Reply With QuoteIs that The Joe Rogan Experience? Who was he interviewing?Originally Posted by AlphaOmega
Sorry, missed this!
It was the JRE podcast. Some of the interviews have upwards of 20m views so I found myself disagreeing loudly with my Bluetooth speaker.
Sorry, missed this!
It was the JRE podcast. Some of the interviews have upwards of 20m views so I found myself disagreeing loudly with my Bluetooth speaker.
Is that The Joe Rogan Experience? Who was he interviewing?Sorry, missed this!
It was the JRE podcast. Some of the interviews have upwards of 20m views so I found myself disagreeing loudly with my Bluetooth speaker.
Just wanted to say thank you to M4tt and others who have posted on this thread. I found it very interesting. I bought a PRS-25 recently as a 70th birthday present for my Dad and used this thread to put together some info on the Smiths/Rolex story that inspired it. He was thrilled with the present and enjoyed reading some of the history of the brands.
One of the greatest threads ever on tz-uk
And now, a Smiths meet-up is in the offing!
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...94#post5987694
These are fairly recent. The second one is gold. I love the reference to "English Air".
A watch journey. Smiths and Everest content, but not *that* Smiths.
https://forums.timezone.com/index.ph...=0#msg_7663375
Horological Journal: 1953 Rolex, Smiths, Mt. Everest secret letters revealed...
https://forums.timezone.com/index.ph...89#msg_7712966
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Thanks for posting that; seems determinative…
I'm personally certain that Mallory made the summit and have been gently writing and researching the evidence to support that claim for a couple of years now.
At the heart of the issue is the question of how it could be so easy to get up and yet so hard to return. I think there is a wealth of circumstantial, scientific and documentary evidence to show that Mallory and Irvine were infinitely better prepared and suited to summit than Hillary, and in fact anyone else until Messner, and made very fast progress up the mountain after a later than intended start. Both Hillary and Norgay both avoided a medical that they would have failed.
However, I have now located a crucial piece of equipment believed to have been lost on Everest that is in fact sat in a college library, but misidentified. The provenance is secure and, combined with the weather conditions on Everest as the climb progressed, it suggests a nightmare dilemma faced on the summit, explains the strange pattern of damage on Mallory's watch, which I examined at the RGS, and suggests a compelling reason for the failure to descend safely.
When Irving's body is finally recovered. I fully expect the camera to be found and prove that Everest was climbed in '24, quite possibly without oxygen for the final pitch.
Last edited by M4tt; 5th December 2022 at 09:45.
Rolex and Smiths were both suppliers to the expedition and both firms are mentioned in the appendix to Hunt's book. On a practical note, one offered a manual wind and the other an automatic watch. To paraphrase Rolex's famous advertising tagline, if you were climbing Everest tomorrow would you prefer a manual winding or an automatic wristwatch?
You could ask the same question about travelling to the moon and we know what NASA chose. Winding a watch once a day whilst sheltered from the elements is no big deal.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Would an automatic wind well w/o gravity?
Of course.
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
Yes. because it's about momentum, not gravity. As for Everest, Hunt's expedition was run on a military basis, with check lists including things like winding and synchronising watches. Remember that automatics were a novelty and not entirely trusted, and quite rightly so. As such, an auto was just one more thing to fail and given the ice pick action, would have been getting a fair bit of stress. The most inconvenient thing would be the screw down crown.
Ain't that the truth.
Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!
Yup. Exhibit A:
Threads are prone to getting worn, stripped etc.
Except this one. Despite being solid gold.
Plenty of serious space watches with automatic movements, Fortis for example with soyouz or even Sinn, Seiko with the pogue etc…
Okay all, that’s me put right everyone!
This, sounds very interesting indeed and worthy of its own thread, and, may I suggest, some form of publication.
Very interesting and exciting! I very much look forward to reading your findings at some point.
Actually, it’s daft to post this. Sorry. More eventually.
Last edited by M4tt; 5th December 2022 at 21:01.
Fantastic post.
I don't think it's daft. I for one I am glad that you are still on the case. Mallory's is one of my favourite watch stories. A tad macabre but fascinating nevertheless. I hope to get some answer before we pop our clogs.
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Strangely, I don't appear to have responded to this post! Apologies for that - fantastic ongoing work from M4tt, Rev-O and many, many others.
#teamwatchnerd
No, thank you sir.
Also a bump for this thread -- as if it needed it
And that letter in full:
Letter from Sir Edmund Hillary in The Horological Journal, November 1953
As Mr R. A. Winter [Rolex] is not quite sure if Sir Edmund Hillary received his Rolex, and if Mr E. Carey demands to know the true facts about the Everest watches, the obvious solution seem to be to ask Sir Edmund himself, and I did so last weekend. He assures me that he wore one watch only, his Smiths, during the last stages of the climb but, at the same time, he spoke very highly of the Rolex, and the fact that it remained behind in the comparative safety of the Base Camp was no reflection on the watch, but simply a common-sense precaution to keep one in reserve, and to avoid any possible chance of getting both smashed at the same time. The precaution was against accidental damage, and there seems to have been no fear that any of the watches would fail. As this confidence was fully justified, both makers are to be congratulated.
