Reply With QuoteTriumph spitfire was my first car at 18.
Maybe not ideal being convertible, how about a Vw Beetle, Classic Mini, or Morris Minor?
My lad turns 17 next year and is desperate to learn to drive.
We have offered to get his first car within a budget and today he has asked if he would be able to get a classic car.
Now he wanted an old land rover but the insurance was prohibitive, so he's been putting some thought in to it and has come back with asking for a classic.
Tomorrow night we get a PowerPoint presentation of his suggestions (he's autistic).
Has anyone else gone down the classic route as a first car?
Any pitfalls? Other than lack of safety features.
Mileage would be low as there's no parking at college which he gets the train to.
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Triumph spitfire was my first car at 18.
Maybe not ideal being convertible, how about a Vw Beetle, Classic Mini, or Morris Minor?
A late Saab 96, or a 99. A Volvo Amazon. A 2CV. A Beetle.
Brakes will be a concern as everyone else will have ABS, and that includes the car in front. But he is probably level headed enough to understand the issue and act accordingly.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Sounds a horrible idea to me, classic cars just aren't as fit for today's roads and I'm fairly sure insurers would give you an absolute kicking.
No chance of talking him into a vw polo and jointly buying an old MG or Triumph to share? Named driver on a policy is one thing (thats how i drove my mums XJS) but being solely insured on an old sports car means an utter beasting in costs. Not just that, I remember my dad's last generation mk4 spitfire as a relatively new car and even then that thing hated winter. I'm not sure a classic is a practical "year round" motor.
It's lovely that he's taking an interest in classics and i hope its a passion he keeps but there's no way I'd let my lad have one as a first run about.
My son and I had a similar conversation. He drives a Skoda CityGo for the following reasons.
Classic cars are potention death traps. No ABS, Little crumple zones, iffy brakes, skinny tires, crappy lights, rust, etc
They many be easier to fix, but then they go wrong more often.
Good classic cars are expensive. A half decent Beetle, Mini, Moggy, Ford Escort/Cortina, Fiat, etc, etc will cost more than a much newer Euro Cat 5 car.
It does not mean lower insurance because the company's i spoke to didn't offer Classic Car insurance to U25's. My son's insurance on his Skoda was £1100 - next year if he drives well it will be about £600.
Car tax will be an issue unless you go older than 1972? My son's car is Free.
The upside might be lower depreciation, but if you limit your budget to a couple of grand, then you will not lose much anyway.
Hope this helps. But if your son is really into his cars, buy a joint project and work on it together, but still get him a newer daily driver.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The 2 cars I drive mainly are both pushing 30 years old and it's only in the depths of winter that I actively prefer our newer cars and that's mainly to preserve them or rather not create more work for myself later on.
I think something from the 60s might be a bit ambitious unless he's happy to wield the spanners and/or the trips are local.
An old w123/134 Merc maybe. Have a look on retrorides.com for some ideas.
My first car was a 25 year old Mercedes saloon, a big bugger, it was amazing. Cheap classic insurance, and it never let me down, I still miss it now. It had the letters K, U, N and T in the reg, so it’s nickname was obvious too.
Get him something modern and safe
I should say that I have an Autistic son, learning to drive has been a very long process for him, throwing in any other complications would only make it worse, the car just needs to work, it is nearly secondary, the less he has to think about his car and concentrate on everything that is going on around him the better. I bought him a fairly modern Fiesta.
Last edited by adrianw; 16th December 2019 at 09:18.
Nice idea, but IMO it’s hard to argue against a bells and whistles modern on a sub-£150 PCP or lease.
+1Originally Posted by adrianw
Having started driving with an Austin A35 there's fun, and there's safe. The A35 was neither!
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
I think its great that he's interested in classic cars but I think its a bit too much for a first car, insurance will probably be astronomical if they touch him at all..
I don't think think classic cars have to be knackered old sheds that break down all the time, I have 2 30 year old cars that are reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to drive to Scotland in either of them ...
