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Thread: Smiths were the only watches worn on the summit of Everest in '53. The proof.

  1. #151
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    Thanks for this thread and more importantly the research. Great read.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by swanbourne View Post
    Amazing work, the only problem is, I've just spent 2 hours reading through it ;-)

    Eddie
    No surprise?

    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  3. #153
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    Question National Geographic wants the money...but also knows facts

    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Ironically, it was with the US National Geographic Ascent in 1963 that Rolex finally got to the summit!
    I saw that advert as well. You need to read between the lines to see that they did NOT have the watch AT the top.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by davidzet View Post
    National Geographic wants the money...but also knows facts
    Like Rolex . . . .

  5. #155
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    In the link below... you want the second part, titled:

    1952 Rolex Oyster Perpetual – the Everest connection

    Professional Diver Nigel Band And The Unusual Rolex Sea-Dweller And Oyster Perpetual Models That Plumbed The Depths And Scaled The Heights
    https://quillandpad.com/2020/11/25/p...d-the-heights/

    Over the years the Everest team continued to hold regular five-yearly reunions to celebrate the event, sometimes at Pen-Y-Grwyd in Wales, where they had trained for the expedition, so Nigel Band grew up surrounded by family friends and acquaintances who were household names at the time.

    On one occasion he took Tenzing Norgay’s wife into London to choose cassettes of “the latest pop music” for her family back home – Status Quo and Queen he remembers. He also recalls his mother turning up to collect him from boarding school one half-term “in a large blue Citroen estate, with Ed Hillary in the passenger seat.” This earned him considerable kudos with his incredulous classmates, but on the way home, “Ed offered to drive and promptly crashed the car while negotiating the slip road onto the M4 motorway.”

    From these meetings he recalls Jan Morris (Times reporter on the 1953 expedition who very recently passed away, and James Morris at the time) giving a talk, leaning on the lectern, and intriguingly twirling her spectacles with one hand as she spoke, in stark contrast to the other members’ more formal presentations. And during a talk by Sir Edmund Hillary, one stalwart leaning over to another member and muttering “of course it wasn’t a Rolex he was wearing at the top, it was a Smiths . . . ”.

    But that’s a topic for another article.

    George Band rations Royal Geographical Society



    This looks like a Rollie to me.
    "Owning one is almost as satisfying as making one." ~ Rolex 1973

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas View Post

    This looks like a Rollie to me.
    Agreed. Also I think the strap (especially the stitching) doesn't look like the one on Sir Ed's "Summit Smiths" on display in the musuem but does resemble that on the Rolexes (irrc).

    Of course, this assumes that the straps haven't been changed! Pretty certain Hillary's hasn't been.

  7. #157
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    Yes, Band wore a Rolex 6098 on Everest in '53. ... And actually reading the article demonstrates that better than I ever could. Mind you, the bit about two tranches of Rolex is not bourne out by the RGS archives...

    But I'm now absolutely certain that Mallory made it to the summit.
    Last edited by M4tt; 26th November 2020 at 17:34.

  8. #158
    Oddly, if you go to the Rolex Passion Report website you'll see that Philipp Stahl's most recents posts are about Rolex & Everest.

    (Both are actually old posts "bumped" up to the top, seemingly unedited).

    Unsurprisingly neither posts mention the fact that Rolex conceded to Smiths in that letter (a copy of which I emailed to Stahl, so I know he has the information!)

    Also disappointingly neither article has been revised to include the news of Jan Morris' death.

    Stahl leaves his earlier claim unmodified -- "it will always remain a mystery if Rolex was literally on the summit" -- despite new facts emerging.

    It's not a mystery. They weren't. At least not for another decade.

    Well, that's what you get from an unashamedly biased blog but it's now a matter of record that Smiths were first to the top; Stahl knows it and it is deceitful of him to re-post old material without emending it.

    A crime of "passion", I suppose.

  9. #159
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    Change comes slowly, but it's good to see the wind slowly turning.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Change comes slowly, but it's good to see the wind slowly turning.
    That'll be the manual wind of the Smiths? The Rolex were automatics . . . .

  11. #161
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    ....

