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Thread: Under valued "sleeper" watches.

  1. #1
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Under valued "sleeper" watches.

    Lots of talk about watches going up in value, but when you have a good look around there are some great sleeper watches to be had for reasonable money if you avoid the likes of Watchfinder/Chrono24.

    I think the MKII Speedmaster ST145:014 is in the dark side of the moon, these seem to struggle when coming up on SC at around £1700'ish, in yet it has the same 861 calibre as the Speedmaster Professional from the era and original dial/hands will have a lovely patina. Apparently it was destined to take over the Speedy pro at NASA but the testing schedule was too tight so they stuck with the pro, its a big watch with wrist presence that should suit today's buyers but it struggles.

    What watches are under the radar to you?

    Last edited by murkeywaters; 13th November 2019 at 18:53.

  2. #2
    Grand Master
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    I think a few Omegas have lagged behind in terms of prices and values, particularly the late 60s and 70s models with chunky cases like the Speedy Mk II. The C cased Constellations still fetch less than more traditional models, although theyíre now doing much better. The TV dial models with integral bracelet are still priced very modestly, they were essentially a 70s contemporary fashion and it could be argued that they havenít aged well, a style that came and went over a fairly short period.

    Iím a great believer in variety in a collection and Iím more than happy to buy the less popular models if they appeal to me. I think the internet has helped encourage a Ďherd mentalityí in collectors markets, certain examples become the perceived Ďones to owní because the sages have said so, its like a snowball rolling down hill, newcomers become influenced in what they should and shouldnít like.

    I think some brands are seriously undervalued, vintage Longines and Tissot are good examples, they suffer because the current offerings are seen as being way down the pecking order.

    If traditional yellow gold ever regains the mainstream popularity it once had, the vintage gold, gold- capped and bi-metal watches will become more sought after.

    As ever, a reliable crystal ball would help!

  3. #3
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    On a similar theme I think the Flightmaster is an under rated watch
    You either love or hate the styling but when compared to similar age Speedmasters they seem a bargain
    They seem to be creeping up but not as much as other brands / models.
    A more modern Omega that seems to be a sleeper is the Seamaster 300mc
    It as designed to be a competitor to the Submariner but you donít see many about. Itís a shame as they are lovely looking, a great size and have a fantastic movement. Only time will tell what will happen to their prices in the future.
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 13th November 2019 at 14:55.

  4. #4
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    I wrote a piece for publication elsewhere about my Series 1 Zenith De Luca.
    At the end of the article I did the following comparison (although this is a few months old, the general picture is about the same).

    "A quick search of chrono24 today reveals 18 watches self-described as De Lucaís. One has the later tachymeter scale, the rest are bezel versions. The cheapest 3 (£2.8-£3.1k) are bi-metal, and all the rest are under £7k, in fact all but 3 are under £4.5k.
    Compare this to used Daytonas. Chrono24 has 5270 Rolex Daytonas on offer today, the cheapest £7.8k, and the cheapest all-steel one £10k. The cheapest steel one described as using the El Primero is £16k."


    It may be that the Daytons is over-valued, but the De Luca is definitely undervalued, especially as the production numbers were very low, and are well known.

    Dave

  5. #5
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    There are loads of great sleeper watches from now defunct or re emerging brands in the vintage market !

    Its just a matter of time ,I think, before more become popular and prices start to rise !

    But you are right , I see great value in some of the less popular models within Rolex, Heuer , Breitling, Omega and Longines.

  6. #6
    Grand Master
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    Oysterquartz.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Oysterquartz.
    Yep , Not as cheap as they were but still good value and a great moment in Rolex history !!

    When everybody else was clubbing together to take on the Japs at quartz watches . Rolex, Girard Perregaux and Jaeger ( I think ) were developing there own in house movements.

  8. #8
    Master SteveHarris's Avatar
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    I'm a bit biased but I would say Enicar watches are still very much under the radar. Lots of superb looking watches and quite a few with the venerable valjoux 72 or 726 under the hood too.

    A few examples:-
















  9. #9
    When considering chronographs in particular, the ones that spring to mind, are the cushion case cal.11/12 Autavia's like the 1163/1563/11630 etc. I know they're auto vs the Daytona's Val72 manual wind, well at least whilst they were sold alongside each other (69-85), but bearing in mind the looks, meaty size and motorsport heritage, I'm always surprised how much cheaper they are than a Daytona (or similar aged Speedy Pro). The earlier manual wind Autavia's have gone a bit crazy in recent years (though softening now, it seems), which makes the cushion cases look an even more attractive proposition IMO.

