Reply With QuoteThis goes back a long way, I believe Sinn bought the rights to produce the watch.
Not really blatant in a negative way.
I have started to look with interest at the Breitling Navitimer watches, something about those dials that I really do appreciate.
However I came across the Sinn 903 ST BE and tbh I’m surprised that a blatant copy of the Navitimer was made by Sinn. I know there will be other makes and styles copied but I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a blatant copy tbh.
Brietling Navitimer
Sinn 903 ST BE
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Last edited by Martylaa; 6th October 2019 at 18:54.
This goes back a long way, I believe Sinn bought the rights to produce the watch.
Not really blatant in a negative way.
Really? Yep both are good looking watches, I’m just surprised if that’s the case about selling rights to Sinn, the Navitimer is an iconic design so why let a competitor make an virtual exact copy?Originally Posted by Kingstepper
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Yep, Mr Sinn bought the rights to the design in the late 70's when Breitling went bankrupt. I've had a 903, lovely watches. Improved water resitance over the Breitling, too (on the newer ones, anyway!)
Breitling went bust in the 1970s and sold spare parts and design rights to other companies.
Ollech and Wajs also had the right to produce them.
There are a number of early sinn navitimers with double signed dials Breitling/sinn
The best bit is that Sinn’s model is actually waterproof to 100m in comparison to Breitling s 30m...
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Yes, when breitling went bust in the late 70’s they sold / lost the rites for the navitimer.
There is also a ‘aviation’ branded ollech and wajs navitimer of a similar vintage which mechanically was the same as the manual wind breitling navitimers and sold well into the 2000’s when breitling and Sinn were producing updated versions.
**edit: cross-post..wot he said above **
Ollech and Weis made their own Navitimers using old Breitling stock too, the Aviation line. I think there was a history with Sinn there too.
Edit. Cross post x2 .Wot they both said above.
Cheers..
Jase
Googling Sinn Breitling Navitimer is quicker than posting here. Examples of what comes up:
"The late 1970s sounded like an end for Breitling. Willy Breitling had no other choices than to close the company and to sell it. In 1978, Ernest Schneider, avid pilot and holder of Sicura, a manufacture of cheap watches, bought Breitling and moved it to Grenchen, where the new life of the brand began in 1982.
"Something curious happened during those dark times. It was indeed possible to buy new Navitimers without the Breitling logo. However, all the parts were signed with Breitling – case, caseback and movement. Only the dial was adorned with “Sinn”. The reason: Helmut Sinn, a German manufacture (that still creates a watch highly inspired by the Navitimer) bought nearly the entire stock of spare parts when Breitling was sold."
Breitlilng were in deep financial shit and badly needed money. When they finally went bankrupt the parts were sold off and Ollech & Wajs bought a load and started producing a Navitimer under the Aviation brand - google Aviation Navitimer and you will be equally shocked.
That’s a good read that link...
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Sinn Navitimer is next on my list, missed a cracker on SC earlier this year as I didn't have the funds. Darn it.
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I opened this expecting a Chavitimer discussion but no, it's intriguing to know about Sinn, thank you.
That’s very interesting! Always thought the same about Piaget polo and patek nautilus !
Iguna Sell have them at a good price. There is a very good comparison review of the Sinn and Breitling and the conclusion was the Sinn in many respects was better especially considering the eye gouging price Breitling are selling theirs for.
I am amazed anyone didnt know about the links!
As other members have pointed out, Breitling (like many other Swiss brands) do not have a continuous history.
"Has there ever been a more blatant copy"?
Well how about the whole homage watch INDUSTRY that has been built around just Rolex Submariner copies?
....maybe
Sinn may well have the legal right to manufacture the copy but it shows that they lack any self respect.
Usual informed wisdom...
Tell us about Bell and Ross then
FWIW I’d chose a Sinn 903 over the Breitling every time for a watch to wear.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 6th October 2019 at 12:17.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Homage maker must have even less self respect.
Blimey, for someone who's been here a while that shows a STUNNING amount of ignorance...
Perhaps more interesting than why Sinn make the 903 is why Breitling are able to continue making the Navitimer in that style? I assume that there must have been some agreement to allow Sinn (and others) to use the design, but for the rights to also remain with the business of Breitling.