    A crime of "passion", I suppose.
    With too much passion and not enough compassion the truth is hard to bear. Hehe.
    Last edited by abraxas; 27th November 2020 at 12:20.
    "Owning one is almost as satisfying as making one." ~ Rolex 1973

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas View Post
    With too much passion and not enough compassion the truth is hard to bear. Hehe.
    Actually, thinking about it I can only conclude it’s a good sign that old posts are being bumped up to the top unedited: any changes or new articles would have to reflect the latest information. So it’s a sign of him conceding to the recent research. It’ll be interesting to see if he puts up anything else on this subject or if the best he can do it repeat outdated and superseded findings.

    Smiths did it. Rolex said as much and are now very careful in their advertising. You can bet that had they had a watch on the summit in ‘53 they’d have made as much of it as Omega did with the moon!

  13. #163
    From Rolex's official Instagram account



    If they'd been on the summit in '53 we'd never have heard the end of it, think Omega and the Moon only a decade and a half earlier.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Apple of watch industry.

  15. #165
    One thing has been bugging me and it's this:

    Stahl writes:

    "Tenzings wife back then advised him not to take his Rolex to this 1953 Expedition. So again, after Lambert convinced Tenzing to join the British, he now had to make sure Tenzing was wearing a Rolex. I asked her why her husband was so pertinent… She explained to me that Raymond was in full believe Rolex, as genevan based, deserved it to be worn on top of a succesful ascent!
    In honor of his friendship Tenzing decided to please Lambert, and did not take the “schmutz” she continued!
    At first I thought, what’s a “schmutz”, so I asked her…she said her husband always said it like this to her. As we where talking german, the coin dropped and from “schmut”(German for dirty;)I explained her it was Smith, lol! 🙂"

    Source: http://rolexpassionreport.com/919/th...-norgay-rolex/

    See also post #30 here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...23059-s20.html

    This says that Tenzing had a "Smith" (sic) before the 1953 Expedition. He might well have had a Rolex from the Lambert's 1952 attempt, but Smiths had never sponsored or equipped an Everest team before they gifted the 13 watches (and 4 travel alarms clocks!) to the Hunt expedition.

    13 wristwatches. Remember that number. Because there were 13 members of the Hunt party (Hunt, Evans, Band, Bourdillon, Gregory, Noyce, Pugh, Stobart, Ward, Westmacott, Wylie, Hillary, Lowe) plus two Sherpas (Sherpa Annullu and Tenzing) who seem to count in the official, i.e. wikipedia, tally .

    I reckon that is one Smiths watch per man, given in early 1953 or at a push late '52.

    So how Stahl reckons Tenzing had one before he joined the party is a mystery to me. Unless one of the 13 gave or lent him theirs during the expedition he never had one at all.

  16. #166
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    So how Stahl reckons Tenzing had one before he joined the party is a mystery to me. Unless one of the 13 gave or lent him theirs during the expedition he never had one at all.
    Stahl is an absolute fruitcake and quite the gammon-infused snowflake to boot. He is as mad as he is rich and has taken on the role of unofficial Rolex oracle in the hope the lies he tells (and believes) become true.

    Smart guy with a serious amount of knowledge but he does get carried away and throws an entire Toys R Us out of his pram if ever questioned.

  17. #167
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    From Rolex's official Instagram account



    If they'd been on the summit in '53 we'd never have heard the end of it, think Omega and the Moon only a decade and a half earlier.
    The very wording of that post is a clear indication that they have no evidence to support any claim that they were on the summit in 1953.

    Clever wording though clearly implying without actually saying.

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post

    Smart guy with a serious amount of knowledge but he does get carried away and throws an entire Toys R Us out of his pram if ever questioned.
    I can testify to that. I sent him a very polite email and got a rude one back.

    Maybe he's not getting laid? Being Dutch I think he should roll a fat joint and chill out.

    (I'm speaking in a personal capacity. My views may not reflect the official position of the Church of England.)

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    The very wording of that post is a clear indication that they have no evidence to support any claim that they were on the summit in 1953.

    Clever wording though clearly implying without actually saying.
    Yes - I had to read that a few times to see what it was actually saying. Which, as it turned out, is nothing at all.


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  20. #170
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    Thought this might be of interest.

