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Thread: Speeding charge on the A9 - some questions

  1. #1
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    Speeding charge on the A9 - some questions

    I have received a "requirement to identify the driver" notice from Police Scotland, in compliance with the terms of Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1998.

    Looking for the forum's guidance please (as I've never been charged for speeding before, and the rules seem to have changed in recent years - now much more expensive!).

    Details:
    • Offence: doing 56 mph in a 40 mph zone, supposedly on a section of roadworks on the A9 (standard limit 60 mph)
    • I think this was an average speed camera (as offence location states: "A9 SB Bankfoot 500m north of Bankfoot north junction to 430m south of B867 junction"
    • Leased car (BMW 520d) - notice received 1st December, dated 28 Nov, with offence dated 4th Nov (22:41)
    • No points on license currently
    • I don't have a dash cam (sadly)
    • I was returning from a 7-hour round trip from Glasgow to Elgin, and don't remember the circumstances at the time (e.g. visibility of the speeding signs, whether there were roadworks on this section of the A9, etc.).
    • I don't normally drive at excessive speeds (e.g. I do 65mph normally on the motorway - party for fuel economy). If the facts behind this fine are correct, it would have been because I didn't notice / see the 40mph signs, and thought it was a 60mph zone.


    From my own reading:
    • 56mph in a 40 zone only just takes me into Band B (i.e. more expensive than Band A)
    • Speeding penalty for Band B 75-125% of weekly income with 4-6 points on license
    • The notice should arrive within 14 days, however there is flexibility around this for hire cars (I assume also for lease cars)


    My questions please:
    1. Is there any scope to challenging the notice on the grounds that it arrived after 27 days, well after the 14 day window? [E.g. should I ask Alphabet when they received notification from Police Scotland as the registered keeper?]
    2. The fact I've been apparently clocked at 56 mph seems quite suspicious to me, given this takes me only just into the Band B bracket. How could this be challenged?
    3. I assume it's worth asking for photographic evidence of the offence details? This may be provided as standard when they eventually issue the fine / proceedings.
    4. How do they derive Weekly Income (for setting the fine), and indeed the points to allocate?
    5. The maximum implied fine for Band B is 125% of weekly income (this could be over £1-1.5k), which seems excessive. As such, is it more common for accused speeders to seek legal advice to challenge these? I might do that (e.g. Which Legal or Just Answer Law).


    I thought I might take a drive up to look at the current signs at that section of the A9, although as a month has passed this may be a waste of time (anything could have changed since then).

    I realise speeding should incur a fine, I am more concerned that the 40 mph signage was inadequate, and the 56 mph statistic seems quite a coincidence.

    Any advice you can give (from knowledge or own past experience) would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by jukeboxs; 2nd December 2019 at 20:34.

  2. #2
    Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    The fines are capped. £1k normal roads £2.5k motorways. I got done doing way over a 30 on country roads near my house by a mobile van and admitted it was me. They sent me a load of paperwork which said plead guilty and you usually get 30% off.

    I was issued SP30 with 6 points and a £493 fine which was a significant discount against the £1k cap that I was expecting. There was an admin fee and a victim surcharge on top. Think it totalled at about £700 but by the time I had updated all the insurance etc it was £1k in the end.

    Can't give any further advice but best of luck.

  3. #3
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    The fines are capped. £1k normal roads £2.5k motorways. I got done doing way over a 30 on country roads near my house by a mobile van and admitted it was me. They sent me a load of paperwork which said plead guilty and you usually get 30% off.

    I was issued SP30 with 6 points and a £493 fine which was a significant discount against the £1k cap that I was expecting. There was an admin fee and a victim surcharge on top. Think it totalled at about £700 but by the time I had updated all the insurance etc it was £1k in the end.

    Can't give any further advice but best of luck.
    Victim surcharge - what a con!

  4. #4
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    The NIP must be received by the registered keeper within 14 days, not necessarily the driver. In this case as long as the hire company got the notice in the requisite time you have no appeal on those grounds.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    It's a clear pay up or argue in court up here; it's far easier to go the former unless you have mega evidence against it which I don't think you have.

    Code SP30, which is 3 points and £100 fine. It's not going to be more, from my experience if you admit guilt it gets processed quickly at the lowest penalty.

    I assume the delay in arrival was the forwarding from the hire company which is outwith the 14 day NOIP regulations, but that is the first thing to double check.

    I've had a few! And we don't have the luxury of those "naughty day courses" instead of the points/fine

  6. #6
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    I got done doing way over a 30 on country roads near my house by a mobile van and admitted it was me. They sent me a load of paperwork which said plead guilty and you usually get 30% off.

