My 6 year old son was using his scooter in our underground car park (which I'm upset at him for as it is dangerous) and he lost balance and fell off. The scooter went flying off and hit a high end sports car in the car park leaving visible scratch damage on the front bumper. I left my details in a note on the windscreen.
I also contacted my car insurance who said that as my car wasn't involved it was nothing to do with them and that the other owner would just claim off his policy as 'one of those things'. Anyway later that day the owner knocked on the door and I explained the situation and that I'd be happy to pay for a retouch for the minor damage and that I'd be ok for it do be done at a place that ensured the warranty was still intact.
He wasnt happy with this, insisting the car weng back for a full examination. This reeks of 'finding' faults etc that he knew about and pinning them on me. I refused, he refused my offer and so we are at a situation where I've advised him to sort it out himself of he isn't being reasonable.
What's the legal situation here? I'm happy to make amends even if legally I don't have to but I'm not having someone take the p*ss either for a very minor scratch that is probably £300 tops to fix, even on a high end Porsche.
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Just make sure that you have lots of photos of the damage.
I'm not a lawyer but a quick Google suggests that parents can be held liable for their minor children's actions in certain circumstances. Whether those circumstances apply here, I'm not sure. However, if you have offered proper compensation, while I can see the car owner would be very hacked off, I'm not sure more could be asked of you.
Originally Posted by ryanb741
If you’re wanted to be really difficult and obtuse, let him pursue your son for the accidental damage. You haven’t done anything wrong and technically you could argue it’s pure accident ie not negligence.
He can’t go after you as you weren’t responsible for the damage.
He should suck it up and claim from his own insurance.
Your kid your fault.
take pictures, let him take it where he wants, if he is reasonable and the repair to bumper not too much, pay it, if he asks for the rust on the rear axle to be done, tell him to see you in court.
OP is responsible for failure to manage his child, who in turn caused the damage in an environment where this type of incident might reasonably be expected. If the third party claims under his insurance? At least three likely consequences - he will probably have an excess (which he will want to reclaim from OP); his insurers will seek to recover their outlay from the OP; third party will be reluctant to compromise his NCB - and why should he?
PS What is his car? Does it have a particularly special paint finish? For example, certain satin paintjobs cannot be touched up/blended and necessitate a full panel respray.
Last edited by Skyman; 14th December 2019 at 17:18.
Take the photos (including of the offending scooter).
It’s a civil responsibility claim so not your car insurance.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Thanks guys
I've taken the pics already, I did offer to pay for a proper fix at Porsche (it is a GT3) but i'm refusing his wish for a full examination by Porsche as the Scooter is a child's one around a metre tall and maybe 2 kilos in weight - his is taking the piss.
Quick check with a legal friend apparently i don't need to pay anything as it was an accident and not wilful criminal damage or anything that is hugely unavoidable and in any case the Terms and Conditions of the car park specifically state everything is at owners' risk which sets the precedent. I want to keep on good terms with the neighbour and felt my offer to make a full repair was generous but he wants to push the envelope somewhat.....
Ryan, no offence, but your legal friend is just not correct. Reverse the situation, and imagine that somehow the GT3 owner reversed over your son’s scooter. Your friend’s comment is patently wrong. I am imagining your neighbour, as a GT3 owner, is a tad protective about his car. Cannot blame him for that.
I'm no lawyer Ryan but I think in this case you have been reasonable. That is the underpinning of a lot of the law.
Let him come back with a response and try to remain reasonable if you can.
I wonder if the T&Cs touch on children playing games in the car park. As for liability, it seems reasonable to me that the parents are responsible. As for repair, his request seems OTT - at most a partial / full (depending on paint) respray seems fair, given the car involved.
I guess that if the third party gets an inspection and damage report, that will be at no cost. He can then share that report with Ryan, who can in turn check whether or not it is unreasonable.
Its terrible that the owner is basically being a idiot about it ! As it was very good of you to leave a note as most people wont , as they are subjected to this type of over reaction !
