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Thread: Speedie experts 1968 145.012

  1. #1
    Master huytonman's Avatar
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    Speedie experts 1968 145.012

    Guys, I have a 1968 145.012 and it rarely gets worn so I'm considering selling it but have two questions; one relates to value as these seem to be all over the place and the second is where is the best place to sell. The watch comes with the correct box, extract from the archive confirming it was sold in Mexico in 1968 which also nicely stacks up with the bracelet that was made by Omega in Mexico (comes with spare links). It also has the appropriate nylon/velcro nato and an original Omega leather strap. The watch was fully serviced 2 years ago by Simon Freese when he had to re-lume the hands and dial due to loss of original material (those who know Simon will appreciate that he does an excellent job and the colour is exactly as you would expect a 50 year old Tritium dial/hands to have). The case is excellent and the bezel is the original DON version.
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    thanks
    Keith

    Last edited by huytonman; 9th December 2019 at 15:42.

  2. #2
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Nice watch, vintage Speedmasters rely on details so a few pics might help, Speedmaster 101 which is an accurate guide to price says $8000 - so just over £6k, this is for head only and good condition so with the extras your probabley looking at nearer £7k, if its collector quality then the price shoots up, saying that a relume is a relume and vintage speedy collectors like originality and unpolished cases/original hands.

    Get some images up if you can
    Last edited by murkeywaters; 9th December 2019 at 18:40.

  3. #3
    Pictures are needed. The relume on the dial will have a big impact on value. I would have thought closer to £5k but it will be hard to find a collector that wants it

  4. #4
    Master huytonman's Avatar
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    Photo now added chaps

  5. #5
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    You could always have a chat with Darren at Vintage Speedmaster. He is a member on here and a moderator on the Omega forums and certainly knows his stuff. It's a nice looking watch and that's important. You do see some beat up looking watches that are all original, but some people are happy to accept Simon's work if the watch looks better on the wrist and the cost is less than would be asked for one that ticked every box.

  6. #6
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Another way of looking at it is its value in parts, not that you would break it up but it helps with the intrinsic value, 321 movement in good condition £2k? Nice DON bezel £2k+? dial and hands are a questionable value due to relume work, pushers and crown? case looks quite sharp and hopefully case back matches.

    What I'm saying is there is a minimum value in parts, unfortunately this isn't always accounted for in a complete watch, someone might want the bezel or movement but dont want to pay the whole watch price, If it was my watch I would try it at £6.5k and see where it goes but expect collectors to be put off by the relume.

  7. #7
    Craftsman
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    Compared to the one ive just seen on WUS forum that is MINT . Cant comment on value but do these have a step dial or was that the first lot of 861 s?

  8. #8
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Compared to the one ive just seen on WUS forum that is MINT . Cant comment on value but do these have a step dial or was that the first lot of 861 s?
    Yes, all the 60s models were step dial - right up until 1971 I believe.

  9. #9
    Craftsman
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    Thanks , hard to see in the OP photos ,this is the last of the cal 321 the so called ED white I believe ?

  10. #10
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Thanks , hard to see in the OP photos ,this is the last of the cal 321 the so called ED white I believe ?
    The Ed White was the 105.003 - (63, 64 and 65) and they were pre-moon and pre-professional. This one is a later model.

  11. #11
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Thanks, hard to see in the OP photos ,this is the last of the cal 321 the so called ED white I believe ?
    Since it is a Pro model with an extract production date of 1968 then it is a 145.012-67 or 145.012-68, the change over between which was late October 1968, the only difference is the 2 digit iteration code on the caseback, both these used the 321. The OP hasn't said which it is. No this is not the Ed White, that is a quite different straight lug model, the 105.003-65, which weirdly was still being delivered unchanged as late as 1969.
    Last edited by Padders; 9th December 2019 at 22:42.

  12. #12
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Thanks , hard to see in the OP photos ,this is the last of the cal 321 the so called ED white I believe ?
    An Ed White would be the previous straight lug case...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.chef View Post
    Pictures are needed. The relume on the dial will have a big impact on value. I would have thought closer to £5k but it will be hard to find a collector that wants it
    I donít get involved with the vintage Speedy thing, and this is one if the reasons why. This seems to be the accepted wisdom but frankly I find it depressing, the Ďpuristsí prefer a scruffy beat- up example in preference to an expertly relumed example......itís absolute madness and it almost verges on inverted snobbery........ímineís more original than yours even though it looks like a scruffy piece of shití.

    Kings new clothes syndrome. In my opinion the dial and hands look great and Iíd rather own something in this condition than a scruffy original. Iím sure this watch will find a buyer who agrees with me and is prepared to pay a good price.

  14. #14
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    There is a market for expertly relumed watches, but people need to know who has done the work. I think anything done by Simon Freese adds something to the watch. Sure an original perfect watch is always going to more valuable, but I have to agree with Paul to some degree that a correctly restored watch by a recognised expert is possibly better than a semi trashed untouched watch.

  15. #15
    Master huytonman's Avatar
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    thanks for the various comments, Iíll add a few details tomorrow on the date etc. I bought the watch originally due to wanting a Cal321 movement, that it was wrapped inside a Speedmaster was secondary; that said the history of the model with Michael Collins wearing one in the Command Module whilst his buddies played on the moon always had an attraction.
    Keith

  16. #16
    Craftsman
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    Thanks for all the help I have looked at buying a vintage speedie but get a bit confused with all the references ! Obviously Omega were bringing changes to these very quickly to keep momentum 're cash in on the moon landings there are lots of overlaps , talk of transitional dials ECT
    Its a bit of a mine field for a new buyer a lot to study and research especially if you want to look at a couple of different refrence /caliber options !