    Or if it really must be a classic 3 sub-dial chrono, with a manual wind Valjoux under the hood, then what about the 73663? Still way under the radar compared to a Daytona.

  10. #10
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveHarris View Post
    I'm a bit biased but I would say Enicar watches are still very much under the radar. Lots of superb looking watches and quite a few with the venerable valjoux 72 or 726 under the hood too.
    I often see watches you have for sale on SC and always think what great taste you have, those Enicar's are inline with the Heuer's of the day but nowhere near as well known.

  11. #11
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Some Porsche Design models (especially the 3 register Chrono24) with decent movements.

    The IWC Meca Quartz Chronos, but these can be to small for some.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  12. #12
    Master shalako's Avatar
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    Rolex 16622 Platinum Yacht-Master, been discontinued a while, prices still low comparatively speaking but sure to rise I believe.

  13. #13
    Master ed335d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Lots of talk about watches going up in value, but when you have a good look around there are some great sleeper watches to be had for reasonable money if you avoid the likes of Watchfinder/Chrono24.

    I think the MKII Speedmaster ST145:014 is in the dark side of the moon, these seem to struggle when coming up on SC at around £1700'ish, in yet it has the same 861 calibre as the Speedmaster Professional from the era and original dial/hands will have a lovely patina. Apparently it was destined to take over the Speedy pro at NASA but the testing schedule was too tight so they stuck with the pro, its a big watch with wrist presence that should suit today's buyers but it struggles.

    What watches are under the radar to you?

    Very similar, but Iíd put the 4.5 in the same category. Available for even less than the MKII.


  14. #14
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalako View Post
    Rolex 16622 Platinum Yacht-Master, been discontinued a while, prices still low comparatively speaking but sure to rise I believe.
    I agree with this and I may well buy one - a very sexy watch.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Oysterquartz.
    Agreed, wearing mine today and stunned that a Rolex which is directly derived from a Genta design (the Texan) can still be attainable, in a world where 15202STs are £38k!



    To this I'd add vintage Datejusts in general, still a very affordable watch with tons of choice. My personal favourite, the 16000 with quickset date, smooth bezel and oyster bracelet. But there really is one for everyone with so many variations and interesting dials, it's like a box of chocolates trying to choose one. When you can't even buy a modern Rolex if you wanted to, it's a wonderful anomaly that some of the best looking vintage models are so easy to pick up. Presumably because people are convinced they need to wear a diver to work with their suit.

    The Vacheron Constantin Overseas first generation is creeping up and you see fewer decent ones, but it's still great value for a big three watch, and a fraction of the price of the current (and slightly oversized, for me at least) models.



    The Seiko Skyliner is another affordable gem, if you can find a decent one - it's one logo short of being a Grand Seiko and has many of the same design cues.



    Finally, ladies watches in general. Just look at the price of the men's VC222 Jumbo (£45k to save you looking). The ladies version could be had for well under £1k until recently, though it looks like the penny may have dropped.


  16. #16
    Master sean's Avatar
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    My one selling 'regret' is my Speedy MkII. It had the most comfortable bracelet of all the watches I've owned. The design of the thing was fantastic, it had real heft but slipped under a cuff. The sunburst brushing was mesmerising. Starting and stopping the chrono was a pleasure. A wonderful watch.

    Last edited by sean; 13th November 2019 at 19:14.

  17. #17
    Master SteveHarris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    I often see watches you have for sale on SC and always think what great taste you have, those Enicar's are inline with the Heuer's of the day but nowhere near as well known.
    Very kind of you to say so

    I've got plenty more than I posted, I should do SOTC at some point. Currently have 24 Enicars in the collection!

    Steve

  18. #18
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    Really the main thing is looking for things no one else else wants. APs can be very good value as long as you dont want a Royal Oak. Seem to remember a yellow gold perpetual calendar for sale a Blowers a while back for about 10k. Seems low when you consider the price of a stainless steel RO.

    As I understand it, pre-quartz crisis Longines had some really excellent movements in them, today a 50s Longines dress watch is the price of a mid range auto Seiko with a wonky chapter ring

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    Oysterquartz.
    Iíd say: given recent changes made thats almost a certainty..! ;-)

  20. #20
    Master ed335d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveHarris View Post
    I should do SOTC at some point. Currently have 24 Enicars in the collection!

    Steve
    Yes, you should

  21. #21
    Master Caruso's Avatar
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    Zenith El Primeros in general and the Chronomaster moonphase version in particular.