    I was issued SP30 with 6 points and a £493 fine which was a significant discount against the £1k cap that I was expecting. There was an admin fee and a victim surcharge on top. Think it totalled at about £700 but by the time I had updated all the insurance etc it was £1k in the end.
    Probably got what you deserved in the end? I'm guessing the roads are 30 limit for a reason.

  7. #7
    Master Omegary's Avatar
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    As David said above, if it's a fixed penalty notice it'll probably be 3 points and £100 fine, I think the max points they can issue is 6 but that's is extreme circumstances.

    I got caught doing around 52 in a 40 limit a couple of years ago and got 3 points and a £100 fine. First ever points in over 30 years of driving so it annoyed me no end and no option to do a speed awareness course.

    As an aside I've just noticed that the points stay on your licence for 4 years these days, I always thought it was 3.

    Cheers,
    Gary

  8. #8
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    You were speeding. Stop looking for an Ďoutí and accept the penalty applied. Simple.

  9. #9
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    Thanks chaps, that's very helpful (and good to get a local view too, thanks David).

  10. #10
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    • The notice should arrive within 14 days, however there is flexibility around this for hire cars (I assume also for lease cars)

    https://www.roadtrafficlaw.com/time-...-notice-or-nip

    This says "In Scotland it is sufficient that the police or Road Safety Camera Partnership can show that they sent the Notice within the 14 days. NOT that you received it within the 14 days"

    - referring to a Notice of Intended Prosecution which appears to be teh same time limit for the ID request.


    http://www.charlesstrachan.com/motor...e-time-limits/
    Last edited by David_D; 2nd December 2019 at 21:52.

  11. #11
    Master bomberman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hops View Post
    The NIP must be received by the registered keeper within 14 days, not necessarily the driver. In this case as long as the hire company got the notice in the requisite time you have no appeal on those grounds.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Iíve seen a number of NIPís that are way beyond the 14 days. Only in the past month, one has come across my desk that was dated 29 or 30 August.

    Iím aware that Essex state on certainly one occasion, that the date of the offence to delivery of the NIP is irrelevant as the prosecution is in the public interest, therefore the NIP is still valid despite the the 14 period.

    B

  12. #12
    Master thegoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    You were speeding. Stop looking for an Ďoutí and accept the penalty applied. Simple.
    Yes, because they never make mistakes, do they ?

  13. #13
    Master RossC's Avatar
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    Massive contraflow at Bankfoot currently. Has been 40 limit at the roadworks for a long time and expected to be there for another 18 months or so - part of the A9 dualling plans.

    They have the small temporary average speed cameras, typical of many roadworks. The roadworks must be around 8 miles long and very memorable for most travelling the A9 regularly. Looks like those temporary cameras are connected after all - many people think these little ones are dummies.

  14. #14
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    Thanks David, that's interesting to read about the different notice requirements for Scotland (a handy website too). I won't raise any objections and take what comes my way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
    Yes, because they never make mistakes, do they ?
    And drivers are never at fault?

  16. #16
    Master jukeboxs's Avatar
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    Thanks Ross - I have just missed the 40mph signs. I was travelling back quite late, so I can only assume limited / no other traffic in my lane (or we were all doing c 56 mph).

    Thanks all, I really appreciate the many replies.

  17. #17
    Master RossC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    Thanks Ross - I have just missed the 40mph signs. I was travelling back quite late, so I can only assume limited / no other traffic in my lane (or we were all doing c 56 mph).
    Thatís what I just said to the wife - must have been late, because itís impossible to even approach 56mph during normal times.

    3 points and £100 fine as expected, then. Hire cars are always the fastest cars on the road

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    It's a clear pay up or argue in court up here; it's far easier to go the former unless you have mega evidence against it which I don't think you have.

    Code SP30, which is 3 points and £100 fine. It's not going to be more, from my experience if you admit guilt it gets processed quickly at the lowest penalty.

    I assume the delay in arrival was the forwarding from the hire company which is outwith the 14 day NOIP regulations, but that is the first thing to double check.

    I've had a few! And we don't have the luxury of those "naughty day courses" instead of the points/fine
    I went on my first speed awareness course today. I really enjoyed it and learned quite a lot, despite beforehand thinking it would be a waste of time and was just a matter of taking the punishment. It wasn't like that at all. All in all a brilliant idea!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossC View Post
    Thatís what I just said to the wife - must have been late, because itís impossible to even approach 56mph during normal times.

    3 points and £100 fine as expected, then. Hire cars are always the fastest cars on the road
    Agreed, I drive that section of road quite regularly and unless it's early in the morning or late at night there isn't much chance of getting above 40 nevermind 50mph!

    Interesting to know the cameras are connected though, I always thought they were fake. Sorry it had to be at your expense.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomberman View Post
    Iíve seen a number of NIPís that are way beyond the 14 days. Only in the past month, one has come across my desk that was dated 29 or 30 August.