Tensing carried a single watch, his own, of unrecorded make, but he did not do any of the timekeeping, or calculations for consumption of oxygen — called by the Sherpas "English Air”.
The pictures used by Messrs. Smiths in the September advertisement is of Messrs. Bourdillon and Evans, exhausted on their return from the South Summit, but I feel sure, from a chance remark, the encircled watch is also a Smiths.
Sir Edmund is taking back a London watch, made by Jno. Fladgate, in 1766, but it is most unlikely that he will take it on his next expedition; much as I admire the verge escapement, I felt obliged to warn him against using it to time his oxygen consumption, as I have a sneaking feeling that it might not be completely accurate at -40 deg. C. !
I hope that this is the information required, and that everyone will feel perfectly satisfied but, if any makers of very expensive watches would like to start a new controversy, by having their products carried to the top of Inkpen Beacon (c. 902 ft.), they have only to send them to yours very truly,
E. HILLARY
“The Old Cottage”
Newtown
Newbury
Last edited by Rev-O; 9th January 2023 at 19:35.
This year?
It's not a Smiths
Perezcope does Everest
https://www.instagram.com/p/CsRA9u4R9IQ/?hl=en
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
It could be anything but… Omega 6b would be my guess on bonklip.
He has just replied to my query on there, apparently an obscure unconsidered Swiss brand. More to follow, surely
I go with a 1950's West End Watch Co Keepsake Prima on bonklip
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/West-End-...edirect=mobile
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
I think West End too.
Not sure that case / crown design was around in '53. I thought that was a later 60s/70s model.
However, if it is a WEW, it's in good company - the 1960 Chinese Mount Everest expedition wore WEWs...
I'm a little surprised that the pictures this conclusion is apparently based upon are described as 'never before seen' because this isn't even the first time they have been seen in this thread, let alone anywhere else. So that's not a great start.
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...=1#post5251965.
The bracelet is from a West End in my opinion, but the cases that West End used at that point were actually made by Borgel, or more precisely Taubert by 1953. West End subsequently ripped off and enlarged the Taubert design, as in the Keepsake featured above, but that's a sixties watch. Prior to that, I'm pretty sure that the West End models using that case were either too small or entirely the wrong shape.
I don't instagram, so I can't see if there's any other evidence, but for convenience - here's how the watch Hillary wore looked:
Note that while the lug goes up to the bezel, the way it is angled can give the impression, in shade, that it joins much lower. If you look at my 'smoking gun' image in the linked post from this thread, which you really will not find anywhere else, and compare it with my picture of Hillary's watch from the Science Museum, I still think the case is compelling.
Last edited by M4tt; 16th May 2023 at 16:02.
Possibly. I'm busy with other stuff.
Given that his reply saying it was Swiss and unconsidered was made after a hundred suggestions of West End, i think it unlikely.
His answer suggested that he has found a clear and identifiable photo, which he will publish in due course.
I guess the Insta is a teaser for his article.
And yes, he has of course read this thread.
I'm pretty sure that I have looked through every single photograph and film in the RGS, both colour and black and white, most of which are still not digitised, and so I'd be slightly surprised if he has unless there are privately held sources. Personally, the watch I see in the images, looks pretty clear in the best pictures and in the less clear could be Lord Lucan…
It’s certainly the case that Borgel and Taubert cases were popular with earlier climbers. However they were used by rather a lot of manufactures, from Patek to Doxa. The strongest case for West End is their issue, and popularity with the Indian army. There is a CSI watch which is a West End / Longines crossover in a similar case to the Patek 565 which I considered as it has the larger 33m Borgel case, and looks about right, but the way the lugs shade on the Smiths seems pretty conclusive to me.
Either was, I’d be delighted to be conclusively proved wrong by a killer source as that puts the issue to bed and would be one more fact to play with. However, I’m not sure I will be.
Last edited by M4tt; 17th May 2023 at 20:36.
The Omega fans (of whom I’m one) are now informed of The Truth!
https://omegaforums.net/threads/what...-everest.29349
I fear the killer source will be Philipp Stahl’s unverified report of an unrecorded private conversation with Tenzing’s son. In which case expect the answer to be a Rolex.
(Stahl’s “Rolex Passion Report” replied to Perezcope on that thread but I can’t read it as he’s blocked me.)
The thing is that Tenzing did have a range of watches and certainly enjoyed them. So I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a few watches to be found. However, on Everest?
I have reasons to think Stahl has behaved poorly in the past and some of what he says is clearly false, but it isn’t clear to me if he is in error, misled or fibbing. He does like Rolex though…
Last edited by M4tt; 23rd May 2023 at 18:44.
Did anything come of this? I assume that something got published somewhere, but I can't find it and I'm curious to know.
