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Thread: How would you explain the difference to a lay-person!?

  1. #1
    Master mr noble's Avatar
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    How would you explain the difference to a lay-person!?

    Having spent the last month enjoying a Parnis Power Reserve on the odd day at work, I had to take the picture below before closing the safe.

    How would you explain to a lay-person that the complicated one with a date, power reserve indicator, open heart dial and display caseback is worth £30, but the other one that just has a stopwatch, is worth £30,000?

    Discuss....



    Last edited by mr noble; 11th November 2019 at 12:50.

  2. #2
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    You are basically paying for a name...

  3. #3
    The most basic approach would be to show them what both are selling for from a vareity of sellers.

    I'd also discuss the history of both companies - Parnis nick other people's designs and put their name on them, no?

    Then if I had done some homework, discuss the really quite challenging aspect of making an accurate 12hr chronograph, as opposed to something that shows how wound the mainspring is (PR) and something that needs to switch just once in 24 hours (the date indicator...but if it's a retrograde date indicator as it looks to be, that may need more explaining!).

    Then the details of the finishing, which may need a loupe and again some homework on minute finishing details.



    Or just scrap all that and ask which they think is worth which amount, going solely on the brand name

  4. #4
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    When speaking to a layperson I would just say they are both worth £30...problem solved!

  5. #5
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    Us vs Lay people

    It is a tough one. And you have your work cut out. 'Fancy' watches are not easy to justify without calling in emotion and ego etc.

    The Rolex has more Cachet but that is a great deal of money for Cachet. Mechanically they are not equal but not as different as the price tags suggest.

    You have hit the nail on the head really with respect to WIS world. I dare say it applies to Art (perhaps more)



    People (including me I am afraid) are prepared to suspend rational logic and pay a premium in order to impress themselves and others.

    Give the decision to a computer to solve and it would go for the ParnisÖ. depending on who wrote the code of course.

  6. #6
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Just tell them the two different values and I'm guessing they'll know from the brand names which one is 30k.
    It's just democracy.

  7. #7
    I don't think you can. Like any luxury goods you are mainly paying for the brand name. Unless its something technically advanced which the Rolex isn't they its hard to justify.

  8. #8
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    I had similar feelings when I owned an Explorer 1, sitting it side by side with a black-dialled Seiko 5. One was worth over £3.5K, one was worth £35! I think that was the point where I decided to sell the Rolex, one year later I can`t say I`ve missed it.

    Rolex have become too expensive over the past 10-12 years, but in recent years it's become silly. Most non watch enthusiasts would think you were mad for owning a watch worth over £10K, never mind £30K.

    The whole Rolex thing has gone away from me in recent years, its all gone crazy. I`m happier with old watches worth a few hundred pounds, there's no pleasure with having several grands-worth of watch on your wrist when you're walking around.

  9. #9
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    I would not do so. There's no point.

    Let them wonder. Tell them the difference if they ask.

  10. #10
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Iíd say itíd be hard to explain (and justify) to anyone why the Daytona is ďworthĒ £30,000. It may be the market value, but I donít think that means itís worth £30,000.

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    Master mr noble's Avatar
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    Agreed with all the comments.

    I was intending this thread in more of a tongue in cheek way, as obviously on here, we all know the answer.

    It was more of an observation of the craziness of the market we are experiencing, that what are essentially two similar pieces of metal and glass can be worth such differing values.


    I guess, as someone above said, the art world demonstrates an even more crazy gap.



    I also agree that the fun have subsided as the values increased. I used to be cautious when I wore the Daytona when it was worth 7 grand. Now, I don't really enjoy wearing it, and hardly ever do, as the thought of clattering it into a door frame fills me with fear. Shame.

  12. #12
    Not sure the art comparison is a valid one because each piece of art is typically unique. A Rolex watch isn't. The truth is that there's a quality and aesthetic difference, but brand perception married up to ego accounts for the biggest part of the difference in value

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    Iíd say itíd be hard to explain (and justify) to anyone why the Daytona is ďworthĒ £30,000. It may be the market value, but I donít think that means itís worth £30,000.
    If it sells for £30,000 then it is worth £30,000. That applies to any item or anything on Gods earth.

