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Thread: Seiko Credor Eichi II

  1. #51
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    To be honest it's the GS that make me think otherwise! I like the back of the Credor but it wouldn't be my personal unit of currency to represent £40k, though it would at least be an unusual and discrete choice. Personally, the GS (or at least some of them) make me happy to spend a fair amount on a watch made by Seiko and question what, 'just a Seiko' actually means in practice, instead of questioning the quality of the watch based on the brand name. It's a similar situation with Ford cars - if you had only seen the Mondeo, you could assume the GT40 is 'just a Ford', or you could revise your idea of the brand to include the unexpected information that they also make cars that won at Le Mans.

    Not a great example, given the GT40 started life as a Lola and much of its "winning" was outsourced to Carrol Shelby and John Wyer. It did carry a Ford engine, but one hugely modified. So yes it carried a Ford badge, but then so did many other cars, but it's not a true Ford unlike the Mondeo (which actually is pretty good if you like that sort of thing).

    A better example might be if McDonald's started to sell Kobe beef, the steaks might be excellent, they are very expensive and taste wonderful, but at the end of the day you are still eating in a McDonalds.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  2. #52
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    Honda.
    NSX?

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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    A better example might be if McDonald's started to sell Kobe beef, the steaks might be excellent, they are very expensive and taste wonderful, but at the end of the day you are still eating in a McDonalds.
    Don't get it. Surely what's important is the Kobe beef.

    To stretch the analogy, is it OK to eat poorly so long as the venue is exclusive?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pupp View Post
    Honda.
    NSX?

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    Badged Acura in the US for just this reason. Brands have never bothered me one way or another (well not since I was a kid), I am just comfortable with what I like. On the other hand, my wife is always considering such things and it feels exhausting.

  5. #55
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    That moment when people try to make a point about lack of value-for-money in a luxury watch discussion...


  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    A better example might be if McDonald's started to sell Kobe beef, the steaks might be excellent, they are very expensive and taste wonderful, but at the end of the day you are still eating in a McDonalds.
    A better example might be if Swatch owned Omega, is James Bond wearing ‘just a Swatch’? Oh wait, Swatch do own Omega. However I do get your point, branding is not trivial, and if that’s how you feel there’s little point in trying to change your mind, no matter how good the actual watches are. A watch is a beautiful machine wrapped in a dream, and you have to like both. The dream is not trivial - you could take two identical baseball caps, pens or cheap mouse matts and put a Vacheron Constantin logo on one and a LIDL logo on the other. It’s pretty obvious which one will sell faster and for more. You could say they’re exactly the same, but they’re not - one makes you think of snow capped mountains and royalty, the other makes you think of frozen peas.

    I’m yet to be drawn in to the Credor style and brand story and am not the target audience anyway, but the GS story works just fine. Their striking 60s designs, battle to out-Swiss the Swiss, and images of ancient craftsman gazing out over Mount Fuji while polishing the Samurai Sword hands makes a pleasant change from the usual Swiss elves. And the right models turn out, on close examination, to be very good indeed. But if you don’t like the dream, you’ll never see the reality. If Seiko had made the Sistine Chapel, you’d probably think it was ‘just a Seiko’ Sistine Chapel. And that’s fine, each to their own. Though it’s noticeable that you used to hear this ‘just a Seiko’ line a lot more. You hear it less and less these days.

  7. #57
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    A better example might be if Swatch owned Omega, is James Bond wearing ‘just a Swatch’? Oh wait, Swatch do own Omega. However I do get your point, branding is not trivial, and if that’s how you feel there’s little point in trying to change your mind, no matter how good the actual watches are. A watch is a beautiful machine wrapped in a dream, and you have to like both. The dream is not trivial - you could take two identical baseball caps, pens or cheap mouse matts and put a Vacheron Constantin logo on one and a LIDL logo on the other. It’s pretty obvious which one will sell faster and for more. You could say they’re exactly the same, but they’re not - one makes you think of snow capped mountains and royalty, the other makes you think of frozen peas.

    I’m yet to be drawn in to the Credor style and brand story and am not the target audience anyway, but the GS story works just fine. Their striking 60s designs, battle to out-Swiss the Swiss, and images of ancient craftsman gazing out over Mount Fuji while polishing the Samurai Sword hands makes a pleasant change from the usual Swiss elves. And the right models turn out, on close examination, to be very good indeed. But if you don’t like the dream, you’ll never see the reality. If Seiko had made the Sistine Chapel, you’d probably think it was ‘just a Seiko’ Sistine Chapel. And that’s fine, each to their own. Though it’s noticeable that you used to hear this ‘just a Seiko’ line a lot more. You hear it less and less these days.
    Beautifully put.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    That moment when people try to make a point about lack of value-for-money in a luxury watch discussion...

    Facepalm right back at you.
    You totally misconstrued the argument
    It is not about the intrinsic value of the watch at all.
    It is about the fact that IMO and several others for the same money you can get other more satisfying or appealing watches. They would potentially be as ghastly in VFM department.
    It is about the joy/satisfaction that you get from a 40,000 outlay. If someone likes it at that price point, good for them. Who cares if it costs 2 or 3 or 5000 to make.
    Last edited by RAJEN; 5th December 2019 at 11:28.