Your best bet is unfortunately a new tiny/econobox at least it's safe and reliable and they may insure him,he can get a classic in a year or two when the insurance has come down and hes a more competent driver..
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I know it's a cliche here but how about an MX-5?
Wasn't my son's first car but he bought one within a year after his first car (Civic) was written off through no fault of his own. Insurance on MX-5 wasn't very different to what he was paying previously (~£1200?).
A classic car can be expensive & time consuming.
We have a 22 year old mini with below average miles for it's age (160,000) and have just paid for a reconditioned engine to be installed, with a full gearbox rebuild due to worn out parts.
The subframes and bodywork are disposable items to be replaced every 9-years = £300 subframe / £1k to £3k for bodywork wings, sills, floors etc.
The mini's are worth up to £12k second hand, and will absorb just over £1000/year for annual repairs.
For us, £1,000/year is slightly less than the depreciation of a new car.
I do as much maintenance as I can to keep the costs down, and to lessen the frequency of the inevitable breakdowns and malfunctions.
+2
I know a thing or two about classic cars and autism. How does your lad react when he's faced with (e.g.) being stranded, non-starting engine, not being on-time at an appointment and very regular maintenance. 50 y/o parts simply give up from time to time even in the best-prepared car. There's simply no 100% reliability. A good classic will give you 85 - 90%. But that includes a lot of TLC. And maintenance like you're owning an airplane: very strict, very thorough.
I own -among others- a 1972 Saab 96 with 70k kms / 43k miles. I bought it 10 yrs ago with only 55k kms /34k miles on the clock, directly from a nice lady in the middle of Sweden. It used to be her dad's car. I always say: 'there's never been a spanner on that car'. Which is basically true... But I need to adjust the carb setting for easy starting during the winter, I need to adjust the gearshift column stack for better shifting, the bonnet cable worked itself away from the lock. Easy to fix things. But all that sort of things takes me more than an hour every time - and I can use the workshop with all its tools 24/7.
Another argument you can ask your son: what cars use classic car shops as their daily driver? Not a classic (We use a Citroen Berlingo with a knackered driveshaft, but some previous owner dropped an automatic box in that car and there are no autobox driveshafts to find).
If, on the other hand, your sons is an enthousiast mechanic and relaxed when it comes to braking down and looking for parts, then things can be different for your situation. I can relate to the fact that his view on classic cars and owning one is helping him to develop himself. I can safely say that a customers entering the workshop are also somewhere on the autistic spectrum. They don't mind the facts I mentioned above and are totally happy with their cars.
Safety-wise, everything has been said. On the other hand, classic car owners are less involved in accidents. That has to do with their safety conscience, I suppose. Added to that: a FWD classic is always better than a RWD car.
However, if you insist: Volvo Amazon, Saab 99 (not the 96; too quirky to drive with the weird column shift), Mercedes 124, old Japanse stuff, BMW 1500 series - but getting expensive... Stay away from British cars with only three fuses and Joe Lucas electrics.
Make sure you take out private medical ins as well- those old bakelite Stg wheels do a lovely job on your face.
Will getting a classic car reduce the insurance costs ?
Many classic car insurance policies start at 21 or 25 yrs old.
Pete
I run 4 classic bikes, varying from 1961 oldest to 1992 newest. All of them have broken down and left me stranded. Usually wiring faults!
So as stated above practicality is low.
So what about a compromise, as suggested a citigo type car on a sub £150 pcp , AND a project that you both can be involved with.
Im sure Im telling you to suck eggs but the satisfaction of jointly doing things with teens is priceless.
If you have a section of your garage , lend it to him, next the choice? Answer Mk2 MX5, why , cheap as chips, will need lots of bodywork/ aesthetics doing BUT is supported by a massive MX5 following and forums. You may even have a local club. The engine should be solid , these things do 150k miles without issue, but other running parts will require attention.
If it doesn’t work out you can still sell the car on and hopefully wash your face on the costs.
Meanwhile he can go wherever he wants college etc in a safe reliable motor and experience classic ownership without the stranded element.
