and the orientation of its rotation axis must be completely and uniquely defined by a function of its principally vertical suspension travel, save only for the effects of reasonable compliance which does not intentionally provide further degrees of freedom.

    10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden

    10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion.


    So...is it 'powered' and does it make an adjustment to the suspension system?

    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Let the battle of the semantics commence...

    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    one reason may be how the FIA feel about Senna's death, I think that it was attributed to the steering column, if so adding complications, weakness, or making it indirect may be seen as unsafe
    At 10.4.4 they say "The steering wheel, steering column and steering rack assembly must pass an impact test,
    details of the test procedure may be found in Article 16.5."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Why? just because it's innovative. we have discussed the compromise with toe, effectively pulling the car around the corner before, I said at brands we have one wheel straight and the other turning in, someone on here thought I was talking rubbish.

    I think the interesting arguments may be regarding the percentage of Mercedes W10 that is in the Racing Point.
    I didnít think the driver is allowed to change suspension geometry whilst car is in motion and, if that is the case, no doubt a protest will be raised.

  4. #54
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    If itís just changing the toe in/out, then arguably that the steering geometry rather than suspension


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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    If itís just changing the toe in/out, then arguably that the steering geometry rather than suspension


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    Under curtain circumstances a change in toe could push the camber over the maximum allowed

  6. #56
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Under curtain circumstances a change in toe could push the camber over the maximum allowed
    I would hope Mercedes have engineered this not to happen?.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  7. #57
    1m15.732s The Merc is flying

  8. #58
    For anyone interested in the new Mercedes steering DAS:

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...taFZPCKC4.html

  9. #59
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    DAS banned for 2021 apparently


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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKH View Post
    I wrote this in 2016 for a mag i do work for ....i still stand by it...'yes some tongue' in cheek but heh....
    I am a strong critic of current F1 non racing.
    It does need defending though.
    The current world is a vastly changed place from 30 years ago; back then sex was safe, racing was not.

    We now have vastly different outlooks on safety and envrionment to name but two aspects. This in the context of worldwide politically correct multi media scrutinising.
    Bottom line it is not so simple to please even most.
    Just look at the umbrella girls debacle which is a pretty harmless example: 30 years ago Bond could be scripted to slap a girl and sheīd swoon!
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    DAS banned for 2021 apparently


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    Jup, but the headache (and cost) for this season will not go away. The race to catch up seems very much on given the performance of Mercedes so far!

  12. #62
    Racing Point were referred to as "Tracing Point" on Sky, in a discussion about the undeniable similarity of this year's RP and last year's Mercedes...

    Not much happening this afternoon, most drivers doing race simulations. Bottas put in a quick sponsor-pleasing lap this morning, we've had engine failures for Ferrari and Williams, and a tyre failure for Kevin Magnussen which almost pitched him into a wall.

    Reliability has been a feature of this week's Test, with some serious mileages being racked up. Mercedes and Racing Point can be satisfied with their performance this week, Ferrari are a bit downbeat, and the Renault garage appears to be populated by men with furrowed brows and gloomy expressions.

    The second, and final pre-season Test is next week.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  13. #63
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    DAS banned for 2021 apparently


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    This is in the 2021 Tech Regs published in October last year:

    10.5.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel.



    My thanks to planetf1 for the reference...link.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    DAS banned for 2021 apparently


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    Much as expected, at least it looks as if it will be legal for this season though.

    Edit: Apparently Ferrari are now seeking clarification from the FIA re the legality of the Mercedes DAS system.

    What a surprise!
    Last edited by JeremyO; 21st February 2020 at 17:15.

  15. #65
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Much as expected, at least it looks as if it will be legal for this season though.

    Edit: Apparently Ferrari are now seeking clarification from the FIA re the legality of the Mercedes DAS system.

    What a surprise!
    motorsport.com

    Ferrari Formula 1 team principal Mattia Binotto says that the Maranello outfit will ask the FIA for clarification on the legality of the Mercedes DAS system, but it won't challenge the governing body's decision.

    Mercedes has already made it clear that it checked the legality of DAS with the FIA before proceeding with it.