  22. #22
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    Some vintage breitling models panda dial top time

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  23. #23
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    I'm always surprised at the price of omega f300 watches. OK, there is seemingly a stigma against anything battery powered, but it's an interesting movement/technology, are still going strong 50 years later, and are just overall great quality watches. Yet can be picked up for less than the price of a kickstarter microbrand.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ed335d View Post
    Yes, you should
    +1

    Not a brand that I'm too familiar with, but some great images. You should definitely do a SOTC with some additional detail about the brand and what got you into them in the first place. I do like like these dedicated collections. A chance to educate the rest of us 👍

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    I'm always surprised at the price of omega f300 watches. OK, there is seemingly a stigma against anything battery powered, but it's an interesting movement/technology, are still going strong 50 years later, and are just overall great quality watches. Yet can be picked up for less than the price of a kickstarter microbrand.
    some of them Chronometer grade as well .

  26. #26
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Sleepers are better left to sleep !

  27. #27
    I think the breitling chrono chronmatic? big 47mm cal11 seems to be a lot of watch and float around the £1700 mark.I suppose the size is a major factor

  28. #28
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo12 View Post
    some of them Chronometer grade as well .
    Mine is rated as such, but certainly does keep time as such. Just a case of a service though, and unlike a mechanical omega, the service cost is a mere fraction.

  29. #29
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    Although not the bargain it once was, in these crazy times, the Explorer II still represents a decent buy.

  30. #30
    Grand Master
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    The big problem with old quartz / electronic watches is parts availability. If the electronic bits fail the watch is dead, I would never advise anyone to spend significant money on one.

    A mechanical watch will generally keep running with worn parts if itís serviced and lubricated, it wonít run as well as it did when new but itíll run reasonably OK and thatís enough to keep most collectors happy. Mechanicals are a far better proposition despite the rising costs of servicing.

  31. #31
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    Speedy MkII is a definite sleeper. But in the end its what appeals you sleeper/non-sleeper doesnt really matter

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by owais01 View Post
    Speedy MkII is a definite sleeper. But in the end its what appeals you sleeper/non-sleeper doesnt really matter
    This, unless one is buying purely for potential return on sale at a later date, the stars really have to allign and one really needs to actually really want a "sleeper". If you really want a speedy pro, buying a m2 only delays how long it will take to get one.

  33. #33
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    Breitling Top time. Itís a watch I know nothing about, but Iíve always quite liked the style of the big square cased ones (even the gold plated versions). Granted l, realise they may not be to everyones taste, but unless I am missing something they always seem pretty reasonably priced in the terms of a vintage chrono.


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  34. #34
    Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson_smyth View Post
    This, unless one is buying purely for potential return on sale at a later date, the stars really have to allign and one really needs to actually really want a "sleeper". If you really want a speedy pro, buying a m2 only delays how long it will take to get one.
    I've got a Pro, but I always quite fancy a MkII as well - Not acted on the urge yet, though.

    M

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    The big problem with old quartz / electronic watches is parts availability. If the electronic bits fail the watch is dead, I would never advise anyone to spend significant money on one.

    A mechanical watch will generally keep running with worn parts if it’s serviced and lubricated, it won’t run as well as it did when new but it’ll run reasonably OK and that’s enough to keep most collectors happy. Mechanicals are a far better proposition despite the rising costs of servicing.
    Do you think it would be possible for a watch maker to switch worn out original quartz movements for newer generic replacements? Or would there be problems with the fitting the crowns or hands? Obviously this kind of drastic surgery wouldn't be ideal for the lover of authentic vintage watches, but it would be better than giving up on some classic Omega Megaquartz and Zeniths, among others, when the movements finally give up. Also, presumably it wouldn't be hard for the manufacturers themselves to create affordable quartz modules that fit, should they want keep them serviceable and they don't already exist - it sounds like it would take one phone call to a supplier in China to give them the measurements these days!

  36. #36
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    Under valued "sleeper" watches.

    I donít know a thing about production figures or prices, but what to think about earlier IWC aquatimers like the 3548 and earlier versions?



    I love them and I personally donít like their successors. The contemporary aquatimers donít seem to be as popular as their predecessors.
    Last edited by Windhund; 14th November 2019 at 09:57.

  37. #37
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    seamaster chronostop, sized compatible to modern day thinking with a classic movement..

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    Do you think it would be possible for a watch maker to switch worn out original quartz movements for newer generic replacements? Or would there be problems with the fitting the crowns or hands? Obviously this kind of drastic surgery wouldn't be ideal for the lover of authentic vintage watches, but it would be better than giving up on some classic Omega Megaquartz and Zeniths, among others, when the movements finally give up. Also, presumably it wouldn't be hard for the manufacturers themselves to create affordable quartz modules that fit, should they want keep them serviceable and they don't already exist - it sounds like it would take one phone call to a supplier in China to give them the measurements these days!
    It's an intriguing idea, but as you say not one that would satisfy many collectors. I'm actually a bit less pessimistic than Paul. There are quite a few people out there with a big donor parts bin and a lot of knowledge of early quartz. Moreover, with regard to good quality electro-mechanical movements, I have found they are surprisingly repairable. (Not by me, I hasten to add!)