    It sells for £30,000 because lots of people are chasing after it and most people who are in a position to spend that sort of money are normally quite street wise.

  14. #14
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If it sells for £30,000 then it is worth £30,000. That applies to any item or anything on Gods earth.

    It sells for £30,000 because lots of people are chasing after it and most people who are in a position to spend that sort of money are normally quite street wise.
    If someone buys a normal £20 note for £30 quid does that make ot worth £30 ?

    Sent from my SM-J330F using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    With a Parnis youíre paying for cost of manufacture plus small % markup for profit.

    With a 30k Daytona youíre paying for a large % markup for desirability, which is far removed from cost of manufacture.

    - - - Updated - - -

    With a Parnis youíre paying for cost of manufacture plus small % markup for profit.

    With a 30k Daytona youíre paying for a large % markup for desirability, which is far removed from cost of manufacture.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    If someone buys a normal £20 note for £30 quid does that make ot worth £30 ?

    Sent from my SM-J330F using Tapatalk
    If it was a rare demonination or could be proven to have once been held by some famous person, then yes it could.

    It's all down to the market.

  17. #17
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    If it was a rare demonination or could be proven to have once been held by some famous person, then yes it could.

    It's all down to the market.
    I wrote "normal".

    Sent from my SM-J330F using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    If someone buys a normal £20 note for £30 quid does that make ot worth £30 ?
    Yes it does, at market value at that time.

    It may not be repeatable but it was undoubtedly and demonstrably worth £30 in that transaction.

  19. #19
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    Well, there are so many ways to answer to this question, my favourite one would to be to not discuss the price difference at all. This could shock people, in a bad manner I mean.

    When non watchlover person want to see some of my timepieces , I just give them a eye magnifying lense with the watch (to see Grand Seiko details e.g), if the person asks for a price, I always have the same answer : "I don't remember exactly".




    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Having spent the last month enjoying a Parnis Power Reserve on the odd day at work, I had to take the picture below before closing the safe.

    How would you explain to a lay-person that the complicated one with a date, power reserve indicator, open heart dial and display caseback is worth £30, but the other one that just has a stopwatch, is worth £30,000?

    Discuss....

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    most people who are in a position to spend that sort of money are normally quite street wise.
    They cant be that streetwise if they are prepared to spend £30,000 on a watch that unless I am mistaken costs no where near this price to manufacture, these prices are pushed up my people who really have more money than sense. Of course it is up to each individual what they spend their money on but to say someone who spends 30K on a watch is streetwise, MMmmm not sure about that one lol

  21. #21
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Yes it does, at market value at that time.

    It may not be repeatable but it was undoubtedly and demonstrably worth £30 in that transaction.
    It seems you agree that the sale at £30 is not representative of market value. It's likely that within a few minutes either side of that transaction that hundreds of other £20 would have changed hands, all for £20 value. The sale of the single original note doesn't represent the actual worth of the item. The only point I'm trying to make is that a sale value and "worth" are not the same thing.

    Sent from my SM-J330F using Tapatalk

  22. #22
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevecross View Post
    They cant be that streetwise if they are prepared to spend £30,000 on a watch that unless I am mistaken costs no where near this price to manufacture, these prices are pushed up my people who really have more money than sense.
    It's just not that simple, is it.

    (a) If the person has £30K then they have £30K. They may or may not be streetwise but having and spending £30K is not a sign of not being streetwise (if you will excuse the double negative).

    (b) So what if it costs nowhere near the retail or common market price to make? I agree, it is frustrating that the selling price is completely disconnected from the cost price but these are luxury items and so cost and retail price being disconnected is par for the course. It is what luxury effectively means.

    (c) You say that such people have more money than sense and that is a perfectly reasonable personal view but it is not objective. If they have enough money then, for them, it would seem to make perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevecross View Post
    Of course it is up to each individual what they spend their money on but to say someone who spends 30K on a watch is streetwise, MMmmm not sure about that one lol
    Being able to spend, and then actually spending, that much money really does not seem to be indicative of any objective evidence on this matter one way or the other, as far as I can see.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdh1 View Post
    Not sure the art comparison is a valid one because each piece of art is typically unique. A Rolex watch isn't. The truth is that there's a quality and aesthetic difference, but brand perception married up to ego accounts for the biggest part of the difference in value
    Agreed, whatever they are it's not art, about the opposite of art really when you stop and think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Having spent the last month enjoying a Parnis Power Reserve on the odd day at work, I had to take the picture below before closing the safe.