Its not like it was done on purpose , I know your child should nt have been playing there but kids will be kids ! If you know a bit about cars then you will know that a child's scooter would not cause any damage to the crash protection behind the bumper , so it is basically cosmetic ! But he will obviously try and get you to pay for any stone chips ect . Which is wrong but you may have to pay up .
Can you organise with the owner a good dent man/ smart repair to give you a quote ?
Sorry ignore , just seen the car involved ! I cant see him wearing a Smart repair on a GT3
The T&Cs apply as between the building owners/managers and third parties, not as between the OP and a third party.
I cant see the problem with an inspection, in its self its not harmful, its the report that will reveal the path that this might follow.
I certainly don’t own any high end sports cars so I’m not being biased towards the chap but it’s easy for people to say things like “£300 tops to repair a few scratches” without considering things fully.
Are we talking marks that will polish out? If not then I’d say he’s well within his right to have the bumper painted. Trouble with these things is they’re now (a bit like new Rolex) coveted as ‘investments’ and considering his reaction he may well be the type who’s mind runs away thinking about resale and explaining the car’s had paintwork etc.
I work on porsche and Ferrari and I can tell you if he wants it done properly through Porsche (who are we to say he shouldn’t, even if he does it’s still no longer original so it’s not like he’ll be pleased either way) It’d be a darn sight more than £300 if it needs paintwork. Pretty sure my customer was saying porsche charge £170 per hour.
I guess it could be a bit like an extreme version of someone scratching your Rolex gmt and offering to get it polished, it’s never the same if it was original. Judging by his reaction he’s obviously very precious about it.
Hopefully he chills out on reflection and you can come to an arrangement.
Good post.
Ryan, you may find that your house/flat contents insurance has public liability cover for you and your family. That may cover this situation.
Depending on the paint, £300-500 for a bumper re spray is about right. (My brother owns a body shop)
A touch up, with a brush etc, is visible.
Now if his independent inspection begins to find all sorts of other stuff I’d tell him to do one too, but things are not at that stage yet.
If the marks are so minor they could be polished out he should probably prefer that as it keeps his paint original. Depends how deep the scratches go. If it’s through to the undercoat it needs paint.
He can get his car "fully examined" but your maximum liability is for the damage and maybe any costs very closely associated.
Update
We also have CCTV of the incident via the concierge office and it it pretty obvious that any damage is very slight. He agrees this and has calmed down about any potential hidden damage. We have now both agreed that he will get a quote from his local authorised dealer for a respray (which will maintain his warranty on the paint), I will foot the bill and he will take me for a beer to apologies for getting shirty with me. So it has all calmed down.
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Good news. Glad that sense has prevailed!
I'm glad a reasonable arrangement has been made. I think his initial reaction is a knee jerk and I think mine would be similar if my pride and joy had been damaged and he's since reflected and calm downed once fully establishing what happened.
Sounds like a mutually acceptable solution which is great ...its different when its a neighbour who you cross paths with regularly.
Good result and fair play to the guy for admitting he over reacted these things do happen.
Although not a Porsche a child who been visiting his nan went right along the side of my brand new 2 days old car with the brake leaver of his bike I was furious but these things happen unfortunately. I had no idea who had done it but fair play the parents knocked the following day and explained that the child had admitted to it and offered to pay for the repair. Sometimes it’s easy to over react at the start being able to admit to that and climb down is a big thing
This is a complex topic but broadly speaking under UK law - that's not actually true. There is a complex chain of events that can result in the parent being liable but generally speaking they treat the child like anyone else and look to see if they having taken reasonable care. However the reasonable care they are looking for is that of another child not an adult...
In most normal situations, a parent is not automatically liable for the actions of their child in the way that some people on this thread think.
Obviously if your kid scratches a car, most people will pay for it but that is a social not legal thing.
Disregarding the child’s personal liability, you simply have to prove that the parent acted negligently e.g. paid no regard to the child’s actions when the incident occurred.
You might be covered under your house insurance.
... which would be very difficult as the father left his card.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
How bad is this scratch?
With many metallic paints the size is immaterial, unless it can be polished out. If not many metallics would require a full panel respray to avoid an 'off colour' patch. ;-)
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
It is better to maintain a good relationship with a neighbour, and fair doos for his admission that he had over reacted.
