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Thread: Central Heating - Winter

  1. #1
    Master Chinnock's Avatar
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    Central Heating - Winter

    Out of curiosity, do you have the heating to a set morning / evening only, or is it more economical at a set temperature 24/7? Have double glazing, cavity wall insulation etc

    Have mine on for mornings (5-9) / evenings (3-8) at 20c and rest of time at 13c. Have Aga (on all the time) and log burner mainly evenings.

    Mate tells me he has his set at 20c all the time and economically is more cost efficient. I kind of see the logic but some input from other members would be of interest.

    How do you have yours set now winter has arrived?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chinnock View Post
    .

    How do you have yours set now winter has arrived?
    Mrs has ours set on inferno and still says she's cold.....meanwhile I'm in shorts and T shirt.

  3. #3
    Craftsman ordo's Avatar
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    22,5C at night, 20C the rest of the time.

    During the day it'll rarely drop below 20C (depends on winter) anyway but sometimes we feel it a bit necessary to start it up for 20-30 minutes...

  4. #4
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Depends on your insulation, if you are super insulated then leaving the thermostat on 20C would mean the heat would only come on when the temperature drops, this would be longer periods of no heating needed as the insulation would hold the heat in.

    Obviously an old cottage with 60's or older insulation loses heat rapidly, leaving the thermo on in a house like this would have the boiler doing 10 to the dozen, so perhaps your idea of only heating when your home is the best bet.

  5. #5
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    My son works in this field. When I asked him this question a while ago, he told me that their lab tests tell them that leaving the heating on is definitely less economical than only heating when you need it.

    If well insulated, the difference is less. If you have family members who get cold then turn the heating up to 28 then turn it down again when they get too hot, thatís worst of all.

    Just what he told me but he sounded pretty plausible.

  6. #6
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    I use Tado. It's set for a base temp of 15 degrees at all times, and only when someone is at home, 19 in the day, 21 in the evenings until 10.30pm then back to the default 15.

    My house has lots of thermal inertia (solid walls etc) and a job with non standard hours, so the regular twice a day doesn't work for me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by broxie View Post
    I use Tado. It's set for a base temp of 15 degrees at all times, and only when someone is at home, 19 in the day, 21 in the evenings until 10.30pm then back to the default 15.

    My house has lots of thermal inertia (solid walls etc) and a job with non standard hours, so the regular twice a day doesn't work for me.
    Pretty much what we do with our tado, works well house is always warm when we walk in. Set to 14deg when weíre not there 18 during the day and 21 of an evening, if the log burner is lit obviously the heating doesnít come on by temp anyway in most rooms.

  8. #8
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfat33 View Post
    My son works in this field. When I asked him this question a while ago, he told me that their lab tests tell them that leaving the heating on is definitely less economical than only heating when you need it.

    If well insulated, the difference is less. If you have family members who get cold then turn the heating up to 28 then turn it down again when they get too hot, thatís worst of all.

    Just what he told me but he sounded pretty plausible.
    You don't need lab tests to prove it (that is quite worrying ) - it is simple thermodynamics.

    Heat transfer is always from HOT to COLD ,and is directly proportional to the delta T (difference in temp from inside to outside ).


    So - heat loss (to outside) is greatest when you maintain the temperature - high inside, for the longest period.

    Insulation makes a difference, but does not alter the thermodynamic principle.

    Think about it - maintain your house at the same as external temp, and there is NO heat loss!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    You don't need lab tests to prove it (that is quite worrying ) - it is simple thermodynamics.
    Indeed it is. Nice to have some data to confirm it though. They have a complete house wired up with hundreds of sensors to test their products.

  10. #10
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    Iíve just swapped out an out Drayton system for their ĎWiserí smart product, in addition to the Hall thermostat Iíve added a coup,e of smart valves to radiators in some of the rooms.

    Lots of insulation in our house and we donít often use all the rooms so just keep a base temp of 13c when away and 19c mornings and evenings.

  11. #11
    Master Rod's Avatar
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    We are in a modern well insulated flat, double glazed, a foot of loft insulation, foil behind all radiators. I programme 20c from 6 - 8am rest of day till 5pm 19c, from 5pm to 11pm 21c.... but it has to be minus 1 or less for those settings otherwise it's left off. Bedroom is always 18c.
    Shut all curtains and blinds at sunset to help keep heat in.

  12. #12
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie215 View Post
    Mrs has ours set on inferno and still says she's cold.....meanwhile I'm in shorts and T shirt.
    Ha ha! Mine is always turning off the heating 'cos she's too hot! Now where did I put my thermals.....
    Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway.