    How would you explain to a lay-person that the complicated one with a date, power reserve indicator, open heart dial and display caseback is worth £30, but the other one that just has a stopwatch, is worth £30,000?
    I wouldnt, nothing you say will justify spending 30k on an obsolete technology masquerading as man jewelry.
    Just look at the in depth discussions here discussing minute details such as polishing, hand finishing, decorated movements etc, we all enjoy it, but its crazy when you think about it, way up there on the top of maslows pyramid.

    There are lots of things people do that i dont understand, but if they are causing no harm then let them have at it.

  25. #25
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    Just say the silver one pays part of Roger Federer's salary...

  26. #26
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    Compare it to cars or something else more relateable for a lay person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    How would you explain to a lay-person that the complicated one with a date, power reserve indicator, open heart dial and display caseback is worth £30, but the other one that just has a stopwatch, is worth £30,000?
    Just say there are a lot of people out there with more money than sense.

  28. #28
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Compare it to cars or something else more relateable for a lay person.
    I'd say cars aren't really comparable. Spend more and you tend to get something objectively more. Maybe more speed, more off road ability, more comfort and refinement, and so on.

    Handbags might be more comparable, but who really thinks a Birkin is actually "worth" one hundred times more than a £100 one from the high street.

  29. #29
    I think a lay person would be shocked to learn the Rolex costs £30k, most would say about £3k I reckon


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    Master mr noble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    I think a lay person would be shocked to learn the Rolex costs £30k, most would say about £3k I reckon


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    They used to cost £3k!


    Think I paid less than £7k for the Zenith Daytona back in the day.....


    Has all gone a bit daft now, which was the reason for my post. I think most people are taking it a bit too seriously. For the record, I would never tell anyone what either is worth unless they really wanted to know......and even then I doubt I'd say the full value of the Daytona.

    All very ostentatious these days, which is a shame.

  31. #31
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    Tongue in cheek time, just say ďRolex ennitĒ, lol

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    Supply & demand.

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    Maybe worth and value are similar to mass and weight.

    The the mass is always the same, the weight depends on whose planet your standing on.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by K300 View Post
    Maybe worth and value are similar to mass and weight.

    The the mass is always the same, the weight depends on whose planet your standing on.
    The only mass that matters is that of planet earth and right here the watch is worth what it will fetch.

    Aim your product at the right customers who have the right amount of cash and you are onto a winner.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Compare it to cars or something else more relateable for a lay person.
    Good analogy👍 Few people baulk at, say, a series one e-type selling for £100k more than a hot-hatch with comparable performance.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by stevecross View Post
    They cant be that streetwise if they are prepared to spend £30,000 on a watch that unless I am mistaken costs no where near this price to manufacture, these prices are pushed up my people who really have more money than sense. Of course it is up to each individual what they spend their money on but to say someone who spends 30K on a watch is streetwise, MMmmm not sure about that one lol
    Not long back a friend of mine wanted a Speedy Snoopy. They cost around £9k then, and you may have been right to think that anyone buying one may have had more money that sense. But you could also sell that watch today for £18k, so buying it would have made an awful lot of sense in hindsight.

    Streetwise doesn't come into predicting the future value of an item, nor does cost of manufacture. Art, furniture, stones and stamps can all have very little manufacturing cost but be worth vast sums of money today.

  37. #37
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    This, every time.[


    QUOTE=Satori;5245769]Supply & demand.[/QUOTE]

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    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    Good analogy Few people baulk at, say, a series one e-type selling for £100k more than a hot-hatch with comparable performance.
    So letís say thatís 10x more than the hot hatch. In the watch example weíre talking 1000 times more. A lot of people would baulk at a mass produced car being worth 10 million.

  39. #39
    Master endo's Avatar
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    simple really, it’s your life choice you like to waste money on watches, they like to waste it on booze/kids/cars/fashion &/or keeping up with the jones’. The actual value of the watch is irrelvant.


