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Thread: Rolex sues customiser

  1. #1
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    Rolex sues customiser

    Rolex have sued a US customiser for counterfeiting -

    https://www.thefashionlaw.com/home/r...erfeit-watches

    I know that they have long refused to service customised watches, but this seems like an escalation of hostilities compared to how they've dealt with the likes of Bamford in the past.

  2. #2
    Hard to believe this could succeed.

    If I buy a Rolex, or any other watch, or any car, or any other item, for that matter, I can alter it in anyway I choose, if I want to put a different dial or hands on it, if i want to DLC it etc etc I can, it is my property, I can customise it as I wish. I can also sell it on subsequently, as long as I describe it accurately.
    .
    There must be something else involved here.



    Mitch

  3. #3
    Rolex continuing to endear themselves to free thinkers everywhere...

    ... just feels so heavy handed and oppressive to see a company selling timepieces behaving like this. I guess the truth is they now believe they're selling something more than timepieces.

  4. #4
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    I think the article explains Rolex's rationale for this pretty clearly. They do not want a company selling a product that has their name on it but with no control over quality assurance or marketing. I think it is fair enough they will want to assert what they can here but still interesting to see what the outcome will be.

  5. #5
    Master Papa Hotel's Avatar
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    Every day's a school day.

    parts, such as dials, crystals (i.e., the cover located between the dial and the hands)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Hotel View Post
    Every day's a school day.

    parts, such as dials, crystals (i.e., the cover located between the dial and the hands)
    Wow, who knew?

  7. #7
    I wonder if they’ll sue Artisans de Geneve next for customising watches to such a high standard that even Rolex themselves can’t meet them.
    The problem here is probably that this particular company has developed a kind of celebrity endorsement and cult following and Rolex would much rather these people bought new. All very petty.

  8. #8
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    Rolex isn't about watches. Its all about the name. The watch is secondary. Its a vehicle to carry the name. They are selling their brand markings (their name) which just happens to be on watches. All by clever marketing over many years. When you buy the Rolex name you get a £500 watch thrown in.

    There are many watches available of similar quality. The only difference is the name. And thousands of punters fall for it. And Rolex laugh all the way to the bank.

    This is why they freak out about any perceived threat to their name. Its the only thing that's different about their product.

    Get a life. Get a Steinhart or something.
    Last edited by Tiny; 20th November 2019 at 09:35.

  9. #9
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    ^^^^^^
    Hilarious

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Hard to believe this could succeed.

    If I buy a Rolex, or any other watch, or any car, or any other item, for that matter, I can alter it in anyway I choose, if I want to put a different dial or hands on it, if i want to DLC it etc etc I can, it is my property, I can customise it as I wish. I can also sell it on subsequently, as long as I describe it accurately.
    .
    There must be something else involved here.



    Mitch
    The problem might be non original parts with Rolex logo on them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    The problem might be non original parts with Rolex logo on them.
    This will be it. If you regard a dial as a significant part of the final sum, badging up a 'copy' dial could be seen as a counterfeiting offence.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    If a customiser takes an authentic dial and then messes it around, that's one thing. Taking a new non Rolex dial and putting Rolex branding on it is straightforward fakery. Hard to feel genuine sympathy for an institution as huge and powerful as Rolex, but I think we're happy with the concept of intellectual property. Who wants to see a market with multiple microbrands supplying Smiths watches?

  13. #13
    Their website states that all dials are refinished Rolex dials. The only aftermarket parts are crystals.

  14. #14
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    Their website states that all dials are refinished Rolex dials. The only aftermarket parts are crystals.
    Sorry, I had been going on what the article said: "The problem, according to Rolex, is that in addition to swapping out its traditional metal wristbands for colorful leather ones (a fair-game move in Rolex’s eyes, as it does not stand to impair the workings of the watches, themselves), laCalifornienne goes a step further. It customizes the watches with a combination of equally colorful – but non-Rolex approved – parts, such as dials, crystals (i.e., the cover located between the dial and the hands), etc. And that is (part of) where*laCalifornienne gets itself in trouble."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    Hard to believe this could succeed.