  13. #13
    I tend to heat the lounge from gas fire first thing.

    Heating I put on at between 15-16 on the thermostat when back from work

    I turn it off at night and when out

    Keeping the main room of the house warm via the fire (kept on a v low flame) is way more efficient than heating a whole house of rooms that arent being used?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie215 View Post
    Mrs has ours set on inferno and still says she's cold.....meanwhile I'm in shorts and T shirt.
    Ha ha snap , glad its not just me!!

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter franks View Post
    Ha ha snap , glad its not just me!!

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    Lol....somehow I knew I wouldn't be the only one.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfat33 View Post
    Indeed it is. Nice to have some data to confirm it though. They have a complete house wired up with hundreds of sensors to test their products.
    Run central heating at the temp you want in the rooms - switch on so that it is at a decent temperature (not necessarily your final temp) before you get up. Shut it down so that it the temps are still Ďreasonableí for going to bed.

    Let the temperature fall overnight.

    Your Ďdataí validation is worrying if it was for anything older than 1st year at high school - to prove to young students.

  17. #17
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    Itís a straightforward heat loss situation. Heat loss is proportional to the U values, the surface area, and the temperature difference between inside and outside. The U values are based on heat transfer coefficient, you can reduce this by good insulation, double glazing etc. The surface area us a given, you canít change that unless you buy a smaller house. The temperature differential is within your control, you canít change the outside but you can change the inside, itís the difference between inside and outside temp that Ďdrivesí the heat out if the house.

    Basically, keeping the house at a higher temperature than it needs to be is throwing money away, if the house is empty in the daytime thereís no sense in keeping it at 20 degrees. Hiwever, if the house is occupied for most if the day thereís not much to be gained by having the heating turning itself off, you end up feeling cold and turning it back on!

    Ye cannae change the laws of physics, the larger the temperature differential the bigger the bills.

  18. #18
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    I have two properties - my flat in the east for weekdays (I last used the heating for one night in Dec 2010 when we had prolonged snow) - I prefer the cold ideally 13-15c - and my family home in the west (where my wife has the heating set at 18c, normally 6-9am and 5-10pm, and longer at weekends).

    There was always the question whether to keep the heating on lower for longer, or higher in shorter bursts. The answer is not that clear cut (see Q&A #1).
    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ut...-saving-myths/

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    Run central heating at the temp you want in the rooms - switch on so that it is at a decent temperature (not necessarily your final temp) before you get up. Shut it down so that it the temps are still Ďreasonableí for going to bed.

    Let the temperature fall overnight.

    Your Ďdataí validation is worrying if it was for anything older than 1st year at high school - to prove to young students.
    Thankfully a lot of the people designing these new smart systems arenít much older than students, so they tend to be a bit more inquisitive about the factors to take into account.

    The top half of a house cools slower overnight than the ground floor (by about 1-2 degrees in our case). Conversely, many people like their bedrooms cooler than their living rooms as it is easier to sleep.

    Depending on the outside temperature and factors like heat from the sun through windows, and the interior design of your home, the time you need the heating to come on in different parts of your home to reach a Ďdecentí temperature by the time you get up, will vary.

    If everyone goes out, the heating can be turned off, but it needs to be turned on far enough in advance of you returning to make sure it is comfortable when you get in, probably at different times in different areas of the house.

    Unless you have a heating engineer permanently in your house you need some kind of intelligent control of the whole system, acting on your requests and the data it receives, using rules and algorithms developed in laboratories, to learn best how to keep your home comfortable in the most efficient way.

    Figuring out how to make all this work is what the labs are for. As a side benefit it also helps confirm the answers to apparently simple questions like Ďis it cheaper just to leave my heating on?í

  20. #20
    Journeyman ELD1970's Avatar
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    Since having Hive installed a few years ago Iíve definitely noted a drop in energy bills. My daughter just had Nest installed and finds it a lot easier to use then Hive. Iím not a Hive salesman btw


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  21. #21
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfat33 View Post
    Thankfully a lot of the people designing these new smart systems arenít much older than students, so they tend to be a bit more inquisitive about the factors to take into account.

    The top half of a house cools slower overnight than the ground floor (by about 1-2 degrees in our case). Conversely, many people like their bedrooms cooler than their living rooms as it is easier to sleep.

    Depending on the outside temperature and factors like heat from the sun through windows, and the interior design of your home, the time you need the heating to come on in different parts of your home to reach a Ďdecentí temperature by the time you get up, will vary.