    No justification required past that.

  40. #40
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Some people spend £100k on a car, which only gets you from a to b. At the same speed, unless you break the law, as a car costing £30k.

    Some people buy a Boss shotgun, others buy a Beretta.

    Some people spend £100s on a pair of Church shoes. Some people buy shoes at Shoezone.

    There are endless examples in every part of life. It's just down to personal choice, and as such whatever you choose is good in your eyes, which is all that matters.

    Unless of course you expect to impress others with your choice. Thats a different story altogether.
    It's just democracy.

  41. #41
    Journeyman Jo Hande's Avatar
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    To answer this question: "How would you explain the difference to a lay-person!?" ...

    1. You can say that there is a HUGE difference in quality, and,
    2. The persons in the respective factories doesn't earn by far the same salary, but,
    3. you have to say that the Parnis uses dumping prices and the Rolex is very overpriced.
    4. If you scraches a Parnis, OK so what. If you scratches a Rolex ...
    5. Buying a Rolex, you support enormous their shareholders!


    BTW, instead of buying a 30K£ Rolex, you can buy more or less 60 watches from Eddie!

    Jo, in Greece for the moment.

    N.B.: most average Greeks I know can just afford for example a Parnis, (but Seiko 5 is still very popular in Greece)
    but there are still a few Greek shipowners, tankers or big yachts with Rolexes on the wrist ...
    So, it is all about the money.

    (Sorry for my poor English!)

  42. #42
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    You can't tbh,No watch is worth the astronomical amounts they sell for really,but marketing and the fact some brands pay huge sums of money to celebrities has to be paid for by someone.Break down a Rolex or similar value watch to its component parts and there can't possibly be a huge amount difference to have such higher values!.......IMO.

    We have all become accepting of certain values on certain watches,I'll be the first to say I'm happy with my Rolex watches in terms of what I paid and what they are selling for now,but the fact remains I often think they aren't worth these high prices even so,whether comparing like for like or not.


  43. #43
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    In order to enhance their brand image, Rolex don't want those who are concerned about price to buy their products. They want the "if I want it I will jolly well buy it" brigade.

  44. #44
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    How would you explain to a lay-person the relative value of two different watches?

    "Put your watch on the table, Bond," said Q, gruffly.

    "What's all this about, Q?" asked Bond, with a quizzical look on his face.

    "Pay attention 007, this is important. We're upgrading your field equipment to keep up with the times. It could very well save your life, so I'd thank you to take this seriously."

    The spy unstrapped his watch and laid it on Q's workbench. His trusty Submariner. It'd seen its fair share of actionóin battle and in the bedroom. They'd already made him give up his Beretta in favour of the damned American PPK, a decision he'd disagreed with. What now?

    "This is now part of your official equipment," Q explained as he drew back a cloth revealing Bond's new wristwatch, lying next to his old one. Bond was used to expecting the unexpected; it was a skill he'd honed over years in the job and one that had kept him alive on several occasions. But this was too much! Bond simply stared, lost for words.

    "Yes, I can see you're impressed," said Q. "And so you should be. This is the latest in technological development."

    "Um, Q," murmured Bond. "My old Sub, there. It's a damn fine watch. What on earth is this thing?"

    "Well, it's a Pulsar P2. Wonderful bit of kit. Very reliable, very accurate. Not like that old watch of yours. No, no, no, this one is far the superior watch."

    "I see." Bond was recovering his sensibilities now and suspected Q had something up his sleeve. After all, he couldn't be serious about Bond wearing this trinket, this child's toy, could he? "My old watch, Q. It works as a saw blade. Its magnet can deflect bullets. What can this thing do?"

    "I'm glad you asked that Bond." Q was practically beaming with pride. "It lights up, see? Press this button here and the number light up in red. Very advanced."

    "And...," said Bond.

    "Well, this one has a magnet too. It's in the bracelet clasp and you use it to set the time and date by placing on the back of the watch here." Q pointed to the back of the Pulsar. "Very useful, I'm sure you'll agree."