Good luck with your choices.
Steve
I drive the Riley most days, so use a classic as a dailyish driver, and I am not (as far as I know) leaving in my wake a trail of negative safety-related incidents.
However - I drive in a style honed over many years that builds in an awareness and anticipation that the low-tech vehicle needs if it is to continue in safety.
I don't know your son but suspect that his driving style will be more 21st century than 20th.
So, having weighed the evidence, I have decided that it would not be sensible to subject him to the added requirement of defensiveness that driving an oldie needs.
However, should there be an interest from him in classic motoring, that should be encouraged - a world of fun awaits for those so inclined.
a 1991 nissan micra
super reliable but if it ever does leave you stranded, well just leave it there call an Uber and move on...
but seriously - plenty of mid to late 80s cars with decent crumple zones, side impact protection and ABS....
would suggest a Citroen 2CV for easy of getting going if it breaks down - nobody has ever been stranded by one (even after losing one cyclinder and driveshaeft still managed to limp-drive one home)
though for a good one prices are getting silly
or something like a Triump Herald
Same here! 1974 Mk IV with twin carbs and overdrive in pimento. The roof leaked and it was either too hot or too cold but I loved her. Wouldn’t recommend that for a first car to my boy though.
Would go for something safe and ultra reliable. Jap would be my first thoughts Honda or Toyota.
Bear in mind emissions. Where I live the ULEZ is coming so many pre 2001 cars will incur a charge. That will only get more stricter.
My first car was a Morris Minor that I took over from my granny as she retired from driving.
It was 4 months older than me and had been hers from new, we even had the receipt for it.
Loved it.
There was nothing to go wrong, really, and if anything did, a toolbox of about 6 things was sufficient to fix 99% of anything - I never got stranded.
Not one single ECU failure was possible on it, as it had none.
The skinny tyres and RWD was educational on learning the physics of driving.
You also had to learn a little more defensive driving, as the brakes were not great.
Having siad that, one person tried to get into a space too small and stopped suddenly across my lane right in front of me. I stopped in time, the person behind me did not.
The MM got a bent bumper over-rider, and the modern Rover behind had its entire radiator smashed by the over-rider, so the Morris was every bit as tough as a modern alternative.
Also, so much more character than the average mini Euro/Asian box.
I see no reason not to do it.
D
Driving a classic will do a lot more driver training for a new driver than any techno-safe modern 'box. With a classic you have to learn how best to judge traffic conditions, when to accelerate, when to brake and how to steer. A modern car tends to dumb things down which, IMHO, means a driver can get lazy and rely upon the vehicle to gloss over bad driving. When it takes you twice as far to stop that means you plan ahead more and concentrate on the traffic around you more.
Okay some people might say it's safer to drive a modern car BUT I don't think that makes you a better driver; it's makes you a lazy driver and allows you to play with your phone more!
One thing I would say about a classic car is you need to be prepared to get the spanners out! Everything will be easy to fix but, if you want something where you never have to pop the bonnet or crawl underneath then a modern vehicle will be better simply because it will be newer.
one could argue that a modern driver doesn't need to know more, the electronic systems will sort everything out, don't lift off and don't do anything, the obvious one is four wheel drive, lift off and its no wheel drive. if its a new car it will even slam the brakes on rather than crash.
Out of interest what were his suggestions?
He seems to be methodical if he is happy why not get him to research the likely insurance costs as a new driver on 2-3 of his options and then again as a claim free driver at 1 and 2years ncb?
It might allow him to come to the conclusion that a modern will be a better and cheaper option.
An old classic car on a winters morning, the heater and wipers hardly adequate the salt would ruin it. As said get a modern cheap runner ans save driving a classic for the summer.
