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Thread: Goldsmiths doing goldsmith things..........

  1. #1
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    Goldsmiths doing goldsmith things..........

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eb1c951448.jpg

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...520251ff66.jpg
    I cannot believe that ADs can do this. I know goldsmiths arenít the only ones out there doing it but surely they shouldnít be allowed to sell second hand watches for nearly double what they sell new. I mean how can they honestly say that these watches are sold to waiting lists, these are 100% sold to the Ads, friends, pals of pals for sneaky back handers. The whole Rolex thing for me just pure and utter stinks. Those dodgy bar stewards at the bull ring branch are 100% at it also like sneaking links out of boxes to sell on and numerous Rolex bits. Rolex need to have a long hard look and think who they give there AD status. Surely this is a conflict of interest. So very very shady!
    Do apologise if this has been discussed before.


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    Last edited by fordystar; 8th January 2020 at 22:59.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by fordystar View Post
    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eb1c951448.jpg

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...520251ff66.jpg
    I cannot believe that ADs can do this. I know goldsmiths arenít the only ones out there doing it but surely they shouldnít be allowed to sell second hand watches for nearly double what they sell new. I mean how can they honestly say that these watches are sold to waiting lists, these are 100% sold to the Ads, friends, pals of pals for sneaky back handers. The whole Rolex thing for me just pure and utter stinks. Those dodgy bar stewards at the bull ring branch are 100% at it also like sneaking links out of boxes to sell on and numerous Rolex bits. Rolex need to have a long hard look and think who they give there AD status.



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    This happens at lots of other ADs too...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairn1980 View Post
    This happens at lots of other ADs too...
    Yes it does. We don't like them either.

  4. #4
    Master ~dadam02~'s Avatar
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    They're all at it, especially the ones who tell you they aren't.

  5. #5
    Craftsman Artium's Avatar
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    These are very scandalous practices, Rolex must imperatively resolve these kinds of problems before the brand is perceived as mafia.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~dadam02~ View Post
    They're all at it, especially the ones who tell you they aren't.
    Really is shocking behaviour.

  7. #7
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    All this stinks, I like many people are really tired of the hoops you are supposed to jump through to spend your hard earned on these trinkets.
    It would be ok if you were treated fairly and had a fighting chance!
    I have moved onto enjoying other brands.

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  8. #8
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    In my opinion it reminds me off the 1980s when yuppies were buying porsche 911 for more than the show room price at the garages , but if people are buying then thatís were the market is at , itís a crazy world lol

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblue View Post
    In my opinion it reminds me off the 1980s when yuppies were buying porsche 911 for more than the show room price at the garages , but if people are buying then thatís were the market is at , itís a crazy world lol
    And that still happens now!

    Agreed on the spirit of the OP. Very annoying and not fun!

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  10. #10
    They offered me 10.6k for my blnr so what are they meant to do, sell it for 6.5k after, or offer me £4k? Imagine a car dealer with no used stock. This happens with cars too although granted not with Fiestas or S Class saloons and not too often.

  11. #11
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    I get your point Wiley, but if Rolex actually dislike the inflated grey prices (I'm not sure they do), perhaps they should insist if a shop is an AD, it gives up any used Rolex trading completely.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordystar View Post
    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eb1c951448.jpg

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...520251ff66.jpg
    I cannot believe that ADs can do this. I know goldsmiths arenít the only ones out there doing it but surely they shouldnít be allowed to sell second hand watches for nearly double what they sell new.
    Neither references can be purchased new, they seem to be no more than most others are asking, would would you rather they do?

  13. #13
    I get your point also but if Rolex do that then how do they get customers to trade in? Do they have an agreement with WF as mentioned by Martyn when buying his VC Overseas and take a bit off the top or tell you to go sell it elsewhere?

    Root cause of this issue lies with Rolex not the AD. The AD can only manage the situation in the interim. Could be worse, they could go full car dealer and pre-reg. Sell themselves a Daytona or two then chuck it in the window as used... I'm sure no one wants that.

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    Yes I agree it would be be perfect and would not stop flipping. It might help Rolex and their ads seem cleaner though... But that's about all.