  39. #39
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    [QUOTE=Itsguy;5247577]Agreed, wearing mine today and stunned that a Rolex which is directly derived from a Genta design (the Texan) can still be attainable, in a world where 15202STs are £38k!



    These are growing on me and are a bit different to a standard DJ. What are peopleís opinion of the DayDate Oyster quartz?

  40. #40
    Master draftsmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    The big problem with old quartz / electronic watches is parts availability. If the electronic bits fail the watch is dead, I would never advise anyone to spend significant money on one.

    A mechanical watch will generally keep running with worn parts if itís serviced and lubricated, it wonít run as well as it did when new but itíll run reasonably OK and thatís enough to keep most collectors happy. Mechanicals are a far better proposition despite the rising costs of servicing.
    I donít often disagree with you Paul.

    Maybe the circuit boards in some early and very rare quartz models would be a problem but from what I see spares availability for tuning fork watches is good and will remain so for a good few years to come, even if some of it involves cannibalising uglier/less desirable models.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    I'm always surprised at the price of omega f300 watches. OK, there is seemingly a stigma against anything battery powered, but it's an interesting movement/technology, are still going strong 50 years later, and are just overall great quality watches. Yet can be picked up for less than the price of a kickstarter microbrand.
    I completely agree. Cool piece of watch history, reliable in my experience, plenty of character, and for those that go with brands, many of the big brands used the movement. Add in the typically 70s cool designs, and everyone into watches should have one.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windhund View Post
    I donít know a thing about production figures or prices, but what to think about earlier IWC aquatimers like the 3548 and earlier versions?



    I love them and I personally donít like their successors. The contemporary aquatimers donít seem to be as popular as their predecessors.
    Agreed, these are great looking watches


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  43. #43
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    Iíve managed to convince myself the Tudor Fastrider will be the Monte Carlo of itís day in the fullness of time.

    Theyíre not perfect - but still funky, wearable and a bit different without being silly.

    I reckon will stand the test of time.




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  44. #44
    The Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra always surprises me that they aren't more sort after. The 8500 and subsequent movements are great, the dial is legible and the blue ones especially are stunning. A "Bond" watch to boot

  45. #45
    tudor big block compared to the daytona

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by draftsmann View Post
    Maybe the circuit boards in some early and very rare quartz models would be a problem but from what I see spares availability for tuning fork watches is good and will remain so for a good few years to come, even if some of it involves cannibalising uglier/less desirable models.
    Yeah, I was going to say f300 as well. I'm continually surprised at how little, relatively speaking, my SpeedSonic cost. From chatting with Paul at Electric Watches when I got it serviced, there is (a) no problem with parts availability in general and (b) these are exceptionally robust movements. The only issue that tends to affect them is the date wheels can get stripped very easily if people adjust the date between 9pm and 3am, but those are very easy to source (plus, don't do that!).

    I know there's an issue with one of the gear wheels in the Accutron movements that can no longer be made, because the Bulova tooling doesn't exist anymore and no one else was ever capable of manufacturing them. I'm not sure if the f300 has the same part, but as you mention there are still a lot of potential donor watches around to keep the good ones alive for years to come.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by benwisback View Post
    Iíve managed to convince myself the Tudor Fastrider will be the Monte Carlo of itís day in the fullness of time.

    Theyíre not perfect - but still funky, wearable and a bit different without being silly.

    I reckon will stand the test of time.




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    Lucky man
    Its one watch i really want


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  48. #48
    El Primeros definitely.

    Vintage Smiths with quality English-made movements are undervalued at the moment. And Smiths W10s.

    I often try to work out what I'll be kicking myself in ten years for not buying now.

  49. #49
    Not sure if its under valued or a sleeper watch but the Seiko SPB083J1 “Great Blue Hole" which I recently purchased seems to punch above its price point and works great on a one piece nato.

    I am not sure if its a keeper as I have realised 3 hander non diver watches are my preference although for the moment I am enjoying it!



    Last edited by boring_sandwich; 15th November 2019 at 17:42.

  50. #50
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    Under valued "sleeper" watches.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter2704 View Post
    tudor big block compared to the daytona
    These have doubled in price over the last few years. Not bad.


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    Last edited by benwisback; 15th November 2019 at 20:29.

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