    If I buy a Rolex, or any other watch, or any car, or any other item, for that matter, I can alter it in anyway I choose, if I want to put a different dial or hands on it, if i want to DLC it etc etc I can, it is my property, I can customise it as I wish. I can also sell it on subsequently, as long as I describe it accurately.
    Yes, true for an individual, but selling something like that commercially - with the Rolex name on - is entirely different!

  16. #16
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    However laCalifornienne are not making their own parts with Rolex logos on. I don't see how this is different from customised cars, sneakers etc. It is another story, nevertheless, if they had made new dials from scratch, for example, with Rolex logos on.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Rolex isn't about watches. Its all about the name. The watch is secondary. Its a vehicle to carry the name. They are selling their brand markings (their name) which just happens to be on watches. All by clever marketing over many years.
    This is certainly true - Hans Wilsdorf's genius was as a marketeer, not as a horologist. This is why Rolex protects their brand name so heavily - it's a hugely aspirational brand (ask the man on the Clapham omnibus to name a luxury watch brand and 99.999% of them will say "Rolex"), and for many people they feel that they have "made it" when they buy themself a Rolex (or a BMW, or a <insert Veblen brand name>).

    Reading the article quoted, it sounds as if Rolex may be on shaky ground here, but the big question is whether laCalifornienne will have deep enough pockets to defend against the might or Rolex's legal department.

  18. #18
    There is a pretty comprehensive disclaimer on their website which covers everything.

  19. #19
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    You mean this?

    Any addition or substitution of parts or accessories with those not manufactured by Rolex, as well as any alteration, modification or other material change made to or on Rolex products by a third party not authorised by Rolex cancels the warranty. Rolex does not approve any modification made by non-authorised third parties on the Rolex products, including the addition of verbal and graphic elements, as well as any customisation activity (such as black coated watches, the addition of aftermarket diamonds, bezels, dials and bracelets etc.). These modifications may harm the quality and the integrity of the Rolex products.
    Nothing about it being illegal to refinish a Rolex dial.

  20. #20
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    US litigation, hence not a surprise

    Similar to Ferrari and its policy of trying to do similar, to protect the brand.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    You mean this?



    Nothing about it being illegal to refinish a Rolex dial.
    I don’t think Rolex can win that argument.

  22. #22
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    Lol. Fair points

    500 might be a an overexaggeration. But true massive margins given the brand name/loyalty


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Rolex isn't about watches. Its all about the name. The watch is secondary. Its a vehicle to carry the name. They are selling their brand markings (their name) which just happens to be on watches. All by clever marketing over many years. When you buy the Rolex name you get a £500 watch thrown in.

    There are many watches available of similar quality. The only difference is the name. And thousands of punters fall for it. And Rolex laugh all the way to the bank.

    This is why they freak out about any perceived threat to their name. Its the only thing that's different about their product.

    Get a life. Get a Steinhart or something.

  23. #23
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    I think what people don't understand is that there's more to a Brand than the name, there's also a level of trust in terms of the quality of the product that comes with being of certain brand.

    Ignoring the status "It's a Rolex", for the lay person (ie 99% of people in the world) Rolex would mean very high quality, reliable, built to last and finished to a high level.

    With this in mind, imagine a non-WIS buying a funky colored "Rolex" because it matches their chinos, despite the dial being refinished to an unknown standard, unknown service history and any number of replaced parts (potentially 3rd party pattern parts) hidden with the case.

    Who gets the flack for the watch being poor quailty after it stops working, a hand falls off, or it leaks etc? Rolex? or the third party that carried out such modifications.
    Most definitely Rolex, because it says Rolex on the dial, to the layperson it's clearly Rolex's fault the modified watch isn't up to standard.

  24. #24
    Lol,Endo.
    I don’t think people who say Rolex is just a name and watches are worth 500 or whatever are meant to be taken seriously.

  25. #25
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    Interesting to see the outcome.