    Found this book in Harrods London, but at £700 it stayed there!








  21. #171
    £700 for a book that looks secondhand (unless that is fake patina?)

    Re the final pic: it wasn't "Sir Edmund Hillary's successful expedition" (1. he wasn't "Sir" then and 2. it was John Hunt's expedition -- and he wasn't a knighted at that point either.)

    Also, the watches issued to the expedition were not prototype Explorers.

    Still, at least they don't say a Rolex made it to the summit . . . .

  22. #172
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    ...in the hope the lies he tells (and believes) become true.
    "By repetition, each lie becomes an irreversible fact upon which other lies are constructed."

    John Le Carré.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    £700 for a book that looks secondhand (unless that is fake patina?)
    To be fair it is marked as the display copy (top right corner on the first pic). If you buy it you get a nice new one in a box, bargain

  24. #174
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Mythbusting: 3 Persistent Patek Philippe And Rolex Myths Debunked (23. 1. 2021)
    https://quillandpad.com/2021/01/23/m...yths-debunked/

    About a 3rd of the way down the page...

    "Myth 3 (also featuring the illustrious coronet): Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were wearing Rolex watches when they reached the peak of Mount Everest in 1953"

    Also check, in the comments below the article...

    James Dowling says:
    January 24, 2021 at 4:29 pm

    I have definitive proof about Tenzing Norway’s watch on Everest. Feel free to drop me a note
    "Owning one is almost as satisfying as making one." ~ Rolex 1973

  25. #175
    Thanks and a nice interesting balanced read though it travels much the same path as the OP.

  26. #176
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    As an agnostic, this is still fascinating, I am always amazed by the amount of material that can still unearthed about an event that has been researched so often. Hats off tp the OP, the enthusiasm is obvious.

  27. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas View Post
    Mythbusting: 3 Persistent Patek Philippe And Rolex Myths Debunked (23. 1. 2021)
    https://quillandpad.com/2021/01/23/m...yths-debunked/

    About a 3rd of the way down the page...

    "Myth 3 (also featuring the illustrious coronet): Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were wearing Rolex watches when they reached the peak of Mount Everest in 1953"

    Also check, in the comments below the article...
    "Everything that Rolex subsequently produces in terms of advertising and communications is hamstrung by the fact that although 13 Oyster Perpetuals did go up Everest on that expedition, including two on the wrists of Charles Evans and Tom Bourdillon, who made the first attempt, turning back just 70 meters from the peak due to oxygen problems, none of them made it to the top."

    I think that where the photos show a team member wearing two watches the obvious implication is that they were wearing a Rolex and Smiths -- each climber was issued with both, after all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ooh a naughty reply!

    "Someone needs to tell Philipp Stahl at Rolex Passion Report about the letters in the BHI. (There are, after all more letters in “BHI” than in “BS”.)"

    Well I never!


    OK, OK, I did.

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas View Post
    Mythbusting: 3 Persistent Patek Philippe And Rolex Myths Debunked (23. 1. 2021)
    https://quillandpad.com/2021/01/23/m...yths-debunked/

    About a 3rd of the way down the page...

    "Myth 3 (also featuring the illustrious coronet): Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were wearing Rolex watches when they reached the peak of Mount Everest in 1953"

    Also check, in the comments below the article...

    His definitive proof is slightly less definitive than one might expect:

    https://forums.timezone.com/index.ph...=1487153&rid=0



    Quote Originally Posted by Dowling
    I can fill in the story behind that image, it is, in fact the Rolex Bubbleback which Tenzing Sherpa Norgay wore on that momentous climb. And I know this because the watch is currently in the Rolex museum & I have handled the watch whilst on a visit there.

    He gave the watch to the company when he visited there about 5 years after the climb, in many ways the watch came home because it originally belonged to the one of the leaders of the 1952 Everest expedition, Raymond Lambert. On this expedition, Lambert & Tenzing reached closer to the summit than any previous expedition & it is generally accepted that without the efforts of the Swiss expedition & Tenzing, the 1953 British Commonwealth expedition would have failed.

    When Lambert & Tenzing returned to base camp, he gave Tenzing his Rolex, which had been given to him by the company before he set out.

