Reply With QuoteNormally, and I say, "normally" warranties etc are only valid if any servicing etc has been carried out within manufacturers guidelines and spec.
I find it a bit strange that you weren't given a proper warranty booklet/paperwork
As there seems to be a wealth of knowledge and experience on here relating to used car matters I thought that I would post this here for comments and suggestions.
1. Bought Mrs V a used MX5 from a dealer in March
2. I paid towards the top end of dealers prices at £3900 for an 07 plate.
3. Came with a warranty covering everything for 3 months and the engine for 12 months
4. No warranty agreement or terms - the 'warranty' was written on the invoice
5. Since purchase its done 12K with one service at 10K carried out by Mrs V's son in law - no paperwork for this as he did it in his driveway, hes a qualified mechanic
though
6. Last month it threw a rod and wrecked the engine
7. Dealer said, no problem, get it back hear and we will deal with it under warranty. Offered my a courtesy car - which I didn't take him up on
8. Emailed me this morning to say that his part provider (don't quite understand this) is querying the mileage and service history since purchase - they want invoices
and receipts for the new oil that has been used
9. Told him that I don't have any receipts etc
10. He says that it looks as though the warranty is invalidated but he will have a thing about it - possibly offering me something a greatly reduced labour costs
11. I have reminded him that he provided no written conditions to the warranty so there is no way that I could know that I was invalidating it
11. I have told him that I am not prepared to pay any money and to factor this into his further considerations
Am I being unreasonable?
Thoughts and comments?
Last edited by Velorum; 24th September 2019 at 13:41.
Normally, and I say, "normally" warranties etc are only valid if any servicing etc has been carried out within manufacturers guidelines and spec.
I find it a bit strange that you weren't given a proper warranty booklet/paperwork
It doesn't look good Ian, I'd be preparing for a "game on" scenario with the dealer here. You know how the motor trade bobs, weaves, twists and turns when it comes to responsibility.
Choose your weapon...
Does the car's insurance policy include legal advice?
As recently posted elsewhere, if you paid even part on a CC then the card issuer may also be liable. Also talk to CAB.
Does the SiL not even have the invoice for the oil?
Can you get an engineers report in to why it threw a rod?
Worst case scenario there are people selling 100k MX-5 engines for £300 on ebay and either the SiL fits it or you pay a garage to do it, internet suggest 6 - 12 hours labour.
Thanks folks
I have just checked the recommended service intervals and I think that they are 12K so it was due a service but only just - perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned my son in law having serviced it as this has just provided leverage for them to argue that inferior oil etc may have been used
I will see what he comes back at me with and then decide how I want to argue the toss from there. At the moments its sitting in his back yard so it cant stay they forever and Im not taking a non runner back.
I’d have a look at the consumer rights act 2015- if you are still within 6 Months it’ll make it a lot easier to let’s say have a discussion with the Dealer.
By providing a warranty doesn’t lessen your rights as a consumer, a warranty can state this an that but at the end of the day you are covered by the act end of. A car dealer can sell a car without a so called warranty but is still subject to the act, stops the old of practice as selling ‘sold as seen’ etc... removed for scrap declarations different kettle of fish.
I’d personally give your local trading standard office as a quick call, they’ll advise you a bit more as the act can be a bit of a minefield. Unfortunately with this type of problem you’ll get loads of conflicting info and everyone turns into an legal expert. Give them a call very helpful with this type of issue. I know enough from being in the trade for longer than I wish to remember but in no way an expert :-)
Sounds like the dealer is at least trying to work with you, a lot would just try and wash their hands of it.
Last edited by Rob153; 24th September 2019 at 14:53.
Doesn't your son in law have the receipts for the parts used in the service ?Originally Posted by Velorum
Surely you'd have them as a matter of course as part of the cars service history seeing as it was serviced on a driveway with no garage invoice/stamp.
Yes, at least we are maintaining a dialogue
Looks like Boris will be at a loose end soon so I could see if he wants to conduct negotiations for me
I'm confused about " his parts supplier" if it has thrown a rod the engine is probably scrap, it must have piston, bore, cylinder head damage or all three. is his parts supplier the local breakers?