  15. #15
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    Been at it years Goldsmiths trade ins etc... They have a website page dedicated to buying watches...
    But things evolve a lot of brands want to muscle in to pre-owned market for trade ins, AP trialed it in Switzerland and was great success, and want to roll out boutiques with pre-owned tag group been talking about also Breitling group and it does make sense. Do you think Rolex not thought about it?

    For years all these brands only interested in selling new but over the next 10 years see how many have there own boutique for pre-owned.

    Look at Richmond group buying watchfinder ? Ready made retail out let for selling all watch brands pre-owned.

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    Master ~dadam02~'s Avatar
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    So how does this work, assuming I'm on a supposed 'expression of interest' with Goldsmith's, who we know dislike flippers. Say I take a watch in for trade in/sell, do I then get classed a flipper and subsequently have my 'expression of interest' removed?

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    It is hypocrisy. We are keeping your warranty card, we are removing your stickers. We only want customers who keep their watch, hand down to their kids.

    You want to trade in to us? Sure! We can make money on that and we are both quids in.

    Having said all that there are some very nice independent retailers and this is the route I now take when buying any watch, Rolex or otherwise. (Of course, experience may vary in different parts of the country, but around me this is the conclusion)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    It is hypocrisy. We are keeping your warranty card, we are removing your stickers. We only want customers who keep their watch, hand down to their kids.

    You want to trade in to us? Sure! We can make money on that and we are both quids in.

    Having said all that there are some very nice independent retailers and this is the route I now take when buying any watch, Rolex or otherwise. (Of course, experience may vary in different parts of the country, but around me this is the conclusion)
    I try and do this as well, for one thing I just find it a nicer experience and more personal. I don't doubt you could achieve the same at a goldsmiths branch, but family owned independents have so far just been a nicer experience for me.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordystar View Post
    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eb1c951448.jpg

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...520251ff66.jpg
    I cannot believe that ADs can do this. I know goldsmiths arenít the only ones out there doing it but surely they shouldnít be allowed to sell second hand watches for nearly double what they sell new. I mean how can they honestly say that these watches are sold to waiting lists, these are 100% sold to the Ads, friends, pals of pals for sneaky back handers. The whole Rolex thing for me just pure and utter stinks. Those dodgy bar stewards at the bull ring branch are 100% at it also like sneaking links out of boxes to sell on and numerous Rolex bits. Rolex need to have a long hard look and think who they give there AD status. Surely this is a conflict of interest. So very very shady!
    Do apologise if this has been discussed before.

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    Is tz-uk member Hatman14 / Lee B****** still there?

  20. #20
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    Goldsmiths doing goldsmith things..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Is tz-uk member Hatman14 / Lee B****** still there?
    the man that can. He took all his listings down with the Rolex bits and bobs when I reported him to the aurum group. Dodgy character!!!!! Iím sure he looks in from time to time.


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurasOtherHalf View Post
    Neither references can be purchased new,
    I believe that is the distinction my AD applies (not that I recall seeing any pre-owned "popular" models).

  22. #22
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    I for one wouldn't shed any tears if they lost their Rolex status or indeed went bust. It takes special training to work there and it has little to do with customer service.

  23. #23
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    I'm sure if Rolex really wanted to get a control on the Grey Market pricing, instant flipping of new stock, I'm sure they could but I suspect they are happy to publically be condoning it but behind closed doors rubbing their hands !!

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by AberBoy View Post
    I'm sure if Rolex really wanted to get a control on the Grey Market pricing, instant flipping of new stock, I'm sure they could but I suspect they are happy to publically be condoning it but behind closed doors rubbing their hands !!
    If that's true and what they want they could just increase RRP by 30-50% on 'hot models'. Would calm it down a bit and make them more money. Watches selling on the secondary market make Rolex nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    If that's true and what they want they could just increase RRP by 30-50% on 'hot models'. Would calm it down a bit and make them more money. Watches selling on the secondary market make Rolex nothing.
    Other than keeping demand high !

    If Rolex increased RRP by 30-50% without making steel sports models readily available, it would simply push the Grey Market prices up too. The only way to curb the hideous mark up of the Grey Market models is to make the watches available at the AD.