  9. #59
    Master amnesia's Avatar
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    The Eichi II is my 'one watch' as stated on this thread : https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...=1#post5087769

    If I had my pick of ANY watch, for free, I'd pick this.


    You either 'get it'... or you don't.

  10. #60
    Definitely watch snobbery creeping in here amongst a few, oh it's only a Seiko. So what, just because they do sports watches and divers from around the £100 price point doesn't make them bad. Quite the opposite, those watches are some of the best watches in that price point around. Sure they make more expensive watches going up into four figures and the Grand Seiko and Credor are another level.

    If the dial said Patek people would be slathering all over it, but as an example I would take the Seiko pictured that looked very arts and crafts with hand hammered effect case over a Nautilus any day of the week.

  11. #61
    Ken, you are missing the point. Big time.
    Other than Andy ( somewhat ) saying that he wouldn’t spend this money on Seiko, what most people are saying is they wouldn’t spend that money on THIS Seiko. I am a big fan of GS divers and while not completely sold over Credor there are a couple that I do like at their prices. FWIW, I am also not a fan of Nautilus (5711) but like the ones with complications.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Definitely watch snobbery creeping in here amongst a few, oh it's only a Seiko. So what, just because they do sports watches and divers from around the £100 price point doesn't make them bad. Quite the opposite, those watches are some of the best watches in that price point around. Sure they make more expensive watches going up into four figures and the Grand Seiko and Credor are another level.

    If the dial said Patek people would be slathering all over it, but as an example I would take the Seiko pictured that looked very arts and crafts with hand hammered effect case over a Nautilus any day of the week.
    Sadly, that “hand hammered” one is now sold out worldwide. This, on the other hand, it’s cheaper brother, is still available on special order from the gnomes in Japan. Credors, either in RG or platinum, are more readily available from stock in GS boutiques.






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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Aside from preoccupations with wealth or stealth, something that reveals its quality slowly and subtly is good if you wish to spend years being impressed by it, and not so good if you want others to be instantaneously impressed.
    I think I'd prefer it with a plain dial - the name means nothing to me and distracts from the rest of the dial, which I'm sure would be lovely in real life.

  14. #64
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    Interesting fact around Zaratsu polishing. This has been promoted as a GS exclusive technique steeped in ancient Japanese tradition but actually stems from the parent company of Minase watches called Kyowa.

    Basically in the 30s, Kyowa decided to get into watch case manufacturing and finishing and acquired a watch polishing machine from a German company called Sallaz. This German company was supplying watch case polishing machines to companies like Patek Philippe.

    Anyway Kyowa acquired the rights to this company and manufactured watch polishing machines based upon the Sallaz design. They employed the same meticulous watch polishing techniques that the Sallaz-using manufactures such as Patek were using to provide superbly finished watches. Kyowa decided to give a name to this technique. Now, anyone who speaks Japanese will know that to turn a noun in Japanese into an action you add -zu to the end. So, given the fact this polishing technique was done on Sallaz machines, the term for this type of polishing became called 'Sallaz-zu' in Japanese. 'Sallaz-zu' quickly became known as 'Zaratsu'.

    So this supposed ancient Japanese polishing art has its background in 1930s watch polishing techniques in haute horologie Switzerland, done on German machines. And it is Kyowa, the parent company of Minase watches who brought this to Japan and actually coined the phrase. Grand Seiko seem to have 'borrowed it' but if you want to see 'Sallaz-zu' AKA 'Zaratsu' at its finest check out Minase NOT Grand Seiko

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  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Sadly, that “hand hammered” one is now sold out worldwide. This, on the other hand, it’s cheaper brother, is still available on special order from the gnomes in Japan. Credors, either in RG or platinum, are more readily available from stock in GS boutiques.






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    I can put a hammered finish on that one if you like?
    Beat and amplitude might be a tad off afterwards🤓

  16. #66
    Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Definitely watch snobbery creeping in here amongst a few, oh it's only a Seiko. So what, just because they do sports watches and divers from around the £100 price point doesn't make them bad. Quite the opposite, those watches are some of the best watches in that price point around. Sure they make more expensive watches going up into four figures and the Grand Seiko and Credor are another level.

    If the dial said Patek people would be slathering all over it, but as an example I would take the Seiko pictured that looked very arts and crafts with hand hammered effect case over a Nautilus any day of the week.
    And for the Watch Snobs they should realise that historically it is the Swiss brands that were cheap copies. Swiss companies in the early 20th century were making knock-offs of the more prestigious American and British watches and it is the US watch industry that forced Swiss watch manufacturers to put 'Swiss Made' on the dials to differentiate them from the more expensive US originals. Times have changed somewhat just like they have with the Japanese watches- depends how far back you want to go.

