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Thread: Gold - dont we just love it

  1. #1

    Gold - dont we just love it

    I know there are a good few gold speculators on here - and I was looking at my graphs etc via the net - astonishing 17% overall rise on an ounce for a year today
    £170 return on a grand is frankly awesome

    The Iran "scare" caused a small "blip" - but overall im glad to say that the folk I know who also bought are doing well in the current uncertainty of Brexit, Mexit, Iran, Trump, fires etc

    Do any of you set a trade out price as such - ie a checkout price which if it hits you sell?

  2. #2
    I was buying at £800 an ounce a few years back..mainly Krugerrands. Cashed up when they went up a tad and unfortunately the price hasn’t dropped back since..I do like gold as you can handle it unlike silver as it blemishes. I’d like more but won’t be paying the current prices. Maybe that means il never buy again but I’d like to buy the dip and not the high...

  3. #3
    Quite a few guys at work buy it or have over the years with a view to conveniently avoiding inheritance tax one day...(one guy I know has a “tin of biscuits” for his kids!).no vat on price unlike silver ( or so I think)

  4. #4
    Looked at it a few times but never been sure.

    Do you have any places you recommend buying from?

  5. #5
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkit View Post
    Looked at it a few times but never been sure.

    Do you have any places you recommend buying from?
    I've used these a few times, very good.

    https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk

  6. #6
    Atkinsons, bullion by post, silver to go (for silver obviously)

  7. #7
    Journeyman Chiefs's Avatar
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    I had mixed results trading gold at 10x leverage. Probably better to just buy coins and pass on to the kids in years to come. "Some" people believe the Gold and Bitcoin are both worthy long-term investments, just depends what your risk appetite is like.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GOAT View Post
    Quite a few guys at work buy it or have over the years with a view to conveniently avoiding inheritance tax one day...(one guy I know has a “tin of biscuits” for his kids!).no vat on price unlike silver ( or so I think)
    Does he mean he has bullion in a biscuit tin which he won't declare or that he has loads of gold coins which act as legal tender and therefore are exempt from CGT? Not judging, just wondering. If his kids (or anyone else) popped up with say £50k of gold and wanted to sell it wouldn't they be asked where it came from etc?

  9. #9
    Thanks, will have a look !

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I've used these a few times, very good.

    https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOAT View Post
    Quite a few guys at work buy it or have over the years with a view to conveniently avoiding inheritance tax one day
    Trouble is, he's also avoiding any income which, over the years, doesn't half add up, especially if compounded.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweepinghand View Post
    I know there are a good few gold speculators on here - and I was looking at my graphs etc via the net - astonishing 17% overall rise on an ounce for a year today
    £170 return on a grand is frankly awesome

    The Iran "scare" caused a small "blip" - but overall im glad to say that the folk I know who also bought are doing well in the current uncertainty of Brexit, Mexit, Iran, Trump, fires etc

    Do any of you set a trade out price as such - ie a checkout price which if it hits you sell?

    FTSE 250 was up c25% (+ dividends) and the FTSE 100 about 12% (+ dividends).

    If only I had foresight to invest at the right times!! I have forecast 37 of the last 2 stock market crashes!
    Last edited by David_D; 9th January 2020 at 18:43.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Does he mean he has bullion in a biscuit tin which he won't declare or that he has loads of gold coins which act as legal tender and therefore are exempt from CGT? Not judging, just wondering. If his kids (or anyone else) popped up with say £50k of gold and wanted to sell it wouldn't they be asked where it came from etc?
    It is my understanding,happy to be corrected, that british gold coins can be passes at face value for inheritance, so a sovereign worth 280 ish currently is classed as a quid.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    It is my understanding,happy to be corrected, that british gold coins can be passes at face value for inheritance, so a sovereign worth 280 ish currently is classed as a quid.
    Yes the sovereigns produced after a certain date are classed as tender so (I believe, from researching earlier today) don't quality for inheritance tax or captain gains. Actual billion does.

    You also seem to have a tax free allowance for selling bullion every April of just under 12k so you could split a transaction over two tax free periods a week apart in April to sell just under 24k tax free.

    Quite interesting but a little over my head.