  26. #26
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    The thing you forget you still need to get the end user to pay the premium judging by sales section latley people seem to be a hesitant to pay.
    Same as prices are falling cause folk not peeling the new batman is flying down part from watchfinder still wanted 16k you can buy them unworn elswwhere for £12ish off dealers, so what they buying in at?

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    Last edited by bokbok; 9th January 2020 at 12:17.

  27. #27
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    The last I heard pre-xmas Watchfinder were offering late 8's, early 9's for a BLNR. Be interested to know what that is now though.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~dadam02~ View Post
    The last I heard pre-xmas Watchfinder were offering late 8's, early 9's for a BLNR. Be interested to know what that is now though.
    That's why sales corner flurry lol

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bokbok View Post
    That's why sales corner flurry lol

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    Yes. Hulkís and blnr a plenty across a few platforms. Seemed to coincide with the watchfinder sale. Makes you wonder if this sale was a tactic to test market and maybe build up stocks at a reduced rate then hold stock back and push prices up in coming year. Itís all guess work but itís all pretty shady and underhanded stuff for me. I have a fair few Rolexes and mainly hard to get SS models but this whole load of dribble is making me think sell them all off now and buy one special watch which is a shame really.


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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordystar View Post
    Yes. Hulkís and blnr a plenty across a few platforms. Seemed to coincide with the watchfinder sale. Makes you wonder if this sale was a tactic to test market and maybe build up stocks at a reduced rate then hold stock back and push prices up in coming year. Itís all guess work but itís all pretty shady and underhanded stuff for me. I have a fair few Rolexes and mainly hard to get SS models but this whole load of dribble is making me think sell them all off now and buy one special watch which is a shame really.


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    The problem was every one benchmark watchfinder prices on website to what they would like. A year or so ago every sales post had watchfinders offer on Rolex not no more cause its lower than what they want.
    The bottom line is prices can be as high as they want but still need to sell the watch itself now people seem to be hesitant to peel 5k / 6k over Rrp it seems



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  31. #31
    Not sure I agree Rolex need to increase supply of the scarce models.
    How many of us would jump at the chance of buying a new steel Pepsi at list price if we were
    fortunate enough to walk by an AD when they were putting one in the window?
    Iíd say most of us if we had the spare dollar would buy it without a second thought - itís a no brainer... however we all recall when new Hulks sat unloved in the AD windows......and if steel Pepsiís were in shops everywhere us lot wouldnít be celebrating we could buy one at list price- most of us wouldnít bother buying one at all.

    I recall years ago seeing unworn steel Subs on SC that were being sold below list price and they languished for weeks until eventually selling .
    Rolex have got the supply and demand thing spot on- thatís why we chase and cherish these models.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LondonNeil View Post
    I get your point Wiley, but if Rolex actually dislike the inflated grey prices (I'm not sure they do), perhaps they should insist if a shop is an AD, it gives up any used Rolex trading completely.
    Supply of new Rolex watches is kept deliberately lower than demand as this keeps second hand prices high, which in turn fuels demand.
    If they actually made enough to satisfy the current demand, then both the second hand prices would tank and the illusion of exclusivity would vanish. As a result, the demand would drop and, ironically, they'd have a surplus.

    It's a very well calculated game to raise the perception of the brand.


    If you don't like the game, don't play.

  33. #33
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    I'm sure if Goldsmiths or whoever took a large delivery and starting phoning all those people on the waiting lists, most would decline if they knew there was no possibility of flipping. There would probably be a small hardcore delighted to get one and they would look to keep hold.

    I would never buy anything non watch related now from any store that had a Rolex franchise out of principal. Petty I know, but I would rather give my custom to someone who doesn't screw their customers.

  34. #34
    If rolex flooded the market with watches and you could not make any money flipping I recon you will see a lot of unsold watches in AD windows.

  35. #35
    These debates always talk about no supply or flooding the market. There is a middle ground. Rolex might have the right idea in theory but could do with adjusting the tap a bit.

  36. #36
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    Goldsmiths doing goldsmith things..........

    Rolex will see this, ban the ADs and start supplying watches to meet demand.

    Or ďhello Mr Customer, I can put you on a 5 year waiting list for a £7k watch or sell you said watch for £13k?















    And I am back in the room!