    If everyone goes out, the heating can be turned off, but it needs to be turned on far enough in advance of you returning to make sure it is comfortable when you get in, probably at different times in different areas of the house.

    Unless you have a heating engineer permanently in your house you need some kind of intelligent control of the whole system, acting on your requests and the data it receives, using rules and algorithms developed in laboratories, to learn best how to keep your home comfortable in the most efficient way.

    Figuring out how to make all this work is what the labs are for. As a side benefit it also helps confirm the answers to apparently simple questions like Ďis it cheaper just to leave my heating on?í
    Absolutely - there are clever controls that can be integrated (at a cost) to increase comfort/reduce running costs. My comments were in relation to the basic question of leave running/shut down. The basic principal of shutting off entirely when possible - is still valid with Ďsmartí controls.
    Also - that Ďprovingí the laws of thermodynamics empirically - is something that is really high-school yr 1 or 2 material.

  22. #22
    Master mr noble's Avatar
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    Iím amazed at some people saying they ha e their homes at 13-16c. Thatís bloody freezing!

    Are you sure your thermometers are calibrated correctly. Iíd say youíd get ill if you tried to live in a house at 13c day and night.

    Iím in the camp of having a wife who likes to have the heating set close to the surface temp of the sun while swanning around in a skimpy top and joggers all day and night.
    When sheís says it feels cold I tell her to put a jumper on, but she sticks the fan heater on instead.

    Greta Tunberg would not like her.



    Iíve been meaning to look into some kind of smart heating.

    We live in a house built in 2004 which is terribly insulated.

    At the moment (5c or less outside) the heating comes in at 5am - it gets to about 20c when it goes off at 9am and itís then back to 17c by 11am. Not very impressive.

    Iíd like to have smart trvs so we can keep the rooms we use warmer than those we donít.

    The smart systems seem to get hugely expensive when you add on a dozen TRVs.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    IThe smart systems seem to get hugely expensive when you add on a dozen TRVs.
    As an alternative, we have 2 zones, each with a smart thermostat. Realistically, adjacent rooms canít be at dramatically different temperatures, but upstairs and downstairs can be. Two smart thermostats plus the plumbing and extra valve to have upstairs and downstairs controlled separately was less than fitting wireless TRVs to all our radiators and I think more effective.

    Just a thought.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Iím amazed at some people saying they ha e their homes at 13-16c. Thatís bloody freezing!

    Are you sure your thermometers are calibrated correctly. Iíd say youíd get ill if you tried to live in a house at 13c day and night.

    Iím in the camp of having a wife who likes to have the heating set close to the surface temp of the sun while swanning around in a skimpy top and joggers all day and night.
    When sheís says it feels cold I tell her to put a jumper on, but she sticks the fan heater on instead.

    Greta Tunberg would not like her.



    Iíve been meaning to look into some kind of smart heating.

    We live in a house built in 2004 which is terribly insulated.

    At the moment (5c or less outside) the heating comes in at 5am - it gets to about 20c when it goes off at 9am and itís then back to 17c by 11am. Not very impressive.

    Iíd like to have smart trvs so we can keep the rooms we use warmer than those we donít.

    The smart systems seem to get hugely expensive when you add on a dozen TRVs.

    Do you not have thermostatic radiator valves fitted?

  25. #25
    Iím amazed at some people saying they ha e their homes at 13-16c. Thatís bloody freezing!
    i donít think my flat could even get that low, i would have to leave it unoccupied and unheated for a few days, it drops to about 18 overnight if itís 0ļ or below outside and maybe a little below that in the bedroom. (80ís build with 270mm insulated loft but dormers are just tile hung stud work with jablite so not up to current regs/triple glazed windows/2 external walls)
    thermometer is modern digital weather station type and housed in the living room. usually drops to 19.5ļ if heating off for a few hours but quickly up to 20-22.5ļ depending on what program it to. those with 13-16ļ temps must be living in stone built or non-cavity buildings with no heating or the thermometer is inaccurate.

  26. #26
    We have a 3 storey house, wet under floor heating on the ground floor 24/7 at 20c (with zoned thermostats) with the other 2 floors on radiators, each with a thermo valve and a remote thermostat on the top landing. The rads are on timers morning and evening but often the underfloor warms the house sufficiently so the rads come on quite rarely. I was advised to leave the underfloor on by various heating engineers and as the house is almost always occupied it seems to work. My combined gas/electric works out at around £130 a month which for a 6 bed detached seems pretty reasonable?