  14. #14
    Master Skyman's Avatar
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    I may just buy a 12.5kg ingot as a doorstop.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    I may just buy a 12.5kg ingot as a doorstop.
    Bung it in a sock, burglars wont look twice

  16. #16
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    I bought a Rolex white gold DD11, weighs a smidge under half a pound and it tells the time, win win.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobdog View Post
    I bought a Rolex white gold DD11, weighs a smidge under half a pound and it tells the time, win win.
    That'll be the movement and the crystal, take them out and you will be left holding a few grams 😂

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    That'll be the movement and the crystal, take them out and you will be left holding a few grams 
    LOL (Youff speak for laugh out loud)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Does he mean he has bullion in a biscuit tin which he won't declare or that he has loads of gold coins which act as legal tender and therefore are exempt from CGT? Not judging, just wondering. If his kids (or anyone else) popped up with say £50k of gold and wanted to sell it wouldn't they be asked where it came from etc?
    He owns gold sovereigns I’m pretty sure.

  20. #20
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    I had this lovely piece of native gold for a while, about the size of a tennis ball.


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkit View Post
    Looked at it a few times but never been sure.

    Do you have any places you recommend buying from?
    Cheapest, including postage is usually Baird & Co of London. The rest are more expensive on average.

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

  22. #22
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    here s a link to a gold monitor site and cheapest place to buy at any one time in uk( i have no connection other than we use it on the sliver forum)

    http://goldprice.eu5.net/

    your welcome :-)

  23. #23
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    I really don’t understand why you all mess about buying physical gold and sovereigns. Just buy an ETF such as GBS that you can hold in your ISA.

    Job done.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweepinghand View Post
    I know there are a good few gold speculators on here - and I was looking at my graphs etc via the net - astonishing 17% overall rise on an ounce for a year today
    £170 return on a grand is frankly awesome

    The Iran "scare" caused a small "blip" - but overall im glad to say that the folk I know who also bought are doing well in the current uncertainty of Brexit, Mexit, Iran, Trump, fires etc

    Do any of you set a trade out price as such - ie a checkout price which if it hits you sell?
    I have been messing around trading it the last 6 months. Its gambling with 'fun money' but its been a good ride. I will probably get smashed this year

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by klunk View Post
    I really don’t understand why you all mess about buying physical gold and sovereigns. Just buy an ETF such as GBS that you can hold in your ISA.
    Job done.
    This is what I've been wondering although not for inheritance granted.
    Last edited by wileeeeeey; 10th January 2020 at 22:39.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by klunk View Post
    I really don’t understand why you all mess about buying physical gold and sovereigns. Just buy an ETF such as GBS that you can hold in your ISA.

    Job done.
    Yep or go more extreme and leverage - IG has gold. Thats my platform at the moment. Now its hit new heights I am out. Got no idea what it will do next TBH (well I never did as above its a gamble).

  27. #27
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    Appreciate that the OP has posted about speculating on gold but the flip sides which can also work is as a long term investment and could also work as non taxable inheritance when bought as sovereigns or other so called coins of the realm.
    Last edited by bobc; 10th January 2020 at 22:43.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobc View Post
    Appreciate that the OP has posted about speculating on gold but the flip sides which can also work is as a long term investment and could also work as non taxable inheritance .
    True, one of my close friends is a jeweller specialising in gold, he has mentioned this a few times.

  29. #29
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    1oz Britannia's are quite a good way of investing. VAT except (unlike foreign coins/bullion), are not subject to CGT and for inheritance purposes are valued at face value (£100) rather than actual value which is over £1000.

    Something nice for the kiddies.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    1oz Britannia's are quite a good way of investing. VAT except (unlike foreign coins/bullion), are not subject to CGT and for inheritance purposes are valued at face value (£100) rather than actual value which is over £1000.

    Something nice for the kiddies.
    Often wondered what would happen if 104 year old “Mr Smith” who had 5 million quid in the bank as well as a newly diagnosed terminal illness, decided to buy £5,000,000 of Britannia coins before he died.