    Rolex used to be the watch you would buy if you needed one solid reliable watch you could take with you on every occasion and knew could be serviced for the rest of your life.

    The watches are still that, only the punters changed, and not for the better.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  26. #26
    Master endo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Lol,Endo.
    I don’t think people who say Rolex is just a name and watches are worth 500 or whatever are meant to be taken seriously.
    Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't.

    But even if they weren't taken seriously, there's alot of folk who just see a big evil corporation that is purposefully not saturating the market with their "hot models", and maliciously over polishes and swaps out buggered dials/bezel at service time.
    So it comes as no surprise to them they're out the to crush "the little guy"

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Lol,Endo.
    I don’t think people who say Rolex is just a name and watches are worth 500 or whatever are meant to be taken seriously.
    It could equally be argued that those who've been taken in by the clever marketing should also not be taken seriously. It's just a watch after all.
    Last edited by Tiny; 20th November 2019 at 17:15.

  28. #28
    I cant see this, does it mean the Mercedes can sue me if I put a set of wheels on or change the colour of my car.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I cant see this, does it mean the Mercedes can sue me if I put a set of wheels on or change the colour of my car.
    Very good argument! Of course it might void the warranty if you tuned the engine or something, and maybe the main agent wouldn't service it. But I doubt they could sue you or a customising company for it.

  30. #30
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    Theoretically, if I take a Rolex, remove the movement and stick in a Miyota and sell it on as a custom piece, would that be permissable? What if I replace every part except for the dial (i.e. it'll say Rolex on the front with it's genuine dial but no other part came from Rolex)?

    Because if the above is permissable, then one could buy a fake Rolex, stick on a genuine Rolex dial and suddenly it's all okay!

    At some point, Rolex are saying that calling it a Rolex when it doesn't include all the Rolex parts is counterfeiting. The question is where that line is drawn.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Very good argument! Of course it might void the warranty if you tuned the engine or something, and maybe the main agent wouldn't service it. But I doubt they could sue you or a customising company for it.
    Is it a good argument though?
    Both Rolex and Mercedes (in this case) and refuse to working on honor the warranty warranty work as the car/watch has been altered from original spec.

    A more accurate analogy is a company modifying and selling a car turnkey to a customer, I.e. RUF, Koenig, Singer, Brabus, Alpina, Gemballa, Overfinch (AMG before Mercedes absorbed them) etc.

    However one thing that differentiates these cars from a modded Rolex, is for the most part the Customizers brand is in the forefront.
    The further they deviate from the original manufactures spec, the more prominent the Customizers brand is. (and these brands themselves have their own cache), and any modified parts will carry the customizers brand.

    I.E.
    -The RUF Yellowbird may be a Porsche, but its clearly branded RUF and they go out of their way to make the consumer know the car they are buying is a RUF not a Porsche.

    -or closer to home (been a while since i've seen a genuine RUF), Khan, Overfinich & Urbran Land/Range Rovers that you see in almost every major town.


    Taking this analogy and apply it to watches,
    -Do you really think a fully modded Bamford/Project X/Titan Black (without any Rolex branding replicated on modified parts like the dial) would sell?
    -Would the Artisans de Genève Daytona plastered with their own brand look right?

    No, because the value is in the Rolex brand itself, which sits and foremost on the dials, Otherwise these companies would have removed it and branded it as their own.

    Until there's an aftermarket company who's brand carries as much weight as Rolex to their able to mod a watch with zero Rolex branding and people know its a "Hypetrain Custom X" Rolex can pretty much sue whoever they want.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by endo View Post
    Is it a good argument though?
    Both Rolex and Mercedes (in this case) and refuse to working on honor the warranty warranty work as the car/watch has been altered from original spec.

    A more accurate analogy is a company modifying and selling a car turnkey to a customer, I.e. RUF, Koenig, Singer, Brabus, Alpina, Gemballa, Overfinch (AMG before Mercedes absorbed them) etc.

    However one thing that differentiates these cars from a modded Rolex, is for the most part the Customizers brand is in the forefront.
    The further they deviate from the original manufactures spec, the more prominent the Customizers brand is. (and these brands themselves have their own cache), and any modified parts will carry the customizers brand.