    Iím aware that Essex state on certainly one occasion, that the date of the offence to delivery of the NIP is irrelevant as the prosecution is in the public interest, therefore the NIP is still valid despite the the 14 period.

    B
    David Beckham would disagree with you. Itís a legal requirement despite what ĎEssexí may think.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bomberman View Post
    Iíve seen a number of NIPís that are way beyond the 14 days. Only in the past month, one has come across my desk that was dated 29 or 30 August.

    Iím aware that Essex state on certainly one occasion, that the date of the offence to delivery of the NIP is irrelevant as the prosecution is in the public interest, therefore the NIP is still valid despite the the 14 period.

    B
    Does this mean that Essex (Police?) have re-written the Road Traffic Act, or just choose to ignore it?
    The NIP is meant to there to protect the motorist who should have 14 days to be made aware that proceedings may be taken against them for a limited number of offences, speeding being one. The time limit is important so that events are still relatively fresh in the motorists mind. It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to recall where they were, never mind what they were doing when a summons arrives 2-3 months after the event. Simply to say it's "in the public interest" to ignore the 14 days (and unless it's been changed it needs to be posted in time to arrive within that time limit or hand delivered) is not really proportionate in my view.
    If the S.172/NIP arrives well out of that time period, then surely any attempted prosecution for the offence must fail. Obviously the requirement to provide driver details will still be live and should be complied with.
    Generally speaking the time limit for a summary only traffic offence prosecution means that a summons must be raised within 6 months of the date of the offence, not necessarily served within that time.
    It looks like the advice already posted is sound. Fill in the requirement to provide driver details, check with the hire car company when the S.172/NIP was received, and if it turns out to have been properly served, hope for a FPN.
    There but for the grace of God go us all, Iv'e yet to meet someone who is the perfect driver 100% of the time.

  22. #22
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    I'm just wondering where you stand if you plead guilty as towards speed awareness course they currently offer, you'd have to pay around £130 but no points on your licence would be issued, but i'm not sure wether it's available your side of the border.

    I got caught going through the lights on the east lancs at 50mph unaware the section of the lights i was going through was 40mph, just to clarify parts of the east lancs are 60mph so i share your pain.

    I've read the rest of the post and GQ confirms you don't have the SAC available to you, although GQ sounds like he's had plenty of experience, and you'd only get offered if you have a clean licence and not had it before.
    Last edited by the big fella; 3rd December 2019 at 01:09.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big fella View Post
    and you'd only get offered if you have a clean licence and not had it before.
    I thought there wasnít a limit to how many SAC you can do, just that you canít do one if you have done one within the last three years.
    Iíve done two.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    I thought there wasn’t a limit to how many SAC you can do, just that you can’t do one if you have done one within the last three years.
    I’ve done two.
    I did one 3yrs ago the guy running it said you'd only get it if you hadn't done one before, although i could be wrong, and if you've done two i must be, or you were lucky.
    Where you nicked in the same region? as if you were in different regions that may explain two in 3yrs. As you are right it seems it is every 3yrs, and it also seems information may not be shared nationally between forces, so that may explain the two in 3 years.
    Last edited by the big fella; 3rd December 2019 at 02:19.

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    Master Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    And drivers are never at fault?
    Of course they are....but do you ever stop to check your change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Code SP30, which is 3 points and £100 fine. It's not going to be more, from my experience if you admit guilt it gets processed quickly at the lowest penalty.
    I thought the same but my SP30 is 6 points and £493. Also the 14 day post thing is only from fixed cameras. I was done by a parked van and it took months, the 14 days didn't apply.

    If you're going more than 10mph over the limit you're into a different band and not eligible for the speed awareness course.

    Horrible.

  27. #27
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    Speeding charge on the A9 - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    Of course they are....but do you ever stop to check your change?
    Completely different things.

    But to answer your question, very , very rarely. I use cash so little these days.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by trident-7 View Post
    I went on my first speed awareness course today. I really enjoyed it and learned quite a lot, despite beforehand thinking it would be a waste of time and was just a matter of taking the punishment. It wasn't like that at all. All in all a brilliant idea!
    I think if you go to them in a good frame of mind, you can take a lot from them .
    When I did mine , I was the only guilty one there . 😉