    Would the treasury have tax his pot of gold at face value ( Britannias have a face value of £100) or would they be able to tax it at market value?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Would the treasury have tax his pot of gold at face value ( Britannias have a face value of £100) or would they be able to tax it at market value?
    Unless someone can point to something authoritative to the contrary, it’s MV for me. Never heard it suggested that legal tender ‘value’ was relevant. It would be such a trivially easy way to legally avoid IHT.

    Obviously they can be transferred by physical delivery and so theoretically IHT can be (illegally) evaded if the executors aren’t aware of the coins or involve themselves in the evasion.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    Unless someone can point to something authoritative to the contrary, it’s MV for me. Never heard it suggested that legal tender ‘value’ was relevant. It would be such a trivially easy way to legally avoid IHT.

    Obviously they can be transferred by physical delivery and so theoretically IHT can be (illegally) evaded if the executors aren’t aware of the coins or involve themselves in the evasion.
    What if the executors had power of attorney and decided it was in Mr Smiths best interests to buy the gold? Then nothing illegal would have happened and IHT would be avoided against the £5M? There is nothing illegal in buying gold?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    Then nothing illegal would have happened and IHT would be avoided against the £5M? There is nothing illegal in buying gold?
    if you are saying that IHT law requires you to look at the nominal value of the coins rather than MV, I’m saying I was never told that when I did my training. If someone can point to the legislation to say that such a “loophole” exists, I’ll be the first to use it.

  34. #34
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    Interesting on the IHT. Will do some further digging on this. If indeed they can transfer at nominal value rather than MV that could be a serious loophole. Something tells me HMRC would have closed this loophole by now.

  35. #35

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Often wondered what would happen if 104 year old “Mr Smith” who had 5 million quid in the bank as well as a newly diagnosed terminal illness, decided to buy £5,000,000 of Britannia coins before he died.

    Would the treasury have tax his pot of gold at face value ( Britannias have a face value of £100) or would they be able to tax it at market value?

    Inheritance tax applies to the value of the estate, however its unclear to me whether HMRC would value 10 tons of legal pennies of the face value of 10 tons of pennies or it's value in scrap. So I imagine the same could be applied to Britannia's.

    Thinking about it I suspect HMRC would simply value legal Uk currency at it highest value whether its face value or commodity value. In which case a Kew Garden 50p could be valued at £150 quid rather 50p face value, or 10p scrap value.

    All I do know for certain is if you paid £1000 for a sovereign or Britannia, and sold it for £2k, then its free from CGT and VAT.

    Minefield. I will investigate further with my IFA and see what he says.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweepinghand View Post
    I know there are a good few gold speculators on here - and I was looking at my graphs etc via the net - astonishing 17% overall rise on an ounce for a year today
    £170 return on a grand is frankly awesome

    The Iran "scare" caused a small "blip" - but overall im glad to say that the folk I know who also bought are doing well in the current uncertainty of Brexit, Mexit, Iran, Trump, fires etc

    Do any of you set a trade out price as such - ie a checkout price which if it hits you sell?
    iShares Physical Gold ETC (GBP)

    ^ try this ^.

  38. #38
    Looks like the price of gold is soaring due to uncertainty caused by the coronavirus.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffcotton View Post
    iShares Physical Gold ETC (GBP)

    ^ try this ^.
    Do they actually buy gold when people invest or does the fund just track the price and your investment just gets invested elsewhere by iShares ?

  40. #40
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    I have physical gold as part of a diversified portfolio ( would not just have physical) , both bullion and Numismatic , as I have isas( cash & S&S which has gold funds ), premium bonds ( you never know! and you can have your money back :-))
    I am currently collecting the QB gold coins it nice to have something you can touch , admire etc unlike shares, and if you believe the SWHTF then paper fiat money may/will become useless ?

  41. #41
    Petropavlovsk “POG” is a very leveraged gold play

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    Looks like the price of gold is soaring due to uncertainty caused by the coronavirus.
    Not just because of Coronavirus, but yes certainly an additional factor

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by klunk View Post
    Not just because of Coronavirus, but yes certainly an additional factor
    Yes you’re quite right sir! Just basing it on an email I received from Bullion by Post yesterday. A quick excerpt...


    The rally, started by tech giant Apple's warning over the impact of the Covid-19 outbreak, has continued at a steady pace all week. This has been boosted by further warnings from airlines Air France-KLM and Qantas, as well as shipping company Maersk. In another worrying sign today, China's car association reported a staggering 92% drop in car sales.

