Reply With QuoteHopefully not.Originally Posted by Fraz01
Cars use synthetic oils as well. You still should replace them at intervals. If you don't: more wear and tear and replacement of parts when things go wrong.
Find another watchmaker. This one seems broken.
..... was the rather interesting advice I was given yesterday.
I was passing through a small Perthshire town yesterday and saw a small watch shop so I thought I would pop in. He had a small supply of (mainly quartz) Seikos and a few Seiko wall clocks but not much else that caught my eye. I did however get chatting to the owner and began asking whether he could service my Sinn 556 if I needed it done. He looked aghast and said quite sincerely that modern movements shouldn’t need serviced provided they keep good time and have seals still intact as they use synthetic oil which will not degrade over time and subsequently shouldn’t need cleaned and reapplied.
I have to say I was surprised as I’d not heard anyone this passionate about not servicing watches before.
Does anyone else share this opinion?
Hopefully not.
Cars use synthetic oils as well. You still should replace them at intervals. If you don't: more wear and tear and replacement of parts when things go wrong.
Find another watchmaker. This one seems broken.
Utter rubbish.
I've serviced 5 Watches recently and they all had one thing in common they were as dry as a bone which is not good for the movement.
You’re thinking about drivetrain - engine and transmission oil which is affected by heat, torque, high rpms blah blah blah so not exactly comparable to watches. Now, for the sake of argument, how often modern, say, suspension ball bearings require regular oiling?
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Have a watch that went unserviced for 40 years. Lost 20mins a day. First service cost was a fraction higher than standard (Rolex SC Kent).
The car analogy is ridiculous.
Is it? Oil degrades. Oil in a watch only needs microscopic dirt and metal particles to turn into an abrasive. Certainly the winding parts and the balance staff are quite heavily stressed. 28.800 bph for most modern watches. It is a lot for one single drop of oil on each side of the balance staff.
Anything mechanical needs some lubrication and relubrication at some time.
No comparison between the stresses that engine oils go through and watch oils.Cars use synthetic oils as well. You still should replace them at intervals.
Winter temperatures with cold starts, summer temperatures with hot starts, different range of tolerances and other stuff.
I'll listen to arguments about watch servicing and not servicing but lets keep the argument sensible, just no comparison with engine oils.
I sometimes wonder if servicing makes sense from an economic point of view. I suspect it doesn't except for very high end pieces.
Then I remember that nothing about this hobby makes economic sense and I think about something else instead.
That's not a useful analogy - comparing to an internal combustion engine, which will agglomerate moisture, acids and possibly fuel dilution.
Besides the point. There is mechanical stress that oil is supposed to relieve. The oil will degrade, if alone because of dirt particles in the air and the tiniest particles of metal that will rub off of your watches moving parts.
If - as the watchmaker in the first post claims - synthetic oils wouldn't degrade over time, the same would be true about the synthetic oil in a car. The statement is just plainly false.
We have come very far since the time of Breguet, where animal and vegetable oils were used. Oils that even could go bad and rancid.
The current oils are much better, but absolutely not perfect.
This story ranks alongside the guy who smoked 40 cigs/ day and lived to be over 100! Unlikely, and not representative of what usually happens.
Lets consider this watch story in more detail. It didn’t suddenly start losing 20 mins/ day, it must’ve been running badly for a long time before reaching that condition and it’s a fair bet to say it needed servicing after 10 years. Was it worn regularly for 40 years or did it spend a large chunk of time in a drawer.....or does the poster know?
I won’t dispute that the watch was running after 40 years, but I will dispute that this anecdote is a sound basis for advice regarding watch servicing. In this case, the owner was fortunate that the watch didn’t cost significantly more to be sorted out, I’m surprised but I won’t dispute what’s being reported. Had it been a movement where key parts are now obsolete the story may have ended differently.