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    Here's a great video from Paul Thorpe suggesting a way of ridding the market of The Rolex Flipper, pay 100% upfront to Rolex for a guranteed within 12 months delivery, video goes into more depth but I seriously believe it would work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uuJn5_EFg

  38. #38
    Person 1: have you used up your ISA allowance for the year?
    Person 2: I haven't used an ISA in years, i normally chuck £20k per year into WoS and then cash in at WF 12 months later

  39. #39
    Master ~dadam02~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AberBoy View Post
    Here's a great video from Paul Thorpe suggesting a way of ridding the market of The Rolex Flipper, pay 100% upfront to Rolex for a guranteed within 12 months delivery, video goes into more depth but I seriously believe it would work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uuJn5_EFg
    There are already many reports of people being asked to pay 100% upfront and do they get their watches within 12 months? Do they diddly.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    If rolex flooded the market with watches and you could not make any money flipping I recon you will see a lot of unsold watches in AD windows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I'm sure if Goldsmiths or whoever took a large delivery and starting phoning all those people on the waiting lists, most would decline if they knew there was no possibility of flipping.
    Quote Originally Posted by farmkid View Post
    .and if steel Pepsiís were in shops everywhere us lot wouldnít be celebrating we could buy one at list price- most of us wouldnít bother buying one at all.
    Exactly! Which is why it's slightly odd people saying Rolex have got their marketing "right". People who want watches to wear can't get them at list. People who want to flip for a profit can!


    Quote Originally Posted by mikeveal View Post
    If you don't like the game, don't play.
    I don't want to play any game, I would just like to have a reasonable chance of buying a watch I want to buy to wear at list price from an AD!

  41. #41
    Regular customers who buy watches to wear don't buy enough to be VIP customers so don't get the watches they want. I typically try to buy one per year for example and do wear them.

    Flippers who are able to become VIP customers (in whole or part) by flipping watches and coming back for more and more and more have the red carpet rolled out and are offered quote a lot of nice watches which will never make their way to the window.

    Yet "Rolex have the demand/supply perfect". Not sure how?

  42. #42
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    Over priced second hand watches selling----- Mmmm a fool and his money? Nobody is forced into paying over the odds are they?

  43. #43
    Grand Master Griswold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeveal View Post
    Supply of new Rolex watches is kept deliberately lower than demand as this keeps second hand prices high, which in turn fuels demand.
    If they actually made enough to satisfy the current demand, then both the second hand prices would tank and the illusion of exclusivity would vanish. As a result, the demand would drop and, ironically, they'd have a surplus.

    It's a very well calculated game to raise the perception of the brand.


    If you don't like the game, don't play.
    I don't, so I won't.












    p.s. There isn't a current Rolex model I like anyway.
    Best Regards - Peter

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  44. #44
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    Illusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitfitter View Post
    Over priced second hand watches selling----- Mmmm a fool and his money? Nobody is forced into paying over the odds are they?
    100% correct. Paying for an illusion of exclusivity, not sure you will see that in the Rolex marketing blurb.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    I don't want to play any game, I would just like to have a reasonable chance of buying a watch I want to buy to wear at list price from an AD!
    You're making the mistake of viewing the value of a Rolex as a functional object. Maybe the first 5 to 10% of the price can be attributed to that. The rest is pure veblen goods. This is true of all luxury brands, not just Rolex.

    In order for Rolex to remain as desirable as they currently are, they must not meet market demand. Not doing so actually increases demand and prices allowing them to sell more at higher margins. Rolex are the masters of this.


    I've emboldened some of your text as it's important for you to understand your motive.
    Imagine the exact model you want. Now step into with me into an alternate reality. That watch is in a shop window at the exact same list price, available now. Hell, you could buy a hundred if you wanted, the shops have plenty. But instead of "Rolex" on the dial, it says "Casio". The materials & processes used to make it are exactly the same, the quality is exactly the same, it was even hand made on the same mechanised assembly line.

    Rolex still exist, still selling everything except this variant of this model. The only thing that's changed is that in this reality, that one exact variant that you desire is made by Casio. Everything else in Casio's range is exactly the same middle low end stuff that they have in our universe.


    Would you pay the Rolex list price for that Casio?

    This being a watch forum, I suspect there are some die-hards here that would. But I even here the majority would answer that question honestly with a "No."