    I bought an ounce in June last year just to see what an ounce of gold looks like really! Thinking of selling next week. The bulk of
    It can go towards a watch purchase and the profit can be spent on frivolous things.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch1956 View Post
    I have physical gold as part of a diversified portfolio ( would not just have physical) , both bullion and Numismatic , as I have isas( cash & S&S which has gold funds ), premium bonds ( you never know! and you can have your money back :-))
    I am currently collecting the QB gold coins it nice to have something you can touch , admire etc unlike shares, and if you believe the SWHTF then paper fiat money may/will become useless ?
    Do you hold the actual gold or use funds?

    SWHTF?
    Last edited by Montello; 22nd February 2020 at 15:02.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Do they actually buy gold when people invest or does the fund just track the price and your investment just gets invested elsewhere by iShares ?
    It's not a fund, but a collateralised note (reason being that you cannot buy physical commodities into a UCITS fund). You do have some credit risk on the issuer, which is relevant if you are buying gold to protect yourself against the zombie apocalypse - that's what they are trying to address with the collateralisation.

    Trouble is that you still cannot use the gold for barter trade against canned food and guns in case of the apocalypse (which you could if you bought coins).

    And to answer your question: yes, they are buying fresh quantities of physical gold for every new investment into the note.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    It's not a fund, but a collateralised note (reason being that you cannot buy physical commodities into a UCITS fund). You do have some credit risk on the issuer, which is relevant if you are buying gold to protect yourself against the zombie apocalypse - that's what they are trying to address with the collateralisation.

    Trouble is that you still cannot use the gold for barter trade against canned food and guns in case of the apocalypse (which you could if you bought coins).

    And to answer your question: yes, they are buying fresh quantities of physical gold for every new investment into the note.

    So their gold holding matches the find value give or take a bit.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    So their gold holding matches the find value give or take a bit.
    Yes, but it is not formally held on behalf of the investors like a regulated fund would be. Investors are owning a claim against the issuer, they don't own a fraction of the gold. That claim is collateralised with the gold, which is held in escrow.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Yes, but it is not formally held on behalf of the investors like a regulated fund would be. Investors are owning a claim against the issuer, they don't own a fraction of the gold. That claim is collateralised with the gold, which is held in escrow.
    I see. So what would a regulated fund look like and would there be any advantages?

    I guess this is the cheapest way to “own” or at least have a stake in physical gold.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I see. So what would a regulated fund look like and would there be any advantages?

    I guess this is the cheapest way to “own” or at least have a stake in physical gold.
    A regulated fund cannot own physical gold due to limitations in UCITS regulations. The only way to own gold in a proper fund is via financial derivatives, which doesn't protect you in case you are fearing the (financial) zombie apocalypse. Actually, the iShares Physical Gold ETC doesnt really help you during the apocalypse either, because you still need the issuer and a bank to liquidate its value and it can only be paid out in fiat money.

    If you really want the protection of physical gold (including the possibility to use it to buy goods and services), you will need to buy physical gold, i.e. gold bars or gold coins.

    However, if you are not worried about the apocalypse and your aim is to introduce diversification into your portfolio and to protect against inflation, the iShares ETC is a suitable investment.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    A regulated fund cannot own physical gold due to limitations in UCITS regulations. The only way to own gold in a proper fund is via financial derivatives, which doesn't protect you in case you are fearing the (financial) zombie apocalypse. Actually, the iShares Physical Gold ETC doesnt really help you during the apocalypse either, because you still need the issuer and a bank to liquidate its value and it can only be paid out in fiat money.

    If you really want the protection of physical gold (including the possibility to use it to buy goods and services), you will need to buy physical gold, i.e. gold bars or gold coins.

    However, if you are not worried about the apocalypse and your aim is to introduce diversification into your portfolio and to protect against inflation, the iShares ETC is a suitable investment.
    If I was worried about the zombie apocalypse I’d buy guns not gold.

    If you have guns you can help yourself to other people’s gold during the apocalypse.

    Am I correct to assume not all gold price etfs are not backed by physical gold?

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