Nothing yet. We know it's not a Rolex and it was the second watch to the summit after Hillary's Smiths.
After that, who cares? If Perezcope actually knows then the "big reveal" will be an old, obscure and obsolete Swiss make -- so possibly something like a Cyma, Vertex, Font or Reconvilier. But 1.) that's not a very big reveal and 2.) how's he gonna prove it?
It's a footnote to a footnote, at best. The main thing is that he and his legion of followers all know about the Smiths -- all publicity is good publicity etc.
I can see precisely why he'd think it was one of the CSI Longines, with the Borgel case in the early versions and the copy of a Borgel in the later ones, the lugs are low down in the case and that's how the best images of Norgay look. However, having spent quite a while examining all the possible suspects I still think that the Smiths is the best candidate. Why I think that can be summed up in two images. One is Norgay's on Everest and the other is Hillary's watch in the British Museum. Initially, and without comparing, it looks like the lugs join the case far too low of a Dennison Aquatite case, but does look just like a particular Borgel. However, if you carefully compare the two images, it seems to me that the way the lug is faceted, which is clear in Hillary's, would lead, in Tenzing's image, to both the impression of the lug joining low on the case, and the dark area directly above the lug (as it is in shadow while Hillary's isn't).
But don't forget Mallory's Borgel and Irvine's Ingersol, the first and second on the summit. Or indeed Odell's Elgin and Verner that placed the duo in the right place at the right time! ;-)
Last edited by M4tt; 31st May 2023 at 11:24.
I don't see drilled lug holes on Tenzing's watch though.
True, but I can barely see the crown either!
From whom did Tenzing borrow his Smiths? Rolex didn't "issue" any of their watches to anyone outside of the core (British and NZ) team, and I haven't seen anything from Smiths that would suggest that they did, either. It's possible he had his own, but it's not a given. Surely Smiths would have mentioned it, at some point?
My research suggests that Tenzing had at least two watches - one Rolex given to him by Rolex *after* the event, and another "given ... in Calcutta by the West Bengal Pradesh Congress Committee." Officially, that Committee wasn't founded until 1966, so it probably refers to the Bengal Provincial Congress Committee, but it's odd that a contemporaneous report would get the names "wrong".
He also told a reporter in Kathmandu that "among his treasured mementos were two wrist watches, one given to him by Gen CG Bruce and another that was`Tenzing's own special wrist-watch made for high altitude climbing'". However, Bruce didn't return to Everest after the 1924 Expedition, so Tenzing must have got it from Bruce somewhere else (Punjab?). As for the other watch, this might be the Rolex gifted to him after the Swiss 1952 Expedition.
It's all quite hard to unpick.
Last edited by Broussard; 2nd June 2023 at 10:47. Reason: Additional information
It is. Hillary himself didn't seem to know but had it been a Smiths OR a Rolex you can bet that they'd have been all over it. I think Tenzing did own a gold datejust at this point (gifted after his part in the previous year's unsuccessful Swiss attempt) but this steel / chrome watch on a Bonklip looks set to remain a mystery. I also can't see anyone swapping out the leather strap on the "official" watches (Rolex / Smiths) for a ladder bracelet during the expedition so I'm assuming it's his own watch. But who cares? 1.) it was the second watch on Everest and 2.) it almost certainly wasn't a Rolex. Smiths' crown is secure. Meanwhile Rolex continue to associate themselves with the first ascent in ways that encourage people to draw the wrong conclusion. One can only conclude that it meant a lot to them and it still smarts that some provincial "ordinary wind wristwatch reached the summit with Sir Edmund Hillary" (Dickie Winter, Director, Rolex).
I care. I care because they got to the top together; as a pair. It's important to recognise this. This isn't just about British post-colonialism and soft power in the 50s. This was a heroic effort by 370 Sherpas and the British / NZ Team. Tenzing and the Sherpas matter. It also mattered to Tenzing, who appeared to enjoy wearing two watches while in London!
This. Neither Hillary nor Tenzing were getting there without the other. Regardless of the seconds between each of them summiting, theirs was a combined effort, and the achievement belongs to them both, as the tip of a very extensive assault on the mountain. By extension, just as both climbers hold the honour, so should both watches.
^^^
Because I'm sure had Rolex been there first, they totally woudn't have turned every second of advantage into marketing spin.
We did this. In the case of an early perpetual Rolex with a screw down crown, you categorically want a hand wind watch with a non screw crown.
The '53 Everest expedition was a quasi military affair done by the book. And the book says that you wind and check watches at a set time daily. In the case of the perpetual complication in a Rolex, this is a very sensible precaution as the levels of activity will go from cutting steps which will put a fair strain on a winding mechanism to doing not very much while conserving strength, during which time an inefficient winding mechanism will not keep the watch well wound and can lead to significant deviations in timekeeping. So it's common sense to wind and compare watches daily, at which point the screw down crown and compromised water resistance when open, is a liability.
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