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  27. #27
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Just get a Hive controller, and let a Russian Hacker set it for you.



    I work from home, so mine's on from 5am (to give it chance to warm up a bit before the dog wakes us up), though to about nine thirty PM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    I was advised to leave the underfloor on by various heating engineers
    Wet underfloor heating systems require a thermostat that has a setback temperature (ie a double thermostat, one temp for "on" and another for "off"). Usually UFH should be set around 4 degrees lower than the on temperature so the floor/room never falls below that temperature. Several reasons for that inc thermal inertia of the concrete block the pipes are set into, it would take an age to heat back up again so the "two hours in morning" wouldn't even get the room warm if the floor temp fell to ambient during the night. Secondly, the water temperature in the UFH pipes is a lot lower than normal rads (which run at c 70 degrees). This is created by the manifold/UFH pump which mixes main CH hot water (70C) with returning UFH water to maintain a much lower temperature to avoid cracking the floor or making it too hot to walk on.

    The much lower temperature of the floor heating vs room temp (delta T) means it takes much longer to heat the room.

    Note, this does not apply in the case of electric UFH as this is not installed the same way.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by broxie View Post
    Wet underfloor heating systems require a thermostat that has a setback temperature (ie a double thermostat, one temp for "on" and another for "off"). Usually UFH should be set around 4 degrees lower than the on temperature so the floor/room never falls below that temperature. Several reasons for that inc thermal inertia of the concrete block the pipes are set into, it would take an age to heat back up again so the "two hours in morning" wouldn't even get the room warm if the floor temp fell to ambient during the night. Secondly, the water temperature in the UFH pipes is a lot lower than normal rads (which run at c 70 degrees). This is created by the manifold/UFH pump which mixes main CH hot water (70C) with returning UFH water to maintain a much lower temperature to avoid cracking the floor or making it too hot to walk on.

    The much lower temperature of the floor heating vs room temp (delta T) means it takes much longer to heat the room.

    Note, this does not apply in the case of electric UFH as this is not installed the same way.
    Very useful thanks as I'm hopefully just about to move into a house with wet underfloor heating throughout the ground floor.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Iím amazed at some people saying they ha e their homes at 13-16c. Thatís bloody freezing!

    Are you sure your thermometers are calibrated correctly. Iíd say youíd get ill if you tried to live in a house at 13c day and night.
    We have ours at 13 degrees from 8am 'till 4pm and then 9pm 'till 8am then next day. During the day we're either out and about or going in and out all the time or we put another jumper on! At night we're cosy in bed... in fact we always have a bedroom window open! The other morning, at 5am, I notice the bedroom was 11 degrees.
    For the evening the stove gets lit c. 5pm so the thermostat switches off by 6:30 anyway.

    Now my father in law NEVER has his heating on. His house is damn cold and damp. He's one of these pensioners that wears thermals, jumpers, scarf etc... when indoors. His winter fuel allowance pays for his whole 12 months of gas!

  31. #31
    Journeyman boris9's Avatar
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    21 when we are in during the day, 19 when we are not and 16 overnight. Weíve an old property with large basement, which means the ground floor is always chillier than upstairs so we now control these rooms via TRV.

    No matter the temp setting, my wife always wants it 3 degrees higher.


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  32. #32
    Journeyman Chiefs's Avatar
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    We recently had wet under flooring heating installed downstairs over three zones, upstairs is via rads. Currently using a Heatmiser application to control all 4 zones plus the hot water. It's taking some adjustments to get it right, but now I keep UFH at 19 overnight then increase to 21 early morning (room temp, not floor sensors). Rads go down to 18 for night then 20 during the day. Most rads also have TRV's so I'm tweaking each room. My energy bills have gone down loads since the new combi boiler and above setup has been installed.
    UHF is a lovely heat, although I do seem to go from perfect temp to feeling hot with little exertion. Probably just me.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Very useful thanks as I'm hopefully just about to move into a house with wet underfloor heating throughout the ground floor.
    Iíve lived in the house for 4 years and tbh didnít understand a word of that!! I just keep the UHF switched on all winter, each of the 5 zones is set at 20, the conservatory at 5 as we donít use it in the winter, thatís it. And it seems to keep the house toasty enough that the rads on the 2 floors above are needed less than youíd expect. No idea how the 2 temps thing works - the house was built in 2000 so maybe thatís a new thing or is controlled somewhere in the system? Anyhow also seems reasonably cheap to run this way so no complaints from me!


