Reply With QuoteDepending on the flooring you have, under-floor heating is pretty effective. Big disruption to install though.
All my life I've lived in homes with gas central heating, but in the new year I'll be moving into a flat in a building which only has electricity, and so need to do some learning, quickly.
Currently there are storage heaters, presumably in place since the flat was built in the mid 90s. They work fine, but are large things and I was wondering what my options would be for replacing them.
Fitting an electric central heating system isn't really feasible. There are two flats beneath, and one above, with one on either side, so the space doesn't tend towards being cold.
I'm not convinced that storage heaters are the best way of heating a space I'll only be wanting heated in evenings / weekends. But perhaps they are, in which case, are there more modern, compact designs?
Links to good solid information I can read up on would be very much appreciated: this seems the perfect way of spending Sunday 29 December.....
Depending on the flooring you have, under-floor heating is pretty effective. Big disruption to install though.
Sorry I should have been clearer: fitting any kind of home-wide system isn't feasible at the moment, and I don't think the space is large enough to be worth it; by "replacing" the existing heaters I literally meant, what other pieces of electrical equipment could go in their places in the rooms once I've removed them?
My parents moved into a flat with two large storage heaters. I was quite cynical about them.
I cleaned them out, changed a broken thermostat and made sure the were on a good economy 7 tarrif (8 pence per kwh).
They work fine and store enough heat for the entire flat for day and evening and doesn’t cost as much as i thought.
Hot water is from an immersion heater so that is also powered at night for a set duration with a boost option for daytime but it’s never needed.
My parents are happy which is saying something Hahahaha.
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What I have read so far....
1. Economy 7 plans are doomed in the long term
2. Economy 7 plans are not doomed in the long term
3. Electric radiators are more expensive to run
4. Electric radiators are less expensive to run
5. Modern storage heaters aren't much more efficient than old ones
6. Modern storage heaters are a bit better at saving the heat until the evening though
7. Adverts for German heating systems produce a warmth and reassurance all of their own
8. Developers who don't include a gas supply are first against the wall when the revolution comes
....on I trudge.
My Mother has the German ones (Fischer?) - no better than standard heaters TBH, just lot of marketing hype. Costs her a fortune.
With all of them it's 1 kW in, 1 kW out so in that sense they're equally efficient. Difference is how long they will retain the heat and possibly how much is stored based upon the predicted next day's temperature (if they do this at all).
Infra red seems to be gaining popularity in these circumstances
My first impression is that the heat it produces isn't very homely. I know its efficient not to be heating the air, but I rather like the feeling of moving through the warm air of a nicely heated home.Originally Posted by numberjack
Also, and I'm not sure I've understood this entirely correctly, as the benefit ceases the moment its turned off then no warmth at all will linger overnight.
Thank you for that. I am getting the impression that the main benefit in replacing one storage heater with another is aesthetic.
I think you need to live with the system for a few months before thinking about changing anything.
Certain storage heaters are adjustable, basically you can adj how much they heat up overnight and adj how much they give out during the day/evening.
Make sure you're on the best tariff as well, but be aware, if you're on economy 7, or whatever they call it nowadays, you'll pay more per kw during the day, ( that's how it used to work ).
The bottom line is that electricity is a relatively expensive fuel for space heating. Unless you want major upheaval I’d err towards something that uses an off peak tariff which basically means overnight storage heaters.
A couple of storage heaters in hallway and living rooms should produce adequate heating for the following days assuming the property is reasonably well insulated. Also have a secondary heat source in the living area in case you want to top it up on cold evenings.
Don’t put a storage heater in bedroom(s) unless you like sleeping in a sauna! just put in a small timed convection heater to keep the chill off in the mornings.
p.s. I once surveyed a property with a conventional wet radiator system, but powered by electric boilers. It worked but was apparently eye wateringly expensive, like having an immersion heater running all day. It was turned off and occupants has resorted to convector heaters...
Apparently gas heating will be banned in new build homes soon, which only means it's a one-way street for the rest of us too. Better get used to it I guess unless they can come up with something clever very quickly to replace gas boilers.
Storage radiators are a very slow-response system. They can be very cheap in that you don’t have annual servicing costs or standing charges for gas. I’m not up to date on prices but it always used to be that daytime electricity was about 4x the price of gas therm-for-therm, offset somewhat by cheaper overnight electricity.
The main thing is to keep an eye on the inside and outside air temperatures and adjust the input to the radiators accordingly. (Small adjustments.) If there’s a cold spell forecast nudge them up half a notch. Conversely if it turns mild. If that sounds too obvious or patronising it’s not meant to be, because what happens if the setting is left on high the temperature creeps up insidiously, becomes unbearably hot and quite difficult to stabilise to comfortable again.