In my previous house, common parking area, I noticed a dink in my drivers door. Could have happened anywhere so just shrugged mentally, if a little pissed off. However my neighbour knocked my door and told me that she had opened her door and dinked mine. I appreciated her honesty, and had it sorted with a dent guy at a cost to her of 80 sovs.
Ok it wasn't a GT3, but still a fairly pricey car (Macan s), but all parties content and good relations maintained.
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If it's the GT3 in the picture posted elsewhere I can only sympathise with the owner!.
I would be reluctant to claim on my car insurance TBH, given the circumstances and the fact that to some people their 'car' is not just any old car.
Better to sort this out amicably but I suspect a £300 'touch' up is not even close.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Agreed, especially on a £150k car. I would think at least £800 is a Porsche AD is involved. Maybe more if the owner wants the Bumper removed for repainting.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
This makes it sound like he was on his own?
A sensible outcome. He should also give credit for you owning up. Chances are - he’d have driven it off without noticing?
He is fortunate.
Not at the time the incident occurred. Afterwards he left his details.
No I was with my son who is autistic. We took the lift to the underground car park as I was driving him to a playgroup he attends and he likes to be on the scooter for the short trip to the car as it gives him a pleasant sensory feel. He isn't supposed to use it in the car park area only for the trip from the flat, down the internal corridors to the lift etc and then the other end when leaving the car and going to his group. He just lost balance in the car park and it scooted away from him and hit the car bumper which was very low to the ground. I was with my son the whole time as he cannot be unaccompanied and I'd never let him play in the car park it was literally a 10 metre trip from the lift to my car. I left my details at the time on the windscreen. And yep it is that GT3 from the other thread.
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Last edited by ryanb741; 14th December 2019 at 21:12.
Sense prevails
Accidents happen and you rightfully are covering the cost of the Porsche approved paint job.
Honesty is not always the best policy
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Well considering there was video evidence, in this case it certainly was.
OP, speak to your home insurance if it’s much more expensive than you thought.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
From another perspective why have such a nice car if it’s going to cause this much anxiety if you get a little scratch. It’s a sad world when your wealthy enough to own a 150 k car and you lose your temper when a 6yo has an accident. I get it’s annoying but come on. This is why I really try not to buy something I can’t afford to get broken.
In the past I would have lost my rag but I don’t think I would now. Last Christmas’s my then6yoy decided to chew my brand new MontBlanc pen, I decided to think of it as patina and in 20 years time Ill still think of that Christmas
I’ve done a lot of work withASD meeting their sensory needs is really important. It’s also taught me to be more tolerant. Caveat, I accept I would smug!!!
You are kidding?
All's well that ends well.
I have never understood why people react so badly to issues with cars; they're chunks of metal, plastic, rubber and leather and are insured. I loaned my TVR Griffith 500 to my then girlfriend (early-90s) and her ex took/stole the car and crashed it (It's a bit more complex than that but I'll save you the detail). She was distraught when she called to tell me. I told her to stay calm, it would all be sorted and wasn't her fault. He (let's call him Dominic - he had previous for this sort of thing) laughed when he came on the phone; he got short thrift. Another car I owned was hit whilst being driven by a friend (fully insured) and she was equally distraught; it went to a body shop and was as good as new within two weeks of the incident. A Ferrari I owned in the early 2000s was hit in a car park resulting in some minor cosmetic damage. I stayed calm, we exchanged details and again within weeks the repair was complete and he paid in full rather than going through insurance.
Last edited by Skier; 14th December 2019 at 22:10.
Absolutely not.
People are curiously precious about their cars.
If you scratched my £200.000 car and then shrugged your shoulders he wouldn’t be having a pleasant conversation.
That’s your personal philosophy, for which well done. Others do not react in the same way.
What has that got to do with it? GT3 owner may treat his car preciously. What has that got to do with affording it? Stupid comment.
- - - Updated - - -
And their watches.
And that's my point. Why react so viscerally to something that is so easily rectified?
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