    Binotto also admitted that Ferrari has not yet fully understood what the potential advantages of the innovation are, and suggested that his team would not be able to replicate its own version until the middle of the season.

    "I've seen that there is a lot of discussion about it," said Binotto. "Personally myself, I didn't really look in detail, what it's about, but I think we trust fully the FIA.

    "I'm pretty sure that they have already done the right decision, or they will do it. But I completely trust on what FIA will judge."

    He added: "Are we discussing with the FIA? Not yet. We will do for clarification, important for us to understand, but as I said, we will not challenge the FIA on their decision, because we trust them fully on what will be or has been the decision on that."...


    Let's see how long that lasts...

  16. #66
    Not been banned for next year per say - the wording to exclude it from 2021 has been in the proposed regs for some months.

    To date there is nothing to say that the left and right hand steering arms must move with a fixed separation.

    If it is inbound of the steering arm inner ball joint then its not suspension so fair game.

    The parasitic power loss to a 30" (minutes of angle) toe in F1 in several kW so worth a few hundreths on a long straight.

    It could also be used to either go paralel on the straits to reduce front tyre temps, or increase toe out to drive heat into them.

    Obviously these are my thoughts and not those of my employer...

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  17. #67
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    I think the biggest benefit of DAS is reduction in tyre wear being able to effectively reset toe to zero reduces scrub in straight line....

    Mercedes have apparently discussed the system with FIA throughout development and as it driver activated / controlled its within regs ..coolio...

    Will be interesting to see what other teams do as clearly not something they can throw together in a weekend or month or err months...

  18. #68
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    Given that Mercedes had the sense to discuss DAS with the FIA before putting it on the car and getting their approval, I personally I hope that it isnít banned, simply because I can see this having applications on high performance road cars outside F1.

    We have the ability to adjust the Toe, Camber and suspension already so why not make it dynamic.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluehase284 View Post
    Not been banned for next year per say - the wording to exclude it from 2021 has been in the proposed regs for some months.
    The amendment within the technical regulations for 2021 has been, as you say, there for a few months however it appears to have been placed there to close the loophole that Mercedes have exploited.

    The story goes that Mercedes approached the FIA about their innovation many months back asking for clarification ref its legality. The FIA realised that there's nothing within the regulations at the time to prevent such a device so they gave Mercedes the green light, they then amended the regulations for next year to close the loophole. One has to wonder though if the other teams picked up on this amendment - could it have been considered a clue that one of their rivals had given reason for such a change?

    Hats off to the Silver Arrows. They've thought outside the box and have potentially changed the game for this season. They've been reasonably dominant in testing and have a system in place that, it has been quoted, will take 6 months for any other team to replicate. That being the case then you have to wonder if anyone will actually copy it given that it's banned after this season and it will absorb resources that would have otherwise been put to use developing and improving other areas of the package. It's early doors of course, next week will have each team closing in on the optimal spec and set-up for Melbourne, and we all know that a season isn't won in a single race. I'm not going to bet against Mercedes winning both championships again though, not based on what we've seen so far.
    Last edited by CardShark; 22nd February 2020 at 17:10.

  20. #70
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    Surprised this hasn't been discussed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804

    So what do we all think? I'm my view pretty much everything that's wrong with the sport, we all knew Ferrari were at it and this confirms it, but conveniently brushed under the carpet by the FIA. Certainly leaves a sour taste as we gear up for the start of the new season.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~dadam02~ View Post
    Surprised this hasn't been discussed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804

    So what do we all think? I'm my view pretty much everything that's wrong with the sport, we all knew Ferrari were at it and this confirms it, but conveniently brushed under the carpet by the FIA. Certainly leaves a sour taste as we gear up for the start of the new season.
    It's pretty obvious that our opinion matters little to the FIA. After all, big money is concerned. Now, if Mercedes and Red Bull throw their toys out of the pram...