  17. #17
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    I donít get involved with the vintage Speedy thing, and this is one if the reasons why. This seems to be the accepted wisdom but frankly I find it depressing, the Ďpuristsí prefer a scruffy beat- up example in preference to an expertly relumed example......itís absolute madness and it almost verges on inverted snobbery........ímineís more original than yours even though it looks like a scruffy piece of shití.

    Kings new clothes syndrome. In my opinion the dial and hands look great and Iíd rather own something in this condition than a scruffy original. Iím sure this watch will find a buyer who agrees with me and is prepared to pay a good price.
    That is not entirely fair or accurate.
    Top of the hill is obviously a totally original watch in great condition
    Bottom is a poor-conditioned dog of a watch
    In between there are all sorts of combinations of restoration and repair that have their values intermingled with those that are original but in better or poorer condition.

    It is too simplistic to suggest that "the Ďpuristsí prefer a scruffy beat- up example in preference to an expertly relumed example".

    And this is not just true of Speedie's or watches at all. Look at cars. The rarest of all things, the most prized version is a total minter, original condition from new. It may not look in anything like as good condition as a recently restored one, but it is rarer and more desirable to be original, mostly because it shows that it has been continuously looked after for its entire history.
    Anything that has work done to it has the twin risks that it might have been appallingly treated before the work and therefore still hold some "issues", or that the person who did the work may not have done it amazingly well.

    As has been stated, Simon is well known to be very good at this, so this one will be well valued. But we have all seen "restoration" work that has ruined the aged character of a watch, and the value at the same time.

    Dave

  18. #18
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Thanks for all the help I have looked at buying a vintage speedie but get a bit confused with all the references ! Obviously Omega were bringing changes to these very quickly to keep momentum 're cash in on the moon landings there are lots of overlaps , talk of transitional dials ECT
    Its a bit of a mine field for a new buyer a lot to study and research especially if you want to look at a couple of different refrence /caliber options !
    Before you buy a vintage Speedmaster buy the PDF version of Moonwatch Only book, cost is about £23 compared to £200+ for the actual book, the book has more history but all watch references, components, serials etc are covers by the digital version..

  19. #19
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Speedie experts 1968 145.012

    Regarding lume, this is my 64 Ed White, Iím pretty sure itís all original but the lume is not the best patina, now a professional relume by someone like Simon Freese would no doubt make it a better looking watch but it would also really harm the value.

    After owning a few vintage Speedmasters I have to say Iím in the donít touch it camp, you can never go back once the original finish is gone..



    Incidentally Iím putting another vintage Speedy in for a service this week, a 145.022-71T, it has missing paint on the base of the hands and Iím not sure whether to keep as is and have them stabilised so they donít flake anymore, or have the paint matched and touched up, again itís original as it is??

    Last edited by murkeywaters; 9th December 2019 at 23:52.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    Since it is a Pro model with an extract production date of 1968 then it is a 145.012-67 or 145.012-68, the change over between which was late October 1968, the only difference is the 2 digit iteration code on the caseback, both these used the 321. The OP hasn't said which it is. No this is not the Ed White, that is a quite different straight lug model, the 105.003-65, which weirdly was still being delivered unchanged as late as 1969.
    I was hoping you would chime in. Whats you opinion on the relume and its affect on value?

  21. #21
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    I sold my 145.012-67 a couple of weeks ago, very similar condition minus the relume.

    Got £6,500 for it.


    Last edited by Raffe; 10th December 2019 at 09:10.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    I sold my 145.012-67 a couple of weeks ago, very similar condition minus the relume.

    Got £6,500 for it.


    And your bezel is much better(the OP bezel is still good).

  23. #23
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    Thanks for all the help I have looked at buying a vintage speedie but get a bit confused with all the references ! Obviously Omega were bringing changes to these very quickly to keep momentum 're cash in on the moon landings there are lots of overlaps , talk of transitional dials ECT
    Its a bit of a mine field for a new buyer a lot to study and research especially if you want to look at a couple of different refrence /caliber options !
    As someone who keeps looking at them , but like you is confused I find these two resources usefull. The first as it shows the top prices pieces attract in their various conditions. And secondly price trends over the years and everything speedy.

    Last but not least ď this placeĒ as the comments above attest to the collective knowledge of the forum.

    https://www.vintagespeedmaster.com/speedmaster-for-sale

    http://speedmaster101.com/price-chart-2/

  24. #24
    Master huytonman's Avatar
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    Guys, the cert of authenticity dates production as Nov 11 1968.
    Keith

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by huytonman View Post
    Guys, the cert of authenticity dates production as Nov 11 1968.
    Keith
    Have you got anymore photos so the condition of the case can be assessed? Sides and back please

  26. #26
    Craftsman
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    Just come back from Kempton Park Antiques Market and looking at watches ( obviously ) got talking to one of the traders about Omegas as he had a few For Sale , mentioned that I have been looking to buy a Cal 321 and didnt like the smaller seamasters but looking at Speedmasters . He pulls up his sleeve and says what like this a 321 Speedie, twisted lugs ! I have now had a chance to really handle one , rather than looking at pics online and ive got to say Im impressed! The stepped dial is really nice in the flesh , overall a great looking and feel to the watch , size is perfect for me .
    Unfortunately the watch was not for sale and the condition was not as good as the OP s , scratches to bezel ,crystal. But it was a great chance for me to see a reasonable rarity in the wild today , which as you all know does nt happen too often !

  27. #27
    Darren at Vintage Speedmasters is your best bet. I have sold him a couple of watches and he is 100% trustworthy.

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