    In 2002, 50 years after the original climb, Lambert's son, Yves and Tenzings grandson Tashi returned to the mountain, once again sponsored by Rolex, amongst others. On the 16th of May, he and Yves reached the summit.

    I will be at the Rolex Geneva HQ once again tomorrow & will try to take pics of the piece, if they will let me.
    Sadly, he clearly hasn't been through the RGS pictures. If he had, he'd not be making the claim he is.

  29. #179
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    Mr. Dowling didn't actually say in the comments section that it was a Rolex, he may have changed his mind since his 2010 post on Timezone.
    I do hope he replies to Matt's comment with some actual,definitive proof, and not the bumf in his old post...

  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Mr. Dowling didn't actually say in the comments section that it was a Rolex, he may have changed his mind since his 2010 post on Timezone.
    I do hope he replies to Matt's comment with some actual,definitive proof, and not the bumf in his old post...
    Surprisingly, he's silent.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Thanks and a nice interesting balanced read though it travels much the same path as the OP.
    That's what tends to happen when you shamelessly copy someone else's work...

  32. #182
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    Wow just read this whole thread from start to the present, I’ll not say finish.
    Well done M4tt splendid research and write up.
    I’ve been off here for two years or more.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  33. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    That's what tends to happen when you shamelessly copy someone else's work...
    Haha!

  34. #184
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    Big business marketing is almost as full of smoke and mirrors as government policy.


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  35. #185
    "Hoewel het altijd een vraag zal blijven of Rolex ook letterlijk op de top was, waren de Oyster Perpetual modellen onderdeel van basisuitrusting destijds; dat staat vast."

    ("Although it will always remain a question whether Rolex was literally on top, the Oyster Perpetual models were part of basic equipment at the time; that's for sure.")

    http://rolexpassionreport.com/5722/t...nzing-edition/

    Niet "altijd". Wij hebben het antwoord.

    (Not always. We have the answer.)
    Last edited by Rev-O; 2nd August 2021 at 17:55.

  36. #186
    A thought occurred to me while reading Hillary's account of reaching the summit and his use of the word "carried" ("I carried your watch") rather than the more common "wore" or even "took".

    Here's the chapter he wrote in Hunt's book:

    "I had carried [sic] my camera, loaded with colour film, inside my shirt to keep it warm, so I now produced it and got Tenzing to pose on top for me, waving his axe on which was string of flags -- United Nations, British, Nepalese and Indian [....] I had a lot of difficulty in holding the camera steady in my clumsy gloves."

    I wonder if he "carried" the watch in a shirt or pocket or even attached to the camera. This would keep it warm and be more accessible than looking under thick gloves or mittens.

    P.S. even if Norgay was wearing a Rolex we know that Hillary was first on to the summit.

    How? Because in his 1955 autobiography ('Tiger of the Snows') Norgay said so:

    "A little below the summit Hillary and I stopped. We looked up. Then we went on. The rope that joined us was thirty feet long, but I held most of it in loops in my hand, there was only six feet between us. I was not thinking of “first” and “second”. I did not say to myself, “There is a golden apple up there. I will push Hillary aside and run for it.” We went on slowly, steadily. And then we were there. Hillary stepped on top first. And I stepped up after him.”

    And this:

    "In an interview with Scotland on Sunday for the 50th anniversary in 2003, Hillary explained what had happened: “We set off at 6.30am, first light, me in the lead, Tenzing behind on a tight rope. We never discussed who would be first up. It really did not matter to me, as the entire expedition was very much a team affair, but I suspect Tenzing was quite deferential to what he saw as the Sahib. So I got to the top first, with him just 10ft or so behind.”

    Lots have watches have been to the top but Smiths was the first. Maybe Rolex was second by a few seconds. Maybe not. But Smiths was first.

  37. #187
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    The "Rolex on Everest" bandwagon continues in yesterday's (10 April 2021) Telegraph newspaper, which has a "Telegraph Time" advertorial:

    Rolex dubbed the line 'Explorer' because the original is based on the timepieces supplied to the team ascending Everest in 1953. Rolex has always associated itself with those who achieve feats of derring-do and the expedition led by Col. John Hunt, which included Tenzing Norgay and Sir Edmund Hillary, who reached the summit on 29 May 1953, proved that the Rolex Oyster could survive one of the world's toughest challenges.
    This piece pointedly does not claim that Rolexes were the first watches on the summit of Everest, or even that anyone on the expedition was actually wearing Rolexes, although the implication is strong.