I forgot about this slightly relevant story. Inside to own a Series 2a Land Rover, 109, ex military so about as agricultural as it gets. I got sick of it, it was unpleasant to drive, I put it on eBay and a middle aged woman bought it, who lived a couple of hundred miles away. She turned up with her 17 year old son in tow, turns out it was a gift
For him, for when he passed his test. They drive home to Aberdeen, got pulled for not having any tax, and had a very unpleasant dark rainy 200 mile trip. She messaged me later to say thanks very much for the car, it was exactly what she was after, but her son hated it and wouldn’t go anywhere near it.
I had the same issue a few years back and bought step daughter a Fiat Panda. I found a two owner 22k miles garaged all it's life for £500 on Gumtree. I put new tyres and cambelt on it, a full service, re greased the UV joints, polished it and it looked very impressive.
She was chuffed with it but a minor bump effectively wrote it off so she bought a Hyundai i20. Modern yes, but not a patch on the classic boxy Panda. The 4WD ones are rising in price but even a 2WD one with all season tyres will beat any modern with low wide tyres in a bit of snow/slush.
Sorry but as many have said a classic car will be either a money pit or He will be breaking down and You will have the arse ache of trying to find the parts and fix it.
I was giving this a thought and then realised it might be going to the days of a choke and then realised no chance. Go modern
+1 to getting him a new safe runabout.
A classic car is a hobby, something to spend long evenings in the workshop on, and lots of money.
If he's a youg lad he will also invariably think he's better at driving than he is, so better to have him in something that, in the worst case scenario, gives him the best possible chance of walking away.
Initially I thought of a classic mini but on reflection your post makes much more sense.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
A small point is It’s not 1972 it’s 1979 soon to be 1980 for no tax or MOT....
my first car I learned to drive in was a 1963 Mk1 Mini Crayford Convertible, I passed my test in it, we still have it, I’ve just paraded it at Goodwood Revival.
my sister got a Morris Minor, me a ‘72 Beetle.... it made me drive it and be aware of handling and basics and basic mechanics.
Loved every minute of it, the occasional breakdown is frustrating but these days Green Flag etc is not dear and you’ve saved on tax and MOTs to buy that.
we now have 5 classics it’s a love that should be a encouraged, people near me had their sons use their Morris Minor for college and they were fine.
Perhaps some extra lessons post test and a solid moggy Minor is the way to go for the OP.
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Last edited by lordloz; 16th December 2019 at 20:13.
Well that was an interesting half an hour of my day.
Firstly his ideas of what defines a classic and mine seem to differ by a good few years.
His list is rather varied and includes the following:
A MK2 Jaguar - he explained it would need some work in the price bracket we were considering, when I highlighted the time and cost of this work he was less keen.
Ford Orion - not my idea of a classic at all, my old man had a few over the years and he liked the look from old family photos along with the next car
Ford Sierra.
Audi 80
Range Rover P38
Morris traveller.
Now unbeknown to my son, I know my dad is considering one as a restoration project as he has a spare garage, so I spoke to my dad and he's going to suggest the two of them club together and restore one.
The lad is now looking at cars under 1.5 litres and made in the last ten years, so we will see what he comes up with, as we said no to all the cars on his list.
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Actually Audi 80 is not a bad choice
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Not a small point. It's an excellent point - my bad.
But as an ex 1959 Ford 100e and 1971 Saab V4 owner, I totally agree. Classic cars are huge fun, however when it dark, wet, and you need it to get to work, etc I didn't want to have them as daily drivers.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Glad you might have a sensible solution.
I ran a classic Mini for a bit in London.
Good points: Let out of junctions, parking was easy, roundabouts were fun.
Bad points: Other drivers assumed I wasn't able to drive quickly, locking up in the wet, rusting chassis, rudimentary heating and security.
But I loved it.
Certainly wouldn't recommend one for a learner driver though. Traffic is too quick these days and people are too impatient.
My nephew is autistic, a similar age to your son, and heavily into cars.
His parents bought him a relatively new cheap Ford Fiesta, and an even cheaper MX-5 for restoration.
They are happy that he is in a reasonable and slow daily driver, and he is in heaven working on his MX-5.
Pete
Check the back pages of Practical Classics, there's always short reviews on cheap cars and how much it costs their owners to run in £ per mile taking into consideration DIY servicing and insurance / mpg etc...
