Absolutely. But in one case someone is doubting a marketing blurb, and in the other a man’s most solemn statement sworn on the Bible.
And even in this case the only way to prove it definitively was to produce the evidence.
I certainly don’t ask them to swear to it, but I don’t believe them.
And they appear to be nice blokes, they are dynamic and I admire the entrepreneurial spirit. I can even almost believe him when he said he wanted their brand to plough it’s own furrow.
I did a bit more digging and found a list of Free French volunteers.
There was an Antoine Bremont, born 10/05/1920. So the age matches.
Unfortunately he was not a Free French Pilot in England.
He was Army, 2nd class soldier in the BM2 (2ème Bataillon de Marche, 2nd ‘walking’ battalion). Created in Bangui, it went across Africa (Brazzaville, Pointe Noire) then across Good Hope to Port Soudan, arrived in Palestine and took part in Syria campaign including the taking of Damas, then Alep and the Euphrate’s banks, went to Egypt and took part in the siege of Bir Hakeim (Feb to May 42) with heavy losses (40%, including 216 killed from about 1000 men).
It then was sent to Madagascar for 6 months, then back to Bangui. It arrived in France at the beginning of 1945, took part in the battle for Royan and marched under the Arc de Triomphe in Paris on 18 June 1945 (a great honour).
Now from the list of Free French fighters, there are only 53,241 out of an estimated total of 53,500. But if he had been a pilot my hunch is that he would be listed.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 1st January 2020 at 16:38.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
This whole thing is becoming quite baffling....
People are questioning the validity of the Bremont story and that is fine... others are saying it is a blatant lie....
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
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Only in the real world!Originally Posted by Ar.parask
In the spill over world from the Bear Pit people think they can say any tosh and get away with it and then come over all passive aggressive.
Bit silly though all the marketing regarding the brand name.. considering the amount of times its been challenged, trying to fact check any of it is impossible, Bremond is the more common french name, Bremont is a champagne family, French death records shed no light on his death, apparently between the incident of 1996 and the brand launch in 2002 he passed away. No mention of family, or who he flew for in the war. So much they could do to put this to bed, which makes it seem fake, Im not saying it is fake, but normally in the Google age you can fact check pretty much anything, apart from this.
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Oh, and Antoine Bremont was from Tahiti.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Hold on a minute, Antoine Bremont was the inspiration for the company name, not the basis on the link between the purpose of the company and its link to aviation.
That was established by the English brothers father and their own links to aviation, unless you think that’s fake news as well.....?
I’m surprised it matters that much to you to be honest
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There’s nothing to ‘put to bed’ because no one cares outside this weird obsessive corner of the internet. It’s amusing to watch this thread develop though.
Perhaps the point is nobody can find any record of the inspirational Monsieur Bremont. Apparently.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
He’s not a brand ambassador, he was the source of a name for a watch that at the point they met him wasn’t even an idea
One farmer in a country of 67 million people, but there’s no evidence he exists...
Keep posting people, this is popcorn stuff
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I guess no one has considered the possibility that Bremont and his family may not have wanted to have their personal details, exact location and all their family affairs published and used for corporate purposes and hence maybe the reason the brothers haven't used specifics or provided the world with all this proof of their exact location etc.Perhaps the point is nobody can find any record of the inspirational Monsieur Bremont. Apparently.
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Last edited by ataripower; 1st January 2020 at 17:55.
When you go to a bremount ad
Do they sit you down in a martin baker chain
And then press the ejector seat button if dont buy one
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So not a You Tube Karaoke star then?
As per Raj’s link above: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hWtt5EK6WFY
The story starts around 1’58’’ but more specifically 2’55’’...
It seems you missed a trick: they tied a French Tahitian farmer who volunteered to fight as a second class army soldier to an unknown namesake who would have been a pilot with the free French in England.
This may be where the ‘embellished truth’ (aka the lie) was born from.