So am I
Here is the email exchange so far
First one:
Hi Ian,
I'm getting some push back from my parts supplier, there's much shouting because the engine is obviously totally destroyed and there isn't much sign of oil. Clearly it would have lost oil because there is a hole punctured through the block by the conrod, but there was no oil at all left in the engine and not very much in and around the engine when we looked at it - which is giving rise to our supplier saying lack of oil is the probable cause of failure, so can you help:
The car has done around 12000 miles since you took i, which is a long distance to go on a rebuilt engine without a service (if you've had it serviced then great that makes my life easy) - an MX5 would typically use 0.5ltr / 1000 miles, did you regularly check the level and do you have any receipts showing you bought oil?
In the mean time I'm trying to find an engine block, so bear with me and if you need a loan car let me know.
My response:
Hi Steve
Sorry to hear that this is giving you grief!
However I do understand the points being made.
Firstly, as regards servicing. It was serviced 2 months ago by my son in law which is a mechanic working in Saltash, Cornwall. I don't have an invoice for obvious reasons but I could get a statement or something similar from him if that would help. In addition to the service he replaced the f/o/s wheel bearing / hub unit as it had been getting progressively worse.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and had I foreseen problems I would have had it serviced at the Japanese car specialist next door for the sake of having an invoice!
As regards oil consumption. I had been checking the oil level every 2 weeks after reading on the internet that you have to be careful to maintain this with MK3's as it's a known weak point. I would say that it was using more oil that the figure you quote - in the region of 1ltre every 1K miles. To be completely honest I hadn't checked the oil for 3 weeks prior to the breakdown (just checked my diary) but she hadn't really driven it much. When it broke down she was in her way back from Cornwall so at the point of failure it had done about 300 miles since leaving home.
Does this help?
Second one:
Ian,
this does complicate things..For anyone to honour the 12 month warranty I must have an invoice for the oil change the guy did and it must 1. show the oil he used and 2. the garage needs to show that he has a purchase invoice for the correct oil (this isn't uncommon in these instances - I have to show these purchase invoices to all our fleet and online third party garage booking companies ). It is now obviously going to be said that the car was fine for 10k miles and the problem happened after it was serviced - which everyone will argue points back to the servicing garage... I will also need something from you to show the oil you have been topping up with is the correct oil grade and spec for the car.
Oil usage, 1ltr / 1000 miles is pretty normal - even modern cars like Mini's have this as standard.
My response:
Hi Steve
Thanks for the clarification.
I don't believe I had written terms and conditions relating to the warranty at the point of sale?
Unfortunately (for me!) I don't have the documentation your list.
Would I be right in assuming that due to the above the warranty will not be honoured in whole or part?
Third one:
Ian,
the problem is that modern engines must have the correct oils, it is terribly critical and there's dozens of different grades. Most garages list the parts/oils they use in servicing, with warranties requiring OE (original equipment or equivalent) specified components - and all warranties on new or used cars require this. In this case it is even more problematic because we have no evidence of what was done at the service at all and I suspect the son in law was not at a registered garage so we have no recourse there.
Certainly I won't get anything from my suppliers, but let me work out some costings - I don't mind significantly reducing our labour rates as goodwill.
Let me ponder for 24hrs and get back to you - is that OK?
My response:
Hi Steve
Yes, that all makes sense.
My son in law works for a main dealer but this was done in his own time at his place so wont of course be covered.
I'm sure that we can work something out - however, I don't want to sink any further money into this, so it would need to be with this in mind. I am not too worried about getting the car back so if you want to consider some kind of deal where I can sign it over to you to rebuild and sell on as part of your stock that might be worth considering.
Anyway have a think and get back to me at some point. As ever, there is no urgency.
His tone is OK so I am hopefull that we can reach some kind of agreement - I really dont want to throw any money at it so Im wondering whether he would consider bunging some £ my way, keeping it, doing it up and then selling it as part of his used stock. Is that a reasonable thing to ask if he wont rectify everything FOC? I really dont have the time, storage space and if Im honest inclincation to take this back as a none runner and project manage repairs before having to sell it.
Last edited by Velorum; 24th September 2019 at 15:10.
MX5's of that age did not have service books, so it is only the receipt which proves the service was carried out.
Cant Mrs V's son-in-law just write a receipt retrospectively confirming the parts/oil he used, from his garage business?
I am not suggesting that he reports that things were done that were not, just that he confirms what was done for record purposes, as it has now become necessary for him to do so, even if the work was done FoC.
He is being very slippery, you wouldn't buy a "block" its a Duratec, you would just go and buy another engine, when I have had rods go there is very little oil left (its all over the track) when it is the little end, the rod cuts the crankcase or sump in half so there wont be any oil left.