We’ve done this debate to death on the recent Rolex thread; I’ve yet to see someone with a detailed understanding of how a watch works, plus hands- on experience, argue against the need to service watches on a regular basis to keep them in good condition. There’s a difference between frequent and regular, on a modern watch I don’t advocate servicing every 5 years but I certainly wouldn’t run one that’s worn often for more than 10yrs without attention.
Vintage / old watches worn frequently are a different proposition, especially when parts are obsolete. If such a watch is worn very frequently I would have it serviced (or partially serviced) every 3-4 years. Automatic winding parts can wear rapidly if not lubricated, that’s a weakness with some old designs, so a vintage automatic watch on the wrist of a very active wearer could do with frequent lubrication..........it isn't rocket science!
Excuse my ignorance but are you saying that the need for servicing of a vintage watch is dependent on the amount of time it is worn and run rather than the passage of time when it's run rarely.
Yes!
However, to say watches shouldn’t ever be serviced is equally ridiculous.
Think the watch maker was saying if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it. Personally, I’d not service any of my watches until they need attention i.e. as soon as the timekeeping starts to get worse. If it’s still going nicely after 10 years then so be it… my SKX033 went on for about 12 years before it started to lose 30ish seconds a day!
In a controversial and slightly round about way this is exactly what he was saying. His opinion was that the case should be completely sealed preventing any dirt etc getting in so the oil shouldn’t degrade. If the watch is losing time this suggests another fault which would need looked at.
I've fitted an oil filter on my watch.
Oil in a car is gradually getting contaminated by petrol/diesel fuel, burnt by-products and condensation and extremes of temperature. . It runs under high pressure, gets aerated, constantly cooled and reheated to extremely high temps again and again over short time spans...
Last edited by steptoe; 26th September 2019 at 11:42.
I think that applies to all watches, but particularly to vintage.
Let's consider the Omega 550/560 models, which are prone to wearing the plain bush in the centre of the automatic winding rotor. This is a simple arrangement, with a plain bush in the centre of the rotor that runs on a hardened steel post (axle).....couldn't be simpler. It's fine if it's lubricated , but once the lubrication dries up or migrates away it'll wear. Once the bush wears significantly the rotor becomes 'floppy' at the edges and will contact the movement or the caseback. If the watch is worn by an active wearer such as myself, who does lots of walking etc, the potential for wear and tear on this item is significant and that's why it's important to keep it lubricated. Conversely, if the watch isn`t worn the wear can`t take place, and the oil film is likely to stay stable for longer.
Here's a pic of the auto-winding bridge, the rotor and plain bush are clear to see:
Staying with the same movement, the reverser (part 1464) leads a fairly hard life, particularly when the watch is hand-wound. This is part of the auto-winding so the potential form wear is related to the activity of the wearer. If someone is daft enough to keep a vintage watch on a watch winder I suggest they have the auto-winding parts cleaned and relubricated frequently! Parts are getting harder to source and consequently they're getting more expensive, these problems can be rectified with new parts but if the watch is lubricated correctly on a regular basis these parts will last a long time.
Here's another example that I posted 2 weeks ago, wear and tear to the mainplate of my C cased Omega Constellation, note how the stem is pushed to one side by light finger pressure.....it shouldn't do that!
gif uploading site
This has been caused by excessive hand-winding and/or setting the quickset date in the absence of adequate lubrication over a prolonged period. This was so bad I ended up swapping the mainplate for a much better one....anyone who thinks a replacement mainplate (if available) will be covered under a standard 'service cost' is deluded! This problem is unusual, but the majority of vintage watches will have some degree of wear in places like this, and it's wear that's related to both regular use and lack of lubrication.
If I had a better camera rigged up to a microscope I could produce a whole catalogue of similar examples.
Yesterday I was asked to service a TAG with an ETA 2824 movement. Apparently it's losing time badly and it hasn`t been serviced for 20 years. I can almost guarantee what'll be wrong and what parts it'll need, unless it's lived in a drawer for years it isn`t going to be pretty.