I found an Antoine Bremont in the Free French. He was a farmer born in Tahiti. He wasn’t a pilot.
I haven’t found anything as to his whereabouts after the war. So they may have landed in his field, or not: I have no evidence to say that he returned to Tahiti, nor did I find evidence that he didn’t. On balance, a farmer from Tahiti would have struggled to buy a farm in France but it isn’t impossible.
Again, I cannot prove a negative but considering the above, at least I did my bit to support my opinion. The least I can say is that you haven’t.
As to why, I found the challenge interesting.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
No offence, but you’re a f***ing weirdo
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There are a few watches that Bremont make, that appeal to me, but it’s a while since I have bought a watch in that price range.
At least they have created their own designs, and the lug design in particular - is distinctive.
But - amongst watch fans on here, they do seem to be “The one we love to hate” almost to the extent that it is ‘vogue to hate’.
Jesus, the usual suspects are still shaking their pitchforks, I see!
I think we can summaries this thread as:
One group of people think that Bremont makes good watches and are worth buying
One group doesn’t think Bremont offer good watches due to design issues or low value for money
And one small extremely vocal TZ group absolutely distrusts anything to do with Bremont and therefore hates their products.
Is that pretty much it?
No. You didn’t pay attention. C-
(I am not blaming you, mind)
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Damn! I must try harder!No. You didn’t pay attention. C-
(I am not blaming you, mind
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Yep, I reckon so!
Yep I think so.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Those on crack.
A few.
The rest.
10,000 people per year on crack then based on current production levels
The way Bremont affects you makes me immensely happy
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I think there is an even larger group who dont really care either way but just like discussing watches.
So those that are calling Nick and Giles liars without any evidence are automatically correct, and any that support Bremont secretly know that they are liars and are, therefore, lying themselves?
Are you for real?
I despair at some of the comments
Who cares if the backstory is true or not? All of these luxury watch makers are happy for stories to sell watches. Not to pick on anyone in particular, but revered Blancpain (since 1735, has never made a quartz watch etc) but did precisely nothing before SSIH got involved, and the whole dynamite bit of Fifty Fathoms history was an accident and Lip’s cast off.
Although my next watch won’t be a Bremont it will come from a similar company, with some marketing similarities, and I’m sure will earn the same derision in some quarters. These objects are a personal pleasure, and it isn’t like external validation is either necessary, or asked for.
Why the hate for a company that’s doing pretty well in a competitive market is beyond me.
David
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I gave the evidence I found.
You have Nick’s interview, you could also do your own research and see that you cannot reconcile it with war sources.
I am happy to share the sources but I don’t think you’re interested.
Why do you think they even bother to have a backstory, as you call it?
Because it sells watches. So not only do they care a lot, but a lot of buyers do as well. Whether it plays a part in the buying decision of a WIS remains to be seen. But make no mistake that it matters.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 1st January 2020 at 23:17.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I can only see one person in this thread who has done research. Everybody else seems to have nothing but Bremont's own unreconcileable statements to back their opinions?
Reminds me a bit about a recent discussion about which watch on a peak.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
"Everybody else"
Rather a sweeping statement dont you think?
I meant the people who support Bremont's version of events.
Did I miss something and there was any evidence presented other than what's on their website or in the linked video?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
It’s their history, they get to write it, the fact that you don’t believe it doesn’t make it untrue.
As said in previous posts, you need to believe the moon landings were real to support the flag ship Omega product, personally I’m not convinced but I like watches so I bought one, even if the back story has the potential to be a load of nonsense.
Just because some fruitcakes on a watch forum can’t find a google link to an old guy in France that they met in 1997, five years before they started the company and ten years before they released a watch, doesn’t make it concocted history I’m afraid. Who knows if he lived long enough to see his name inspire the brand.
The English brothers personal aviation heritage is undoubted, unless you’re going to want proof that their father was in the RAF, pictures on the wreckage that he died in and Nick was seriously injured, proof of their pilots licences...what would help to get you comfortable with the back story?