    Bond started to get angry. "Right, let me see if I've got this straight Q. You want me to swap my Rolex for this American thing? And all it does it light up? Has it got a saw blade? Can it unzip ladies' dresses? Does it have some sort of built-in ticker-tape communication system? Seriously Q, what use to me is this cheap Yankee toy?"

    "Now wait a minute Bond. It's 1974. This Pulsar actually costs about the same as your precious Sub. Future values may differ somewhat, but right now, these two watches have very similar shop prices."

    "I see," said 007. "The cost of these two watches is based on more than superficial looks. Well, that's a useful lesson. Thanks Q."


  45. #45
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    In order to enhance their brand image, Rolex don't want those who are concerned about price to buy their products. They want the "if I want it I will jolly well buy it" brigade.
    It’s no doubt true to an extent, but I’d wager a lot of Rolex buyers would be PP/AP/RM or whatever buyers if they could afford it. A lot will truthfully be in the “concerned about price” brigade, but want others to think that they’re in the “... jolly well buy it” brigade.

    None of that answers the OPs question though...
    Last edited by HookedSeven; 11th November 2019 at 20:23.

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    They used to cost £3k!


    Think I paid less than £7k for the Zenith Daytona back in the day.....


    Has all gone a bit daft now, which was the reason for my post. I think most people are taking it a bit too seriously. For the record, I would never tell anyone what either is worth unless they really wanted to know......and even then I doubt I'd say the full value of the Daytona.

    All very ostentatious these days, which is a shame.
    The most I ever paid for a Rolex was £3350 for a 16610LV and I thought that was ludicrous! I must have gone through about 20 Rolex Ďsportsí models - as you say they were a lot cheaper. I had a couple of 14060Mís at £1500 and Speedmasters for the same, all brand new. That wasnít all that long ago, theyíre all long gone and for a reason - I got bored and moved them on, theyíre not precious handmade objects to be obsessed over - they are nice but not worth £thousands in my opinion, and I donít get the obsession now. I feel like I had the nice Rolex watches when they were affordable, moved on to a point where Iím interested in watches but donít spend much money on them at all. I think when youíve had the thrill of an expensive new watch 30+ times, all of which you end up flipping within a couple of years, you realise the hunt is what itís about, and I canít afford £10k a pop on a watch I know Iíll grow tired of and sell, rinse repeat!
    I also donít want the Ďresponsibilityí of that kind of cash on my wrist, not worth getting your head kicked in over a bit of jewellery- Iíll leave ostentatious displays of wealth to those braver than me , with the fighting skills of Bruce Lee!


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  47. #47
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    Off topic OP, but why £30k? Looks like a standard mk4 dial, albeit the watch is an absolute stunner. Kudos to you for keeping it in that condition. Would have thought £20k-£25k unless something special? No offence intended (I would love to own it), just curious about the details.

  48. #48
    Master mr noble's Avatar
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    Satori, youíre probably right. The £30k number was only for the purposes of this £30 vs £30k post and the discussion on the wider topic of what these things are really worth.

    It is, however, a mint, full set, tritium dialled beauty. Some would says it has a Patrizzi dial. Iíd say the surrounds have mellowed to a lovely brown colour which looks gorgeous. I have owned it for many years and donít intend to sell it anytime soon.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr noble View Post
    Satori, youíre probably right. The £30k number was only for the purposes of this £30 vs £30k post and the discussion on the wider topic of what these things are really worth.

    It is, however, a mint, full set, tritium dialled beauty. Some would says it has a Patrizzi dial. Iíd say the surrounds have mellowed to a lovely brown colour which looks gorgeous. I have owned it for many years and donít intend to sell it anytime soon.
    I was wondering about the Patrizzi dial. Yours has not seen as much full sunlight as some examples. It has obviously been well loved and if it were mine you would have to rip it from my cold dead hands to get it off me.

    There was another watch to the left but I donít remember what it was ;-) because I zoomed in on the 16520 and looked at every detail I could in the photo. A hundred years from now someone else might do the same. Maybe your grand children. I think thatís the point.

  50. #50
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    Supply & demand.
    This is it in a nutshell.


    Quote Originally Posted by K300 View Post
    Maybe worth and value are similar to mass and weight.

    The the mass is always the same, the weight depends on whose planet your standing on.
    Very good. :-)

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