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    It's pretty obvious that our opinion matters little to the FIA. After all, big money is concerned. Now, if Mercedes and Red Bull throw their toys out of the pram...
    The purpose of Formula 1 teams is to find loopholes in the regulations, and exploit them. If you examined every team and car forensically, you could find something wrong. Not only does Formula 1 employ the finest engineering brains on the planet, it employs some of the finest legal brains too.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    It's pretty obvious that our opinion matters little to the FIA. After all, big money is concerned. Now, if Mercedes and Red Bull throw their toys out of the pram...
    Red Bull's MV did it last year. He received a lot of flack calling Ferrari cheaters. It looks as if he was right.

    On the matter of Mercedes' DAS system: LH always complained about excessive tyre wear on last year's Mercedes. Perhaps this helps to 'save' the tyres, making it possible to do longer stints on a full set.

    M

  24. #74
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    Cheating is pushing the rules beyond breaking point. There is no evidence Ferrari did this. But it gave MV a good reason to whine.
    Likewise, the adaptive steering will be forbidden next year because they closed a loophole. In the meantime chances are Mercedes might have an advantage.
    Memento Mori

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Cheating is pushing the rules beyond breaking point. There is no evidence Ferrari did this. But it gave MV a good reason to whine.
    Likewise, the adaptive steering will be forbidden next year because they closed a loophole. In the meantime chances are Mercedes might have an advantage.
    The DAS system looks to be legit (FIA approval) If so, kudos to Mercedes for inventing it and it should be rewarded: victories.

    About Ferrari's gizmo: had their system be approved by FIA, no doubt they would have been on the top of their lungs telling the whole world that their system was legal and that all they did was inside the rules. They would have told everybody that they were not to blame and that MV should have kept his mouth shut with a 'I told you'. No, Ferrari and FIA came to a private settlement, without telling the nature or content of that settlement.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    The DAS system looks to be legit (FIA approval) If so, kudos to Mercedes for inventing it and it should be rewarded: victories.

    About Ferrari's gizmo: had their system be approved by FIA, no doubt they would have been on the top of their lungs telling the whole world that their system was legal and that all they did was inside the rules. They would have told everybody that they were not to blame and that MV should have kept his mouth shut with a 'I told you'. No, Ferrari and FIA came to a private settlement, without telling the nature or content of that settlement.
    Indeed. My view is that the video extract gave the game up for Mercedes and everyone knows what their innovation is, whereas that is not the case for Ferrari. So no need to play for the fans or the media, FIA amends the regulations without spieling the beans for Ferrari, because something that comes with it still gives them an advantage and remains OK for next season.
    Memento Mori

  27. #77
    I just watched the first three episodes of Drive to survive, so much more interesting than the Sky output

  28. #78

  29. #79
    They haven't confirmed that Ferrari will be allowed in yet.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I just watched the first three episodes of Drive to survive, so much more interesting than the Sky output
    And the angles they film from seem to make the cars look so much faster.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    They haven't confirmed that Ferrari will be allowed in yet.
    Pirelli are Italian - they can't race without Tyres

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~dadam02~ View Post
    Surprised this hasn't been discussed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51681804

    So what do we all think? I'm my view pretty much everything that's wrong with the sport, we all knew Ferrari were at it and this confirms it, but conveniently brushed under the carpet by the FIA. Certainly leaves a sour taste as we gear up for the start of the new season.
    Outrageous, if it had been any other team I believe they would have been sanctioned at the time and we would all know the nature of the transgression.

    Because it is Ferrari it is swept under the carpet. I had hoped that the bias towards Ferrari would end when Bernie left the sport but apparently not.

    I think I read somewhere that Ferrari will continue to retain their existing veto together with the increased funding they already enjoy going forward. Can anyone enlighten me here?

  33. #83

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianwong View Post
    New Drive to Survive is out on Netflix:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEY3Q43aE_c
    and, if I may say so, it's excellent.

    It actually makes F1 interesting. S1 was brilliant as is S2. Heck even SWMBO loves it.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Outrageous, if it had been any other team I believe they would have been sanctioned at the time and we would all know the nature of the transgression.

    Because it is Ferrari it is swept under the carpet. I had hoped that the bias towards Ferrari would end when Bernie left the sport but apparently not.