This topic is infected with a substantial volume of absolute wallopers...
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You are questioning the moonlandings and have the audacity to use the word fruitcake for people who do some serious research?
By the way, now that you have reached your 250 posts maybe you could do us a favour and just stop?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Why not, it’s seems to be that nothing is to be believed unless you have a DNA swab or were there yourself?
Ha ha, I’m here for the long haul, get used to it
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You're 'not convinced' that 'the moon landings were real', in the face of all the evidence worldwide, but you're prepared to believe a load of old twaddle trotted out to sell watches by the company selling them?
Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes. I agree with you.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I am not saying there is or isnt. Some other forum member found a Bremont from Tahiti all I managed to find was a Bremont who made weird youtube karaoke videosNot sure either is the French farmer (Unless he is doing well for his age and likes singing in bars in his free time)
I am not too bothered either way about the brand some I like some I dont. I have never liked one enough to buy one but other than that sorry I am not taking the whole debate here too seriously, I will step out of it
I really don’t care if the story is true or not on why their chose Bremont as their company’s name. If it is true, it is a nice story, if it isn’t true, it doesn’t really bother me. All brands have stories about how they got their name with varying degrees of truth!
The link to aviation via their interest and father’s is well known and valid.
At the end it is about whether you like the watches and if you think they are worth buying. It really is as simple as that.
Some googling on the internet ain’t gonna change that!
PS. I do believe the moon landings are real. The evidence is too great to even try to deny that they ever happened!
PPS Raffe I think Saint Just can defend himself without you wading in to be fair! However, you haven’t shared your view of Bremont...is it pro, con or no?
Last edited by paw3001; 2nd January 2020 at 01:25.
I care that their back story is true, it's the fundamental basis of their brand. It's a mark of their honesty. Yet It's lacking in all verifiable evidence. Add that to all the BS of their marketing, their "naïvety" over what an in-house movement is and their slick patter, the tie ins based on that last resort of the scoundrel and in my view you have a busted, tarnished fake flush.
Yes people are innocent until they are either found guilty or plead guilty. That's right Rajen, isn't it.
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
I have no strong view about the brand, never spent a minute considering them. I however remember the in-house debacle and have followed this thread with interest.
But since they are making such a fuzz about this story, my thoughts are that if they are lying about this, I wouldn't trust them with anything else. And so far the only one having done research in order to get to the bottom is SJ (no matter how many members are saying 'some googling', what he has done is far more than that).
Maybe the brand defenders should present their evidence, no doubt some of them are very close to the company so it shouldn't be a problem to get whatever evidence Bremont themselves got?
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
What’s a Bremont?
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
I can see what you are saying, Raffe.
What is presented is hardly research though. Not implying it is for want of trying but it is difficult to do.
The point is simple- are we prepared to dismiss a company based on this ‘scant’ evidence unless someone here or the company itself presents evidence showing that their version is true?
It is a personal choice. I am not sure I am prepared to claim Bremont is lying about their roots.
What I am baffled by is this outrage against Bremont citing the story about its roots, its association with services and the movement debacle. I am fine with someone having a negative opinion of a brand based on the product or marketing.
What bothers me a bit is the enthusiasm and a sense of glee in denouncing a brand. Anyway, if that is what makes them happy. This is not an isolated incidence. We often seem to do that here.
If the price of an item is far removed from the cost of producing it, the brand value becomes very important. And if that appears to consist mainly of hot air...
Last edited by Raffe; 2nd January 2020 at 09:39.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I used to like a few of their designs. P51, Brooklands (Vanguard Green), Norton etc ...but somewhere along the road they lost me. Back in the day they were circa £2k which is where I valued them at. But these days the hype and cost has turned me away from even following them.
There is no glee.
My opinion was that they had created a false storyline, and added to what was for me uninspired designs meant I would not consider a Bremont.