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
    Does this mean that Essex (Police?) have re-written the Road Traffic Act, or just choose to ignore it?
    The NIP is meant to there to protect the motorist who should have 14 days to be made aware that proceedings may be taken against them for a limited number of offences, speeding being one. The time limit is important so that events are still relatively fresh in the motorists mind. It would be unreasonable to expect anyone to recall where they were, never mind what they were doing when a summons arrives 2-3 months after the event. Simply to say it's "in the public interest" to ignore the 14 days (and unless it's been changed it needs to be posted in time to arrive within that time limit or hand delivered) is not really proportionate in my view.
    If the S.172/NIP arrives well out of that time period, then surely any attempted prosecution for the offence must fail. Obviously the requirement to provide driver details will still be live and should be complied with.
    Generally speaking the time limit for a summary only traffic offence prosecution means that a summons must be raised within 6 months of the date of the offence, not necessarily served within that time.
    It looks like the advice already posted is sound. Fill in the requirement to provide driver details, check with the hire car company when the S.172/NIP was received, and if it turns out to have been properly served, hope for a FPN.
    There but for the grace of God go us all, Iv'e yet to meet someone who is the perfect driver 100% of the time.
    The problem in Essex is that if the police said you did it, you did it, unless you are prepared to spend a considerable amount of money to defend it that you cannot recover.

    OP if you have a clean licence pay up.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    I thought the same but my SP30 is 6 points and £493. Also the 14 day post thing is only from fixed cameras. I was done by a parked van and it took months, the 14 days didn't apply.

    If you're going more than 10mph over the limit you're into a different band and not eligible for the speed awareness course.

    Horrible.
    It's 10% plus 9mph

  31. #31
    Craftsman Templogin's Avatar
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    I rarely drive on the mainland, so in respect of these average speed cameras on the A9, do they point at the front or the back of the vehicle? The reason that I am asking is because a motorcycle usually only has one registration plate at the back. Last year I drove through a lot of restricted speed roadworks, lane splitting, and I received absolutely no speeding tickets, when I may have accidentally gone over the limit. I wonder if a motorcycle lane-splitting confuses the cameras.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    I thought the same but my SP30 is 6 points and £493. Also the 14 day post thing is only from fixed cameras. I was done by a parked van and it took months, the 14 days didn't apply.

    If you're going more than 10mph over the limit you're into a different band and not eligible for the speed awareness course.

    Horrible.
    As far as Iím aware, it doesnít matter if the NIP is from a fixed camera or a mobile camera, the 14 days to notify rule still applies.

    https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q557.htm

  33. #33
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    The NIP used to be sent Royal Mail recorded delivery with the slip attached to the file as proof of postage to arrive within 14 days. As long as it was sent, the law was deemed to have been complied with even if the recipient claims it was not received.

  34. #34
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    Not necessarily

    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    Also the 14 day post thing is only from fixed cameras.
    A notice of intended prosecution is required for any applicable offence where the driver is not told at the time that proceedings may follow. Could be a fixed camera, or a single officer with corroborating evidence (i.e. hand-held laser device, calibrated speedo, 2 experienced officers together can form an opinion that a vehicle was speeding).

    It also applies to careless/dangerous driving, failing to comply with certain signs and several others.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big fella View Post
    I did one 3yrs ago the guy running it said you'd only get it if you hadn't done one before, although i could be wrong, and if you've done two i must be, or you were lucky.
    Where you nicked in the same region? as if you were in different regions that may explain two in 3yrs. As you are right it seems it is every 3yrs, and it also seems information may not be shared nationally between forces, so that may explain the two in 3 years.
    You have misunderstood me. Iíve done two but they were more than 3 years apart. Both in Bridgend County Borough though.

  36. #36
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    You were speeding. Stop looking for an Ďoutí and accept the penalty applied. Simple.
    Yep. Pay up, learn lesson, move on.

  37. #37
    Master Chukas's Avatar
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    Just take the 3 points and fine, been 40mph for a while there.

  38. #38
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegary View Post
    As David said above, if it's a fixed penalty notice it'll probably be 3 points and £100 fine, I think the max points they can issue is 6 but that's is extreme circumstances.

    I got caught doing around 52 in a 40 limit a couple of years ago and got 3 points and a £100 fine. First ever points in over 30 years of driving so it annoyed me no end and no option to do a speed awareness course.

    As an aside I've just noticed that the points stay on your licence for 4 years these days, I always thought it was 3.

    Cheers,
    Gary
    They stay on your licence for 4 years but are only Ďactiveí for 3 and arenít used towards totting up after 3 years.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  39. #39
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    I view speeding fines as a tax on all the times you did it but were never caught. Touch wood, I've had a clean licence for 30+ years since my "bad boy" 20's.

    I grew up in Essex. The police there in the 1970s were definitely dodgy, I had 7 endorsements at one point for the most trivial items as I was always being picked on. These days you'd have some recourse but then they were above the law and an attitude to match.

  40. #40
    Master steptoe's Avatar
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    Seems your defence is based on the Prince Andrew formula ďI canít rememberĒ .... youíve been caught, do what I do, suck it up and think of all the times youíve got away with it.

  41. #41
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    Just be prepared for a slightly higher fine than prescribed. Speeding where roadworks are ongoing, was cracked down on a couple of years ago.

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