If you turn storage radiators down because it’s hot inside you’ll feel cold inside which is unpleasant. If you turn them down because it’s warmer outside you’ll be ok. Hope this makes sense!
Yes, probably inevitable in the medium term. For new build there are already good alternatives; air- or ground-source heat pumps supplying underfloor heating. Although they don’t (or didn’t when I last looked) really run hot enough for radiators.
The problem is going to be in renovating older properties where it unrealistic to retrofit such technologies.
Thank you very much for all these thoughts, I've been able to do a lot of good thinking.
I think this is proving to be the most important factor for me:
I want more versatility, and if that costs me a bit more to run, that's fine. It's only a small space and my outgoings can take having an electricity bill a bit higher than ideal. I'm now going to be looking at the various kinds of electric radiators.
One nearby flat I also looked at had one of these, and the boiler was enormous and terrifying - quite the opposite of the nimble versatile gas combi I had in my old place. My new flat simply hasn't a suitable space for something like that, so I'm glad to hear that it would be a waste of money anyway!
When we bought a mid terrace house years back we wanted a quick and easy installation solution for heating. We had some slimline storage heaters put in and were surprised at how well they worked. After all the horror stories we'd heard about them they turned out to be a cost effective solution. When we sold it didn't seem to affect the price, but it was in the boom years tbh when prices were going up at an eye watering rate.
We used this brand........
https://www.dimplex.co.uk/storage-heaters
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Are you mistaking the clyinder with the electric boiler ?Thank you very much for all these thoughts, I've been able to do a lot of good thinking.
I think this is proving to be the most important factor for me:
I want more versatility, and if that costs me a bit more to run, that's fine. It's only a small space and my outgoings can take having an electricity bill a bit higher than ideal. I'm now going to be looking at the various kinds of electric radiators.
One nearby flat I also looked at had one of these, and the boiler was enormous and terrifying - quite the opposite of the nimble versatile gas combi I had in my old place. My new flat simply hasn't a suitable space for something like that, so I'm glad to hear that it would be a waste of money anyway!
The electric ones are really compact and much smaller than gas ones .
I have a few rental flats which are let out as serviced apartments which have a central heating system powered by an electric boiler. I have no idea why the developer didn’t just put in a normal electric convector heater as they’re well insulated.
If they are get some nice modern aluminium ones that heat a gel inside . They heat up like normal central heating radiator and the heat is constant.
We’re removing the electric boilers as they break down in the rentals and replacing with convector heaters .
I've been looking at what's available. Two brands that have caught my eye so far are Haverland and Ecostrad. Comparing like for like on the radiators, the Ecostrad seem to cost about another 25%. I feel drawn to that, presumably for the same reason that people choose the second cheapest bottle on the wine list.
I also think I prefer the thought of electrical radiators to convection heaters. The reassuring warmth of extra expense at work again.
Electric radiators do largely work by convection though you’re probably thinking of convection fan heaters - some storage ‘radiators’ also have fans to speed heat output.
The visible difference is that the convection heaters have an open panel along the top, whereas the radiators look more like traditional radiators (which I know also work more by convection than radiation)
I revamped my electric only 80’s built flat recently.
I went for the quantum storage heaters with the ‘brain’ and a properly insulated core and fan to distribute the heat.
They are well worth the extra cost as you no longer have to fiddle with the crude input/output controls of the old style units. In the past I would have 25° temps in the morning in a vain attempt to have some residual heat available in the evening. Now I have heat when I want it and can even tell them when I’m away so they will store heat overnight the day before I return. The new ones have an app to control them.
Lots of claims out there about savings with other types of heater but 1kw is 1kw and the efficiencies between types are not much different. What is different about the quantum’s is the control over using cheap nightime electricity. My bills didn’t change much but I was warm! So their claim of 20-25% savings is not unreasonable
This may sound like an advert but I’m really impressed with them. Downsides are a low hum from a fan which is more noticeable when it stops (much the same as a gas boiler turning off)
I don’t have one in the bedroom as the heat from the hallway one is enough for me but I’ll probably add some kind of instant rad with a timer just for the few weeks of sub zero mornings in the winter.
I pay about £550 a year for my economy 7 and have a new efficient direct fill cylinder fitted. If I was on normal electric rads my bill would be way higher. Most I ever spent in a month was £90 in the very cold winter we had a few years ago and I was working from home.
Have you looked at ceramic panel heaters. They are modern, can be painted to match walls, relatively cheap/ low wattage, sleek and easily controlled. Well worth a look. Especially if as you say your place tends not to be overly cold it could be just the thing for a little top up heating. They are very good.