I was then challenged to either prove they lied or accept it was true.
We discussed this briefly with Raj as it is impossible to prove a negative. However, in the ‘interview’ (it’s an infomercial, really) Raj posted Nick said something about Antoine Bremont that I hadn’t registered before: he said he was a Free French pilot.
Now I had no way of proving there wasn’t, somewhere in France in 1996/7, a farmer named Antoine Bremont, hence my repeated request for a village name. But I could probably find him if he was a Free French volunteer.
I haven’t (yet) found an exhaustive list of Free French pilots (I am not sure that list exists as the FF history is very complicated. Not only were only a few of them in the UK, but some of them served in the RAF instead of the FAFL as they were opposed to De Gaulle (they were offered British citizenship to avoid being classed as mercenaries).
The larger part of FF volunteers was in Africa. Almost all FAFL pilots were already in the French Air Force before the war. The Service Historique de le Défense ( https://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr ) has no trace of an Antoine Bremont.
But as I couldn’t be certain that he was a military pilot before the war I searched the Free French database.
It is a work in progress as they are missing a few names ( around 250 out of 50k+) but I found 2 Bremont, one of them being Antoine (the other, Louis, was 20 years older and wasn’t a pilot either).
I have published my finds on his military career earlier.
I do not pretend that I have proven beyond any doubt that the story is fake. However, while some records from Africa, Indochina and New Caledonia may be incomplete as registering as Free French could not be done via the official channels for obvious reasons, it is highly unlikely that the same happened in the UK where the FAFL had an official existence. It is even more unlikely that a Squadron allowed an unregistered pilot to fly its aircrafts, regardless of whether it was a RAF or FAFL group.
Now just like the only way Obama could prove he was born in the USA was to produce his birth certificate, the only way to prove the English’s marketing blob is not phoney is to give more details.
The ball is in their court but for the moment I’ll continue to believe it’s a fabrication that may have some elements of truth (there was a FF volunteer named AB but his connection with aviation doesn’t exist).
Now, again, I believe they are not really bothered. The storyline was created to put the brand in a context, it did just that. And it continues because their customers like what they hear and find being associated with the story flattering.
So, does it matter?
No, if you like the story as it is (I recommend putting your hands on your ears and shouting ‘I can’t hear you’ like some have done in this thread), or if you’re seduced by a specific watch, or the whole range, irrespective (or so you think) of its marketing.
Yes if you want to justify the ‘S’ in WIS, independently of whether you like the brand, or not.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I was offered a Bremont Spitfire for £2.2 at Jura many moons ago. I don't think much of their stock was over £3K...that was 9 years ago!
Wondered into their Canary Wharf store the other day. It’s quite interesting that it is presented like a an aviation museum with the watches as exhibits rather than a standard watch shop. Couple this with the unofficial in-flight photos taken by military guys it made me think they really know how to market well as they are probably selling the flying dream to loads of city boys.
Judging by this thread, I think its best that you remain in ignorance!
I think my Bremont Norton when new in 2009 was about £3500. Very rarely seen for sale but one did sell a couple of years ago at Mark Worthington for £5600 so pretty decent value retention (not quite as good as the MB1’s !!) The equivalent bremont norton V4 released in 2017 was £5500 so similar RRP growth to other brands over the same period.
So you have proven that there was indeed an Antoine Bremont which was the basis and inspiration for the naming of the brand. Well done
Everything thing else you have written is completely irrelevant to the point.
Now perhaps, you'll eat some humble pie and repent by going to a Bremont boutique and buying your first (of many) Bremont watch!
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Unfortunately no. I have proven their story is fabricated unless they can back it up. I would not be surprised that the bulk of their research on the Bremont name was about its copyright-ability, and that they chose Antoine because he had no descendants who could claim royalties. Does that make me a bad person, a cynic, or perhaps someone with an acceptable experience in marketing?
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Hot air balloon fabric will be included in their next LE I’ve heard!
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