When watches are run for prolonged periods without service it's often the auto-winding parts that deteriorate, and they don`t affect the running of the watch until the wear reaches a stage where new parts will be needed. The same applies to keyless work, it applies to then cannon pinion on some designs, that'll wear out if the handsetting is used frequently to correct the date etc.
Enough for one day on this topic, I'm not trying to drum up business for the repair trade, least alone myself who does it as a hobby, but there is a point to be made. The repair trade has done itself no favours over the years, with poor workmanship and lots of corner-cutting, but to challenge the need for maintenance of watches is a blinkered attitude to say the least.
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 26th September 2019 at 11:58.
^^^ Many thanks. Very interesting and informative.
Bullshit. Somebody says that synthetic oil doesn't deteriorate. If it wouldn't do so in a watch, it wouldn't in a car. The analogy is correct.
On top of that: there is indeed more heat in a car, but usually you don't have your car running day and night at 28.800 rpm. For years in a row.
The amount of lubrication provided by some tiny drops of oil is highly impressive and in comparison to the use in a car that holds several litre's / quarts of oil, it is extreme use.
Modern oils are great but they outgas and you end up with no lubrication, the Watch will still run however causing damage and when that damage shows up with poor timekeeping or other issues its a bit late and you will need parts.
Older mineral based oils gummed up stopping the Watch so in many cases no damage done a service would get them going again.
A watch isn’t running at 28,800 rpm either.
28.800 bph, thanks for splitting hairs.
You’re welcome.
Edit. It’s not just splitting hairs is it? If you’re saying beats and revolutions are similar, 28,800 bph is only 480 bpm which isn’t even idling for a car at 500 rpm.
Last edited by Kingstepper; 27th September 2019 at 00:30.
I would agree with others here , I am relatively new to this hobby but even I know that you will have to service your watches at some point !
You just cant keep running anything mechanical ,without some sort of attention and expect it to keep performing as intended
Never heard of this before, the term ‘outgas’ is news to me. Do you have any references to back this up?
Can’t agree with your last statement, by the time the watch stopped a lot of damage could’ve been done.
This thread is a mine of information ... thanks .
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Explain automatic gearbox oil that both car and oil manufacturers state doesn’t need changing for the life of the car, I’m not saying that watches don’t need servicing, they do, but your analogy to a car engine is absurdly wrong.
A multitude of components are "sealed for life" by manufacturers such as differentials, what is your view on that?
To think that lubricants in watches have an extreme life is crazy.
If the watch is running fine, feels smooth when winding etc then I would not consider a service regardless of age.
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I find the engine oil comparison to be completely wrong, the fastest thing moving in a watch is a balance wheel as opposed to items in a car engine that are turning at many thousands of times per minute, also I am curious why an oil in a car turns Black?, I may be wrong but would watch oil pick up these contaminants that turn a golden coloured oil to deep Black oil?.
If you search online, you can find wonderful pictures of watchparts that are worn away. Metal particles that ended up in the oil (which became some sort of polishing paste with the contamination.
Remember that the balance is spinning at 28.800 bph for often years without stops. A car engine is only used for a little bit compared to that.
It all comes down to physics, moving parts, wear and a thin film of oil to avoid too much wear. Both in cars and in watches. In both you need to replace it.
The analogy is correct.
Lubricants for "life".. yeah I know that. It is a sick joke.
My XJ has such a sealed for life gearbox. It is a ZF box.
ZF says: change oil every 70k km.
Most gearboxes die at approx. 200k when the oil isn't changed. They can go well over 400k with regular oilchanges.
life is cut short without oilchanges... 5-7 k for a new gearbox at Jaguar. Enjoy. I'll take the ZF advice.
You seem to think a balance spinning at 28.800 bph day in, day out isn't a heavy burden for a tiny drop of oil. Well, OK. I guess discussing that with you is pointless.
Agreed, this appears to be a polarising subject.
I wonder if it is just about the cost. For me servicing costs is part and parcel of owning a watch.
I service mine at five yearly intervals as recommended by the manufacturer at the time of purchase. It may be overkill but I’m happy with that.