    So this thought experiment leads to another question. If you wouldn't pay Rolex list price for the Casio, what would you pay?

    The answer is the true value of the material goods that you want to buy, and should illustrate the difference between value, price and the craziness of the veblen effect.


    Just for clarity, I don't claim to be immune from the veblen effect. I like "stuff" too. But I think that a little understanding of how these companies create demand for their products helps us make better spending decisions.

  46. #46
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    The above has already been illustrated by the initial difficulty even WIS initially had to buy GS.
    Over the last 10/15 years, mainly thanks to the internet, people outside Japan have started to realise where GS fits on the luxury watch market. But you will still have people who Ďwouldnít pay that price for a Seikoí.
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikGixer750 View Post
    If rolex flooded the market with watches and you could not make any money flipping I recon you will see a lot of unsold watches in AD windows.
    I think that sums it up nicely, most of the demand is artificial and its being fuelled by profiteers, its a vicious circle.

    Make buyers pay the full price up-front on proviso that the watch is supplied within 12 months, thatíll sort the wheat from the chaff. Also insist that the payment is cash or bank transfer, no credit cards, thatíll help to get rid of the speculators who are trying to make a profit using borrowed money.......also known as smug gits.

    Iíd also ban sale of watches on SC above list price if theyíre models that are still currently available new.....but thatís one for Eddie.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I think that sums it up nicely, most of the demand is artificial and its being fuelled by profiteers, its a vicious circle.

    Make buyers pay the full price up-front on proviso that the watch is supplied within 12 months, thatíll sort the wheat from the chaff. Also insist that the payment is cash or bank transfer, no credit cards, thatíll help to get rid of the speculators who are trying to make a profit using borrowed money.......also known as smug gits.

    Iíd also ban sale of watches on SC above list price if theyíre models that are still currently available new.....but thatís one for Eddie.
    The demand is not solely fuelled by profiteers. They just help accelerate the process.

    Can you see the irony of complaining that you* can't get something you want when the reason you want it is that you can't get it?
    *Not necessarily you personally.


    Why the hell would Rolex act to stop any of this? It is all very good for their business.
    Do not be a fool, do not play their game.

    Hint: If under supplying the market fuels demand, then logically the way to get what you want at list prices is to show utter disinterest!
    Crazy world innit?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    ...

    Make buyers pay the full price up-front on proviso that the watch is supplied within 12 months, thatíll sort the wheat from the chaff. Also insist that the payment is cash or bank transfer, no credit cards, thatíll help to get rid of the speculators who are trying to make a profit using borrowed money.......also known as smug gits.

    ...
    I donít think the above would help at all, would just guarantee that the profiteers would get watches to sell on within known time frames. Donít forget that you the need for an established relationship is something that the ADs have created, they manage the list and therefore who they sell to.

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    The Veblen effect does not work on everyone. Many of us who are a little older and have an interest in Rolex developed our first love of the brand from a long running advertising campaign they had, in particular, full page adverts in National Geographic. The selling point was that they were engineered and designed for all these aspirational activities. Exploring jungles and deserts, polar expeditions, pioneering aviation feats, exploring the oceans, working on a nuclear submarine. The brand ambassadors were adventurers and heroes. This type of marketing creates a desirability that cannot get old or be ‘played out’.

    In modern times, the adverts are more like standard jewellery adverts and do not inspire me at all. In fact I barely remember any of them. Tennis players and Hollywood actors - not very inspiring. Being expensive for the sake of being expensive is a complete turn off for me. And todays ‘must have’ fashion/veblen things can easily become tomorrows old, passť thing.

    In the old advertising, they created a concept that people on these forums used to love talking about but is less seen now. The idea of a tool watch. Real tools cannot easily be reconciled with Veblen.

    Anyway, I think the old advertising was great and started a popularity that has caught the attention of the next generation who have learnt they are great watches but not why they are. I also think Rolex have manoeuvred themselves into a situation that looks great in the short and mid term but has no long term viability. It will lead to a crisis where eventually they cannot keep inflating the price for ever as their sales volume will eventually drop into irrelevance. A new generation is growing up now who think of the brand in a quite different way and they will not be as loyal when the ever increasing brand fatigue takes full effect.

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