  38. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatters View Post
    The "Rolex on Everest" bandwagon continues in yesterday's (10 April 2021) Telegraph newspaper, which has a "Telegraph Time" advertorial:

    This piece pointedly does not claim that Rolexes were the first watches on the summit of Everest, or even that anyone on the expedition was actually wearing Rolexes, although the implication is strong.
    Seems to me it was a fair quote and avoided any untruths. Whomever wrote it must have done some reading.

  39. #189
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    A nice article by a good friend that links Smiths with the first ascent of Everest. He’s no Smiths fan (or expert) by any means so it’s a great indication this is now the mainstream view.

    https://www.thewristorian.com/post/w...-s-dakar-rally
    Last edited by HookedSeven; 23rd April 2021 at 18:45.

  40. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    Seems to me it was a fair quote and avoided any untruths. Whomever wrote it must have done some reading.
    Without saying that Rolex didn't get to the summit and/or that Smiths did the implication is left open . . . .

    After all, Rolex were on Everest the year before as well.

  41. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    A nice article by a good friend that link Smiths with the Everest. He’s no Smiths fan (or expert) by any means so it’s a great indication this is now the mainstream view.

    https://www.thewristorian.com/post/w...-s-dakar-rally
    "Some watches, like the Omega Speedmaster and Seiko “Pogue” have ventured into zero-g territory, while the Rolex Submariner and the Doxa SUB300 handled benthic business in the ocean depths. Heuers and Daytonas dominated racetracks. Explorer IIs went spelunking past stalactites and the humble Smiths conquered Everest. Each of these timepieces is now eternally tied to the history-making event in which it participated, and rightfully so."

    Nice turn of phrase there.

  42. #192
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Without saying that Rolex didn't get to the summit and/or that Smiths did the implication is left open . . . .

    After all, Rolex were on Everest the year before as well.
    Nevertheless, the statement they made was true. I am assuming this was Rolex advertising, so I would have no expectation of them to proactively advertise a different brand.

  43. #193
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    Nevertheless, the statement they made was true. I am assuming this was Rolex advertising, so I would have no expectation of them to proactively advertise a different brand.
    Rolex have spent nearly sixty years advertising the fact that their watches were used on the 1953 attempt without actually saying that their watches were the first on the summit.

    If they had no intention to let people believe that their watches were the first on the summit, why don’t they make more of the 52 expedition?

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Rolex have spent nearly sixty years advertising the fact that their watches were used on the 1953 attempt without actually saying that their watches were the first on the summit.

    If they had no intention to let people believe that their watches were the first on the summit, why don’t they make more of the 52 expedition?
    The most likely answer is it's because nobody reached the summit in 52, so it's not a notable event of public knowledge.

  45. #195
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    The most likely answer is it's because nobody reached the summit in 52, so it's not a notable event of public knowledge.
    Rolex didn’t reach the summit in 53 either so why would that be any more of a notable event for them?

    The only reason for them advertising that they were there in 53 is to let people believe that their watches were the first to reach the summit.

  46. #196
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    I was listening to a very well-known podcast the other day, and the guests were talking about the watch that was worn on the first ascent of Everest. You can guess the rest. I had to skip that bit as it was annoying after reading this thread.

  47. #197
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    Thank you.

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  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Rolex didn’t reach the summit in 53 either so why would that be any more of a notable event for them?

    The only reason for them advertising that they were there in 53 is to let people believe that their watches were the first to reach the summit.
    We all know that. There's a 4 page thread on that. It doesn't change the accuracy of what I said.

    As for 53 vs 52, one is an important moment in human history, the other is not.

  49. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaOmega View Post
    I was listening to a very well-known podcast the other day, and the guests were talking about the watch that was worn on the first ascent of Everest. You can guess the rest. I had to skip that bit as it was annoying after reading this thread.
    Do tell! Was it Hodinkee?

  50. #200

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