    I.E.
    -The RUF Yellowbird may be a Porsche, but its clearly branded RUF and they go out of their way to make the consumer know the car they are buying is a RUF not a Porsche.

    -or closer to home (been a while since i've seen a genuine RUF), Khan, Overfinich & Urbran Land/Range Rovers that you see in almost every major town.


    Taking this analogy and apply it to watches,
    -Do you really think a fully modded Bamford/Project X/Titan Black (without any Rolex branding replicated on modified parts like the dial) would sell?
    -Would the Artisans de Genève Daytona plastered with their own brand look right?

    No, because the value is in the Rolex brand itself, which sits and foremost on the dials, Otherwise these companies would have removed it and branded it as their own.

    Until there's an aftermarket company who's brand carries as much weight as Rolex to their able to mod a watch with zero Rolex branding and people know its a "Hypetrain Custom X" Rolex can pretty much sue whoever they want.
    After your more in depth analysis, it would appear that it was not such a good argument as I had first superficially thought. Thanks.

  33. #33
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be delightful if they took the same approach to a certain Burlington Arcade shop who are reputed to have a significant quantity of re-dialed Rolex in their window.
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  34. #34
    Interesting, rolex do have a point in saying la californienne has been profiting on their image but... then so does anyone who sells second hand rolex. However I think what does it is they put their logo on the same face as rolex, it makes me think the two are connected or lc is endorsed and this is unpleasant.
    Yobokies brands his dials but does not keep the seiko logo, nor do dagaz or did mkii.
    I guess it would be different if you took your rolex to lc to be customised but... meh...

    ...
    BUBI 0_0

  35. #35
    However I fail to see how someone would buy a rolex that looks naff and has no market value.
    "Let me personalise this picasso and make it more interesting" kind of.


    ...
    BUBI 0_0

  36. #36
    Incidentally, strapcode has renamed their bracelet, the oyster becoming the o boyer and the jubilee becoming the j something, because rolex complained.

    ...
    BUBI 0_0

  37. #37
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endo View Post
    Is it a good argument though?
    Both Rolex and Mercedes (in this case) and refuse to working on honor the warranty warranty work as the car/watch has been altered from original spec.

    A more accurate analogy is a company modifying and selling a car turnkey to a customer, I.e. RUF, Koenig, Singer, Brabus, Alpina, Gemballa, Overfinch (AMG before Mercedes absorbed them) etc.

    However one thing that differentiates these cars from a modded Rolex, is for the most part the Customizers brand is in the forefront.
    The further they deviate from the original manufactures spec, the more prominent the Customizers brand is. (and these brands themselves have their own cache), and any modified parts will carry the customizers brand.

    I.E.
    -The RUF Yellowbird may be a Porsche, but its clearly branded RUF and they go out of their way to make the consumer know the car they are buying is a RUF not a Porsche.

    -or closer to home (been a while since i've seen a genuine RUF), Khan, Overfinich & Urbran Land/Range Rovers that you see in almost every major town.


    Taking this analogy and apply it to watches,
    -Do you really think a fully modded Bamford/Project X/Titan Black (without any Rolex branding replicated on modified parts like the dial) would sell?
    -Would the Artisans de Genève Daytona plastered with their own brand look right?

    No, because the value is in the Rolex brand itself, which sits and foremost on the dials, Otherwise these companies would have removed it and branded it as their own.

    Until there's an aftermarket company who's brand carries as much weight as Rolex to their able to mod a watch with zero Rolex branding and people know its a "Hypetrain Custom X" Rolex can pretty much sue whoever they want.

    Agreed.

    If Bamford (for example) were prepared to remove the Rolex Logo and grind off the Model Number and Serial number, then I am sure Rolex wouldn't really care, unless of course they were interesting in protecting their IP in the case and crown Design.
    Last edited by Andyg; 20th November 2019 at 22:17.