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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Sadly, that “hand hammered” one is now sold out worldwide. This, on the other hand, it’s cheaper brother, is still available on special order from the gnomes in Japan. Credors, either in RG or platinum, are more readily available from stock in GS boutiques.






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    Now that is a much better looking watch.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Now that is a much better looking watch.
    In your opinion - I prefer the other one.

  19. #69
    Master Skyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOAT View Post
    I can put a hammered finish on that one if you like?
    Beat and amplitude might be a tad off afterwards邏
    That made me smile.

  20. #70
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Definitely watch snobbery creeping in here amongst a few, oh it's only a Seiko. So what, just because they do sports watches and divers from around the £100 price point doesn't make them bad. Quite the opposite, those watches are some of the best watches in that price point around. Sure they make more expensive watches going up into four figures and the Grand Seiko and Credor are another level.

    If the dial said Patek people would be slathering all over it, but as an example I would take the Seiko pictured that looked very arts and crafts with hand hammered effect case over a Nautilus any day of the week.

    Hang about where did I say they were bad.

    To me Seiko are a bit like Mercedes. As one end they make the Maybach. Handbuilt, very expensive, huge attention to detail, finest materials, etc, etc but ugly as sin. In the middle they offer AMG and S/E/G class which are excellent attractive products made to a very good spec, but much the same as many others. Finally they offer the mass produced rep-mobiles. Again a very nice product, but built to a price and very similar to many others at that end of the market.

    These are all good. I have a Mercedes myself, but they all come from the same stable and share many of the same parts. But what they are not, is a Ferrari, Aston Martin, Toyota, Porsche or Roll Royce.

    Like what you like, buy what you like, but don't expect others to like the same stuff irrespective of what it is. Vive le Difference.

    BTW I share your dislike of the Nautilus.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Hang about where did I say they were bad.

    To me Seiko are a bit like Mercedes. As one end they make the Maybach. Handbuilt, very expensive, huge attention to detail, finest materials, etc, etc but ugly as sin. In the middle they offer AMG and S/E/G class which are excellent attractive products made to a very good spec, but much the same as many others. Finally they offer the mass produced rep-mobiles. Again a very nice product, but built to a price and very similar to many others at that end of the market.

    These are all good. I have a Mercedes myself, but they all come from the same stable and share many of the same parts. But what they are not, is a Ferrari, Aston Martin, Toyota, Porsche or Roll Royce.

    Like what you like, buy what you like, but don't expect others to like the same stuff irrespective of what it is. Vive le Difference.

    BTW I share your dislike of the Nautilus.
    Mate, you have named quite a few parts bin specials there - I see Fiat, Ford, Volvo, VWG and BMW in there, if not more. Not sure that helps your case.
    Last edited by Skyman; 5th December 2019 at 20:01.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Interesting fact around Zaratsu polishing. This has been promoted as a GS exclusive technique steeped in ancient Japanese tradition but actually stems from the parent company of Minase watches called Kyowa.

    Basically in the 30s, Kyowa decided to get into watch case manufacturing and finishing and acquired a watch polishing machine from a German company called Sallaz. This German company was supplying watch case polishing machines to companies like Patek Philippe.

    Anyway Kyowa acquired the rights to this company and manufactured watch polishing machines based upon the Sallaz design. They employed the same meticulous watch polishing techniques that the Sallaz-using manufactures such as Patek were using to provide superbly finished watches. Kyowa decided to give a name to this technique. Now, anyone who speaks Japanese will know that to turn a noun in Japanese into an action you add -zu to the end. So, given the fact this polishing technique was done on Sallaz machines, the term for this type of polishing became called 'Sallaz-zu' in Japanese. 'Sallaz-zu' quickly became known as 'Zaratsu'.

    So this supposed ancient Japanese polishing art has its background in 1930s watch polishing techniques in haute horologie Switzerland, done on German machines. And it is Kyowa, the parent company of Minase watches who brought this to Japan and actually coined the phrase. Grand Seiko seem to have 'borrowed it' but if you want to see 'Sallaz-zu' AKA 'Zaratsu' at its finest check out Minase NOT Grand Seiko

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    I remember reading that a while back when trying to find out how Zaratsu differs from how others finish their cases. Basically, Zaratsu = we have a very good lapping machine and we know how to use it.

  23. #73
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    Seiko Credor Eichi II

    Quote Originally Posted by Dynam0humm View Post
    I remember reading that a while back when trying to find out how Zaratsu differs from how others finish their cases. Basically, Zaratsu = we have a very good lapping machine and we know how to use it.
    Flat surfaces are also part of the philosophy I believe - obviously flat in one axis, as there are also plenty of curving polished surfaces and a bezel isn’t flat, but they’re not convex either. The ‘mirror polish’ is not just about a high polish, but also about polishing that has less distortion, and you can see that in the reflections. It’s inspired by the cutting of gem stones (as are the case shapes) and it does seem to give the polishing a noticeably different look, whether you like the style or not. I don’t know if that applies to every polished surface on every watch, but I can see examples of it.
    Last edited by Itsguy; 6th December 2019 at 12:24.

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