I have Haverlands in my house. For a while I ran them on WiFi sockets and controlled them from timed schedules using my phone. Unfortunately, this wasn't as reliable and it should have been (two of the sockets melted) and so I now just use their built in timers. I also have a couple of tall rads using the Terma thermostats which have schedules one can set via Bluetooth. Unfortunately, the Bluetooth connection is pretty flakey. Once the schedule is set though, they are fine. I use Igloo's tariff, which is the cheapest for our usage. We spend a bit under £300 a month for all of our electricity, including our immersion heater. This perhaps sounds a lot, but the house is heated all day as my family is in much of the time.
If I were to do it again, I would just have gone ground source (we have this in our house in Sweden and the bills are so low) when we had our house in pieces. Unfortunately, it is now just too intrusive to install a wet system.
Wow £300 per month, looking on comparison sites UK average bill £1200 ish??
Ground source is the future, but every new home needs to be built to passive spec to solve the heating conundrum.
Four bed detached house with someone home all the time and electricity is our only fuel, no gas, oil, etc. Our direct debit is £298, but I don't think it will work out that much. We are home schooling at the moment as our local school has fallen apart, so the house is in fairly heavy use currently (as opposed to having lulls in the day when heating could be switched off).
No, it isn't cheap, but nor is it absolutely horrendous either. Our last house was marginally bigger and we spent £100+ish on electricity and that again on gas, during times when electricity at least was cheaper (understandably, I've not paid much attention to gas prices).
Sad that ground and air source is very much the norm already in the Scandinavian countries, but is still mysterious to many here. Since we've gone ground source on our house in Sweden (four bedrooms) the maximum bill in a month has been £80.
Heat pumps.
Basically air conditioning ( they do that too) units that heat as well.
When electric is the only option they are the most efficient and cost effective. Obviously it all depends if you can fit them in your place and if the cost of fitting is worthwhile.
If you have a super insulated modern home approaching passive house standards then they probably make sense but it seems they are not the magic wand people think.
https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...-of-heat-pumps
I was going to suggest Haverland or Rointe wall mounted rads, maybe with some heat recovery to harvest the rising heat and push it back round the property.
If you can get permission for solar pv, you could use solar to supply power for the cylinder.
In addition the best way to keep your leccy bills low is ensure your home is super insulated.
Mine are air source heat pumps and my house was built in 1835 has single glazed windows original to the period and is far from modern or super insulated, it is however well insulated and draught free. I have no idea what passive house standards are but the house has never been angry.
But, i use them to heat my upstairs areas ( downstairs is with a wood burner). And they very cheap to run, but i only use them when i need to so if i am not using that part of the house they do not run. The doors from downstairs are always open when the wood burner is on so the house never has a chill to it either.
And, main point for me is that i am not worried about turning them on and using them when i need to for fear of a big bill. For me they were the magic wand.
Realistically you will need to sit down with a pen and paper and calculator and spend the time working things out for yourself and not believe a single salesman if you are looking to fit a new system. It takes time but is worth it. Or believe a salesman and be potentially shafted.
My parents had an air source heat pump system installed last July in their 1970's bungalow. The bungalow isn't super insulated but it is draught free and passed the EPC standard required to qualify for the RHI payments scheme which nets them £1,295 income per annum for the next 10 years. Most of the existing radiators were kept but three had to be upgraded and of course a large unvented HW cylinder also had to be fitted. It's a very efficient system that heats the radiators and the hot water, it replaced a very expensive to run oil fired system. If you have the room for the air source pump itself it's a no brainer, the picture below taken during installation gives an indication of the size of the Mitsubishi unit.
I would be interested in knowing more about this scheme, is it Gov subsidised? Did it require a shallow borehole for the heat exchanger?
It sounds intriguing, I worked with geothermal volcanic drilling back in Oz but are quite ignorant of locals ground source heat pump based systems, which I am guessing is what your parents had installed.
Just realised that I forgot to update this.
I went for the Ecostrad electric radiators, and I'm very pleased with them.
The few days of having to live with the storage heaters made me understand just how much I never wanted to see them again, the way they heat the space is horrible, and even with the output turned to zero, they were stifling at night.
In terms of how the space feels, the electric radiators seem a very good substitute for normal central heating. The downside will be the cost, I guess, but the upside is that they are very responsive: I don't need to have a set program, I just turn them on when I get home and they bring the room/s up to temperature before I've cooled down from walking around outside.
They were some more expensive electric radiators on the market which I was initially drawn to, but after investigating them I concluded that there was a lot of BS being used to bump up the price.
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