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  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    Wouldn't it be delightful if they took the same approach to a certain Burlington Arcade shop who are reputed to have a significant quantity of re-dialed Rolex in their window.
    That would be a good start.



    In this instance it looks like Rolex are trying to stop a third party from applying what can only be described as a counterfeit logo, applied by it on a re coloured or completely replaced dial. & selling as a new unused product.
    It's just a matter of time...

  39. #39
    You could argue that the logical extension of some of the arguments above is that Rolex could sue any secondhand dealer who doesn't use an authorized Rolex service centre to service their watches.

    It's an interesting discussion and it'll be fascinating to see the judge's reasoning should it go to court but, as usual, there's no black or white, just shades of grey.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    Wouldn't it be delightful if they took the same approach to a certain Burlington Arcade shop who are reputed to have a significant quantity of re-dialed Rolex in their window.
    so true

  41. #41
    Just came across

    Blackvenomwatch.com

    They dlc coat your watch and do custom rolex ap etc jobs on dials as well

    Where would they stand and for how long?

    Please forgive the old school lazy screenshot

    ...
    BUBI 0_0

  42. #42
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    Paul Thorpe has posted a video discussing this case today. He seemed to be inclining to the view that people were free to customise as long as they didn't then claim that their creation was an original Rolex, equally Rolex had a right to protect their intellectual property.
    He also seemed to think that Rolex may struggle to get the case home based on a potential legal argument about the definition of "customised" & "counterfeit". A customised piece started life as an original, a counterfeit is a straight forward fake, containing no originality.
    One might argue that a customised piece is not an original, in that it has been altered aesthetically, but it is far from a counterfeit.
    Unless their use of "counterfeit" is a US (federal or state) legal requirement in the affidavit, Rolex may struggle since the line between customised & counterfeit will be for the judge to define, which will be difficult.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy2254 View Post
    Paul Thorpe has posted a video......
    Words that inspire excited anticipation on a par with:

    Freya is just starting Music College and after dinner would like to sing you all a ballad that she’s written herself......
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 27th November 2019 at 22:49.

  44. #44
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    I wonder if their defence will center on being a watch customiser?

    Their website claims that they only use original parts (new and/or old) and that the dials are original but stripped and repainted. It also looks like they strip the day/date wheels and hands and repaint them too.

    They do offer a 2 year warranty and offer servicing for any of their Rolex watches for 600, again using new/old original parts.

    Rolex though have stated that they found non original parts when they inspected a watch.

    For me faking the text on the dials after repainting them might well be their downfall?

  45. #45
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    crystals (i.e., the cover located between the dial and the hands)
    Sounds to me like the writer is just a fashion writer who knows nothing about watches and has had something explained to them but they didn't quite get it. Dimwit.

  46. #46
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    A few years back, Project X Rolex watches was a high-rolling name. Including pics of Daniel Craig wearing a Project Rolex. Surely, Rolex has an opinion about that as well. And when you google 'Rolex custom watch', there are plenty of other examples of modified Rolex watches. Some websites boasting celebs' names and wrist shots.

    Rolex legal department has to hire new lawyers to get a grip on all!

    In the article above, there's one interesting Rolex argument. The recognition that Rolex owners see that the value of the watch will rise overtime, making it a sound investment. Mixed with Rolex' ultra-strong marketing strategy, it's sure that there's no chance of steel subs flooding the market again... They will make sure that there's always a 'demand'.

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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Words that inspire excited anticipation on a par with:

    Freya is just starting Music College and after dinner would like to sing you all a ballad that she’s written herself......
    Fair point. I just thought I'd mention it & summarise the argument he made. I hold no brief for Paul Thorpe but I thought the argument he advanced was interesting & might be worth sharing.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Words that inspire excited anticipation on a par with:

    Freya is just starting Music College and after dinner would like to sing you all a ballad that she’s written herself......
    <snort>

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Get a life. Get a Steinhart or something.

    That could be Steinhart’s new slogan!

  50. #50
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    laCalifornienne responds to Rolex suit
    https://www.rescapement.com/blog/lac...ir-use-defense

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