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  34. #34
    Heating? Pah, luxury.
    On day 10 of no heating or hot water. Ran out of oil (oops), got a refill the other day, but oil not coming through. Got a man coming tomorrow, so the wife might start talking to me again. Never mind, at least I'll be warm

    Brighty

  35. #35
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Iím amazed at some people saying they ha e their homes at 13-16c. Thatís bloody freezing!

    Are you sure your thermometers are calibrated correctly. Iíd say youíd get ill if you tried to live in a house at 13c day and night.

    .
    I broke out my calibrated kitchen thermometer having seen this thread. After letting it sit for 20 minutes, it read 13C in my living room.

    I turn the heating on for an hour or two at 6pm, but that's it. I was brought with the guidance that if I'm cold, just put another layer on. My level of the building just has horse hari insulation, and it is not overly effective. Occasionally my bedroom has been at 0C come bed time.

  36. #36
    Master Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    Occasionally my bedroom has been at 0C come bed time.
    Reminds me when I was a kid, we had no CH and ice formed on the inside of my bedroom windows. We never ailed anything because the germs didn't like it. Oh and those prickly RAF blankets weren't half prickly😂

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    Reminds me when I was a kid, we had no CH and ice formed on the inside of my bedroom windows. We never ailed anything because the germs didn't like it. Oh and those prickly RAF blankets weren't half prickly
    I can also recall ice on the inside of my bedroom windows in the mornings but that was down to single glazed windows and living on the North Yorkshire coast! With modern double glazing it just doesn't happen these days.

    Having just fitted a Tado system to my (oil) boiler with loads of Tado TRVs (though not in bedrooms) I have the heating set to come on from 05:45 to 07:15 and from 16:00 to 23:00. The general temperature setting is 20 degrees though the en-suite bathroom is heated to 23 degrees in the morning. As I'm predominantly working from home until the New Year I manually switch on the heating during the day to heat the Study to 19 degrees. Having the ability to heat just this room and the fidelity that a smart system allows will undoubtedly reduce bills though how long it will take to pay for itself I have no idea.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skier View Post
    I can also recall ice on the inside of my bedroom windows in the mornings but that was down to single glazed windows and living on the North Yorkshire coast! With modern double glazing it just doesn't happen these days.

    Having just fitted a Tado system to my (oil) boiler with loads of Tado TRVs (though not in bedrooms) I have the heating set to come on from 05:45 to 07:15 and from 16:00 to 23:00. The general temperature setting is 20 degrees though the en-suite bathroom is heated to 23 degrees in the morning. As I'm predominantly working from home until the New Year I manually switch on the heating during the day to heat the Study to 19 degrees. Having the ability to heat just this room and the fidelity that a smart system allows will undoubtedly reduce bills though how long it will take to pay for itself I have no idea.
    I think weíve had the tado system a smidge over 2 years now and itís been superb as you say the ability to heat only the used rooms is superb.
    in winter months it seems to be saving us roughly £40 a month going off past bills Iíd say around £250-£280 a year for us Iíve not actually sat down and worked it out to the £1 but I wonít be far off with that.

  39. #39
    Master
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    Ive gt hive and TRV's on every radiator can't say ive noticed any saving on bills yet as we haven't been using them that long but they all work independantly of one another and it means we are not hearting rooms that we no longer use so im sure it will pay for itself over time

  40. #40
    I donít understand the hair shirt when it comes to heating, I too grew up with no heating upstairs, ice on the inside of single glazed windows etc, thatís why I now have triple glazing and central heating!
    Lifeís too short to not be able to see the tv properly because you can see your breath when you exhale.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    I donít understand the hair shirt when it comes to heating, I too grew up with no heating upstairs, ice on the inside of single glazed windows etc, thatís why I now have triple glazing and central heating!
    Lifeís too short to not be able to see the tv properly because you can see your breath when you exhale.
    For myself, I just don't see the issue. It is a bit nippy, so what? All a matter of perspective. I do not tend to see being cold as a negative thing. I live for the winter.

  42. #42
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    I have changed my approach this year.

    In previous years rooms would be closed off when not needed eg dining room and controlled using programable trvs.

    This year i have opened up the house and set trvs to maintain a warmer temperature throughout all rooms. the house is more consistent in temperature. Nest seems to be benefiting from a more average temperature and Iím not ending up with cold spots or finding im boosting temperature manually.

    I have turned down the heating thermostat on the boiler so the heating is circulating more without the burner firing, obviously this means the radiators donít get to a high temperature but they donít need to as the house temperature doesnít need to rise so much.

    I much prefer it, might be costing a little more but the house is definitely consistently warmer overall.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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