I believe the standard MX-5 comment to be appropriate here.
Semi classic but with modern brakes etc..
My son bought a Volvo 345 (DAF77) when 16.
Turning 18 this Januar and keen to get his drivers´ license.
It´s a very practical car. Good brakes, good road holding. Reliable Renault 1.4 engine, 5 doors, more space and better visibility than modern counterparts.
He is over the moon with it and I wholy agree.
I am currently looking at options for a first car for my daughter.
I think these days the obvious criteria has to be safe, cheap to run, reliable.
Anything else is going to be an ongoing headache (for me).
I also recall seeing some horrifying videos a few years back of test crashes between modern and older cars (not even that old, just by a decade or so) and the modern cars absolutely demolished the older cars - literally smashed them to pieces in virtually all impact scenarios.
Classic cars are great for weekend use and a more experienced driver. Not for a 17 year old on modern (appallingly maintained) busy roads.
Just my view of course.
So clever my foot fell off.
Arrrr... yes I remember ;-) Leaning out of the window whilst driving to spray anti-freeze on the windscreen but realizing it was the inside that was frozen so then spraying it on the inside, also whilst driving, and almost going blind and passing out from the fumes :-) Happy days :-)
I love classic VWs and would have one as a hobby car.
Bought my eldest daughter a 1L Toyota Yaris and it's been great.
Dave
I was going to suggest an MGB or a Spitfire, but having seen a MGB fully lock up on the A14 the other morning during one of the regular commuting stop/start 60-0-60 mph flows, I would think again. Modern cars can out-brake the classics by such a huge margin nowadays, even if driven sensibly I would be too worried about most people (but especially a young lad) having one for a regular daily driver.
MX5 as already suggested may be worth thinking about, but they are likely to clobber you for insurance I would suspect.
Some of those others on his list are actually quite nice (other less so!).
Audi 80 would be my choice.
Last edited by Maysie; 17th December 2019 at 10:45.
My sons Volvo was a decade ahead of the rest with sturdy roll protection and side impact bars. Furthermore we live in a country with well maintained roads and all but empty highways.
If living in say the Netherlands I would have motivated him to buy an Aygo.
There are two aspects to this; passive and active safety. The former has almost become obsessive and while important, the latter should not be neglected. P.e. the heavier the car is, the more in play come load sensitivity of the rubber. Ditto the Peltzman effect.
The passive safety is furthermore tricky. Crash tests have evolved over the years yet still tell only part of the story. The higher a vehicle is the less active and passive safety p.e. and the lower it is the worse the crash compatability. Even seemingly small changes can have significant effect: To increase compatability the latest model years of the MR2 were put 25 mm higher on the springs. The gain in compatability was greater than the loss in active safety.
The oft mentioned MX5 is pretty bad in compatability too and the difference in both active and passive safety are significant per generation.
All in all it ´safety´ not a blanket thing apart from heavier resulting in more kinetic energy, greater forces.
Regarding the Riley - there is nothing like having a 5ft steel tube pointing straight at your heart for making you try really hard not to drive into something.
Interested to see the comment re. MGB locking its brakes, I’ve owned MGBs for years and never had a problem braking. My current one is fine, I never feel at a disadvantage in this respect.
Anti-lock brakes help, no matter how good you are at cadence braking you can’t beat modern ABS, but folks shouldn’t be getting into situations where harsh braking is necessary. No substitute for leaving a good gap to the car in front that’s correct for the speed you’re travelling at, I’m convinced a lot of accidents are caused by driving too close at too high a speed.
You can’t change the laws of physics, modern cars lull people into a false sense of security. Having said that, I don’t think a classic car is a good first car for a youngster, far too many drawbacks that gave already been mentioned.
Do autistic people stress when things go wrong, don't work, they are late? If so maybe get your son a modern reliable car for his first one, he will have enough other things to concentrate on, then when he has a few thousand miles under his belt you can decide on his second car.
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