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Thread: Patents, IP and ownership?

  1. #1

    Patents, IP and ownership?

    Afternoon TZ,

    Rather OT, but I'm trying to find out about a 'patented algorithm SIAE 009325' - but can find absolutely nothing about it on the European Patent Office (https://www.epo.org/searching-for-patents.html).

    I've found the SIAE site (https://www.siae.it/en/autori-ed-edi...ister-software), but it doesn't appear to be a patent site, but rather a means of registering your product/creation through them.

    Any pointers on how to search for 'patented algorithms'?

  2. #2
    Surely if its not on the former then it is not patented in EU?


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  3. #3
    AFAIK (not a lawyer and certainly not an IP lawyer), algorithms cannot be patented in the EU because they are protected as mathematical facts. However, in practice, computer algorithms are commonly patented as "a method to do X with a computer". Whether or not such patents are legally enforceable is a very murky area. This is a lot more common in the US, which has much looser protections against patenting computer algorithms and specifically allows business method patents, which the EU and UK do not (although enforcement in the rest of the EU is a bit looser than the UK).

    It is my understanding that it is no longer completely impossible in the UK/EU, although it is commonly believed to be. I believe the main workaround in the EU is to patent a specific device, say a medical scanner, that uses <algorithm for medical scanners> and use a very broad definition of what constitutes the medical scanner part, so that for all intents and purposes the algorithm itself is patented.

    As far as I can tell, SIAE is the Italian copyright registry and mainly deals with music licencing. So anything registered with them is covered by copyright, not a patent. It might be patented as well, but the patent would need to cover something other than just the algorithm itself. I'm not sure how you'd track that down. More than likely they are just using the wrong word, perhaps by mistake, or to create deliberate confusion.

  4. #4
    Algorithms as such aren't patentable (Article 52 EPC), so at best the marking is inaccurate. The UKIPO provides some good documents on IP that I'd recommend if you need to know more.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluehase284 View Post
    Surely if its not on the former then it is not patented in EU?


    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathtower View Post
    Algorithms as such aren't patentable (Article 52 EPC), so at best the marking is inaccurate. The UKIPO provides some good documents on IP that I'd recommend if you need to know more.
    This is very useful information, thank you both.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    AFAIK (not a lawyer and certainly not an IP lawyer), algorithms cannot be patented in the EU because they are protected as mathematical facts. However, in practice, computer algorithms are commonly patented as "a method to do X with a computer". Whether or not such patents are legally enforceable is a very murky area. This is a lot more common in the US, which has much looser protections against patenting computer algorithms and specifically allows business method patents, which the EU and UK do not (although enforcement in the rest of the EU is a bit looser than the UK).

    It is my understanding that it is no longer completely impossible in the UK/EU, although it is commonly believed to be. I believe the main workaround in the EU is to patent a specific device, say a medical scanner, that uses <algorithm for medical scanners> and use a very broad definition of what constitutes the medical scanner part, so that for all intents and purposes the algorithm itself is patented.

    As far as I can tell, SIAE is the Italian copyright registry and mainly deals with music licencing. So anything registered with them is covered by copyright, not a patent. It might be patented as well, but the patent would need to cover something other than just the algorithm itself. I'm not sure how you'd track that down. More than likely they are just using the wrong word, perhaps by mistake, or to create deliberate confusion.
    Very well dug up, thank you, I've contacted SIAE about this as finding the information relating to this registered algorithm on their site itself is proving fruitless.

    It's very interesting what you're all saying about algorithms not generally being patentable - certainly fits with what I've read since. Yet to find out if this is indeed associated with a specific device though.

    I really appreciate all your input, thank you kindly again.

  7. #7
    Don't think you'll be able to see the algorithm itself, just author, description etc.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Don't think you'll be able to see the algorithm itself, just author, description etc.
    Yes indeed, but they have no information whatsoever on it, including author and description! It may be that they do not permit you to search for what they hold, rather relying on you to find out elsewhere what they hold and then apply with that indirect information.

  9. #9
    This might be a form to get some information on the one you want, but you may need more info first than you already have!

    https://www.siae.it/sites/default/fi...e_software.pdf

  10. #10
    Master Franco's Avatar
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    Siae means “Societa Italiana Autori Editori” historically created to protect artists revenue from their creations. For example if you want to broadcast a song, you pay a sum to the Siae and the author gets his dues. Basically it protects the Copyright of arts creations, and licenses it on behalf of authors.

    It also protects software:

    “PUBLIC REGISTER OF SOFTWARE

    All the published computer programs that respect the originality and creativity requisites can be registered to the Public Register for Software so they can be identified as intellectual properties.
    Moreover, it is possible to register all the deeds transferring all or parts of rights to the economic use related to programs which are already registered. Deeds which are rights of use or warranty on rights to the economic use of the program, and acts of division or acts of society of rights of use can be also registered.
    To register a program, the applicant must send a “declaration” and a “description” to SIAE more than, of course, a sample of the program to deposit on a write-once digital device (CD-ROM, DVD).”
    Last edited by Franco; 4th December 2019 at 19:01.

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