M
Last edited by snowman; 6th October 2019 at 12:25.
I had absolutely no idea. Very interesting none the less.
Why ?
I would agree with this, having owned both.
The Navitimer is long gone
I still own the 903.
It wouldn't bother me, if you like a watch then get it and to hell with what anyone else thinks.
People care too much about the opinions of others, I say stuff them
Surely when Sinn brought the rights it was a toss up if Breitling would have gone the way of UG , Excelsior Park , various Heuer clones like Nivada and companies such as Enicar and Gallet. All those classic watches lost and who knows what they might have created. A good bit of business from Sinn and nothing to be ashamed of.
Why do CVC Capital Partners (Breitling SA) have anymore of a claim to the design than Sinn? Both have gone through a legal purchase of IP.
Sinn did not emerge in the 1960s when it was formed as a fully fledged manufacturer.
It licensed other people's designs, and re-badged them
It also got a lot of its income from the service contract to look after Heuer Bund 1550 chronographs, and eventually was able to sell Sinn-branded surplus ones when they wer decommissioned from service.
Sinn's dessign history is a plethora of models designed from other people's work.
The Sinn 156 was effectively a Heuer Bund with the Lemania 5100 grafted into it.
The 103 is derived straight from an EPSA case design which found most fame as the Heuer Autavia 2446. This case design is all over the range as the 104, 206, EZM1, 3 and 13 etc etc
The 144 comes straight from the Porsche Design chronographs.
The 140 was an externally-sourced design before Sinn took it over entirely
The 903 was a bought in design from the Navitimer on Breitling's demise.
The 756 and 7 are straight from aircraft clock designs.
Even the dial designs are a bit "inspired", the EZM1 dial is almost entirely a Ploprof copy.
Sinn was always what Enzo Ferrari referred to as a garagista, a small concern using the best of other people's work to inform his own. And like many garagistas, Sinn also come up with some inspired stuff. The EZM1 is a design classic, even if it is a parts bin special, in the same way that the AC Cobra is a parts bin masterclass. The U1 is a bit more original, with its lego hands, but is also a classic.
Dave
I was expecting to see a Rotary of some sort. Fair enough.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Sinn have a history of bringing together the best of the rest. No other manufacturer compliments others’ designs with the best of technology at the time quite like Sinn.
My first and favourite.
I always thought the Sinn 103 was “inspired” by the Breguet type XX?
Yes, that's the same case shape as the Autavia, and the Lemania SwAF and early SAAF watches. It is an EPSA design.
Dave
Type XX was a French Air Force specifications. Yes Breguet made some, as did Dodane, Auricoste, Airain, Vixa...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Thanks, wasn’t suggesting it as a bad thing just hadn’t heard of the Autavia connection with that watch before and it has always been one I was planning on buying.
Totally legit. Better than the Breitling IMO
I like the Sinn, what’s the extra crown for at 10?
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To rotate the slide rule.
That is what helps with the superior water resistance compared to the Breitling
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That’s good to know, thank you!
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That’s good to know, thank you!
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Laughable comment...
Better in what way?Totally legit. Better than the Breitling IMO
Isn't it just Breitling parts with a different (generic) name?
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I prefer the look of it, in particular the hour marker indices on the dial. IMO as I said.
Learned about Sinn's 903 over a decade ago - really shocked this is even controversial for some!
Fair enough, not disagreeing, it's in the eye of the beholder.
Personally, I think they all look great.
I even wear my Chavitimer Sekonda now and then!
M
The whole truth and nothing but the truth has been out there for many years just do the research
Just another piece amongst the many to read if interested?
http://www.watchpaper.com/2016/03/20...-chronographs/
Last edited by mart broad; 7th October 2019 at 21:44.
I FEEL LIKE I'M DIAGONALLY PARKED IN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE
If you truly designed something new these days no one would buy it.....
Theres room in a collection for both. I like my 903.ST.GL because it’s more tooly with it’s brushed no-nonsense case and classic dial. Mines a rare manual wind Lemania too with basically the same movement as a Speedy Pro. The Navitimer is a modern limited edition Stratos Grey variant with the in house B01 movement. It’s got a bit of bling but it’s superbly executed and the sunburst grey dial is really stunning. I included the Type XX just coz someone mentioned them above in the context of the Sinn 103.
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