    I think I read somewhere that Ferrari will continue to retain their existing veto together with the increased funding they already enjoy going forward. Can anyone enlighten me here?

    it begs the question whether LeClercís wins will stand? Hopefully not and other drivers will get the credit.

    So Belgium GP goes to LH
    Italian GP to VB
    Singapore to MV

    It would be shocking if LH failed to beat MS GP wins record because of more Ferrari cheating.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    it begs the question whether LeClercís wins will stand? Hopefully not and other drivers will get the credit.

    So Belgium GP goes to LH
    Italian GP to VB
    Singapore to MV

    It would be shocking if LH failed to beat MS GP wins record because of more Ferrari cheating.
    Itís done and dusted so last years results will stand.

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Itís done and dusted so last years results will stand.
    Yes but it does seem that FIA is strong here

  38. #88
    The Ferrari / FIA situation isn't resolved just yet - https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/new...eam-statement/

    I'm very much looking forward to the conclusion of this, not because I've anything against Ferrari but because of principle. To have a 'behind closed doors' settlement doesn't sit well at all and Mercedes appear to be laying their cards on the table in public.

  39. #89
    Having difficulties editting my post above on my mobile without deleting the entire post...

    That's not just Mercedes name on the statement!

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    Having difficulties editing my post above on my mobile without deleting the entire post...

    That's not just Mercedes name on the statement!
    It's every team except the Ferrari powered ones! Interesting times ...

  41. #91
    Interesting times indeed! I admire the teams for taking this stance. Let's assume that there was no illegality or impropriety: (at best) it makes the FIA look less than independent and casts a shadow over the governing body and all of the sports that they oversee.
    Last edited by RichS; 4th March 2020 at 17:10.

  42. #92
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    Good news, I’m glad the teams are challenging this whitewash. If rules have been broken then we need to know the details of the transgression and sanctions need to be levied and seen to be levied.

    It could be that Ferrari have gained financially from this by way of their team position in 2019 and, if this is the case, I cannot see Red Bull letting this go.

    I really hope we get get the full details.
    Last edited by JeremyO; 4th March 2020 at 14:27.

  43. #93
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    I wonder: how can professional communication & marketing men and women come to the conclusion that they both (Ferrari and FIA) can get away with a hollow statement about a closed-door-settlement that holds the answer to the most-discussed topic of the 2019 F1 season. This only adds fuel to the fire!

    Menno

  44. #94
    With the likelihood of Coronavirus causing the cancellation of all of this season's races, at least we have something to debate...
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Backward point View Post
    With the likelihood of Coronavirus causing the cancellation of all of this season's races, at least we have something to debate...
    There isnít much of a debate to have, the FIA have demonstrated their usual bias but this time the other teams are not prepared to accept it, there could be a considerable amount of money at stake if the other teams go to court regarding last years final championship positions.

  46. #96
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    Verstappen's first run on the new Zandvoort circuit today. Turn 3 appears very difficult according to Verstappen and have a look at the last turn. Sort of embankment, full throttle and DRS will open just before the turn!


  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Verstappen's first run on the new Zandvoort circuit today. Turn 3 appears very difficult according to Verstappen and have a look at the last turn. Sort of embankment, full throttle and DRS will open just before the turn!
    Thanks for that.
    Despite massive changes in the back part, a wave of racing memories.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  48. #98
    It looks great as a driverís circuit, but Iím not convinced it will be a good racing circuit.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichS View Post
    It looks great as a driverís circuit, but Iím not convinced it will be a good racing circuit.
    ^^??^^ Explain?

  50. #100
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Itís done and dusted so last years results will stand.
    But why? The Tour De France was done and dusted, but Armstrong and US Postal was still stripped of the titles, just as Ben Johnson, pretty much every Russian who won medals at the Olympics, etc, etc, were stripped.

    So why not Ferrari. Unless of course there were not guilty of cheating, in which case why the settlement?

    As for the settlement, if itís a fine, like the one McLaren got, where does the money go? To the teams, the FIA or Liberty?

    Without a punitive penalty, this sort of cheating will continue.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


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