Newer watches may have longer recommended service recommendations and, if I had one, I would service accordingly.
Hahahaha!
Not a "heavy burden" at all compared to combustion engine...
Most people here seem to be think that engines are a much harsher environment for lubricants so you being on this forum is pointless, leave?
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Says the jerk with some 90 posts.
The forum is getting worse and worse lately.
What a foul mouth you have, didn't your mother teach you any manners?
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Obviously needs a service.
I agree with much of Groundrush’s summary, the practice of charging a standard service price does influence the economics of servicing a watch regularly rather than wait for it to run badly. I’ve never understood why the pricing is done that way, maybe it’s a Swiss thing, but it makes little sense to me.
Some repairers will charge parts and labour separately, in my opinion that’s the fair way to do it, and that clearly favours the owner who’s looked after his watch and had it serviced in the past.
I had a think about the car v watch oil analogy; despite the high beat rate (28800) of some watches that only equates to 8 oscillations/ seconds. If the amplitude is 300 degrees that’s approx 85% of a revolution, so the balance is running at approximately 6.5 revs/ second or 400 revs/minute. The forces acting on the balance are fairly low and the temperature is around 20-30 degs, so the oil isn’t being given a hard time compared to a car engine running at 6000rpm.....I rest my case!
One mechanism for oil degradation in a car is shear, where the long chain molecules of the additives and base oil are mechanically damaged. I think it’s fair to rule this out for the oil in a watch, even at the balance pivots that are the fastest moving parts, there simply isn’t enough force/energy to create shear.
So, that leaves us with a question: what causes the lubrication in a watch to eventually break down and fail? If we rule out the shear effect, we rule out temperature effects, we assume oxidation of modern synthetics to be v. low, we rule out UV degradation........what are we left with?
The two factors remaining are evaporation and migration. Oils have high boiling points and I would expect the vapour pressure at ambient temp to be extremely low, but finite. In theory, some of the oil must vapourise to saturate the atmosphere inside the watch, my gut feeling says this will be miniscule and doesn’t constitute a plausible explanation, coupled with the fact that the airspace inside a watch isn’t being replenished, it’s a sealed environment.
Having dismissed other mechanisms, migration of the oil is what we’re left with. The oil is drawn towards the metal surfaces and spreads itself to form a very thin layer. There are factors that prevent or minimise this; the oils supposedly have ‘anti-spread properties’, some parts are epilame treated, but one of the key factors is the use of jewelled bearings. The oil has a strong affinity for the jewel, and once applied that’s where it prefers to stay. It’s like a tug of war, the attraction of the oil to the jewel versus the tendancy to spread down the metal pivot of the rotating part. The capillary effect will also favour the oil staying where it should, the attraction to the jewel is strong and the diameter of the hole is tiny when it’s got the pivot in place.
One major variable is the initial oiling of the watch during assembly, I’m convinced this is significant factor that goes some way to explain the inconsistency in service life of a movement. I’ve taken newish ETA 2824s apart that are giving poor amplitude, after stripping, cleaning and re- oiling they run fine, for me that raises a question over the initial oiling. Conversely I’ve stripped Miyota 9105s down with the same problem and there’s been oil all over the movement in places where it shouldn't be, almost as if a chimp has oiled the watch. Too much oil, oil in the wrong place, or the wrong oil, creates drag, and that’s bad for amplitude.
Enough on oiling for now, but the more I think about it the more I realise how expensive watch lubricants are at around £20 for 2mls. The Moebius website makes elaborate claims for these wonder oils and greases, a few years later a ‘ new improved’ version comes along........can’t help smelling bullshit when I see this but we all have to buy the right stuff and use it, it’s an act of faith. When I look at my 5g jar of Kluber P125 that cost over £70 perhaps I should worship it, and give thanks to the Gods who created the stuff!
I think the word you were looking for is 'minefield'. Too many 'Yeah, but no, but yeah' posts & no clarity at all.
In fact, typical TZ-UK content these days.
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Jim.
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