As he will pay less for garage time than you will how about suggesting you'll supply a used engine if he gets it fitted.
He keeps stating suppliers? Did he tell you it had a re-con engine fitted when you bought it? Like I said if it’s still within the first 6 months your rights do differ, so do check the dates.
Read the garages reply - which is a long distance to go on a rebuilt engine without a service
Did you know it was a rebuilt engine? If not that would be where I'd be asking for my money back.
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get a cheap used engine - get them to fit it - or get a receipt from your Son in Law - he must have used a supplier to buy the bits for the service - so will have a paper trace
+1 to this- If he knowingly sold you the car without disclosing this, then you would have grounds to reject the car and get a partial refund, playing devils advocate you have still done quite a few miles in a 12 year old car. If it was me i’d Settle for 50% back.
Oops - forgot to say that it was sold as having a newly rebuilt engine hence the 12 month warranty. I had to run it in for the first 1K. He said that they had rebuilt it themselves. Not sure what this involved.
Your right, it's an old motor and she has had a fair bit of use out of it albeit in a fairly short period of time.
Totale mileage to date is 98K
I really don't want to be unreasonable and I know how easy it is to become defensive and combative in this kind of situation - which is why I thought I would use the forum as a sounding board
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If a re-conditioned engine threw a rod in such a short time it wasn't done very well. I wonder if it had blown a head gasket and been fixed but the shells weren't replaced,
Do this if you can, even if you have to retrospectively pay the garage.
These engines are pretty robust & rarely fail even when not serviced properly. Do you know anything about why it was rebuilt in the first place?
Buy your own second hand engine from a reputable dismantler and get them to fit it as a goodwill gesture,this will be the quickest and most painless resolution in the long run. You could spend months battling this and £400 should secure a good engine. 50 yrs in the motor trade myself.ps- check oil weekly, my 07 mx5 toy gulps it.
Last edited by meridian; 24th September 2019 at 18:29.
Without reading other comments, from the dialogue I think he seems genuine and helpful which is not common with garages.
Keep everything via email as it creates a paper trail.
I would say work with him in order to get to a amicable solution.
Best of luck.
Ps he seems like one of the good ones.
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1 litre per 1000 miles oil consumption? Surely that's excessive for such a relatively mundane engine?
I have heard of that kind of consumption before but the last one was a BMW V10.
I’d say that if it hadn’t been done very well it wouldn't have covered 12k miles in such a short space of time. And any problem with the shells would’ve surfaced well before 12k miles and been picked up when it was serviced shortly before it blew.
I agree with what Meridian says, I’ve been in the stupid business 33 years too many also.
Buy an engine yourself ...get them to fit it FOC and do a service in 6 months time.......move on enjoy car.
There is no 3rd party underwriting a warranty from what I interpret and if there was they would want evidence of servicing using correct oil grade etc.
Yes some exchange engine suppliers warrant their recons for certain periods but there are strict conditions attached and rarely uphold them.
As it’s thrown a rod oil level is not provable either way....you could spend weeks and month arguing to no avail or litigate and line a solicitors pockets only to end up where you are now.
As an aside the engine in the nc mx5 is known to suffer with oil issues, high consumption and terminal failures due to this.
Loads of instances on PistonHeads, it could be as the garage suggests and just be really bad luck
Thanks for all the comments - really helps me get my head around this.
Although I didn't want to sink any more money into this I did Google used engines.
Couldn't find any for £300 - most were £1K+
Where do I look for a £300 one?
As an aside I am coming to the conclusion that Mk3 are pretty much inferior to Mk1/2 in most respects. Not as nice to drive, awful driving position and weak engines.
My MK2's engine (which had done considerably more miles that the one in question) felt as though it would easily go on to 200K and used no oil between services.
Mk3? Never again.
I too would accept a compromise in this case. The tone of the dealer is not bad IME - I've had worse experiences over smaller issues.
I'm surprised at the 1ltr every 1000 miles consumption figure. My guess is that the average owner won't be adhering to this so there may be a lot of cars with hidden issues.
Start with the owners club type websites and also the insurance co big breakers,you will find one in the end. Good luck and I will keep you posted if I discover a good source.
I’ve had loads of mx5 passed thro my hands and the mk3 is a far superior car in its drive and finish,unfortunately i have to agree with you on the engine but this can be mitigated if youCHECK YOUR OIL REGULARLY.
Update from the dealer today
OK here is where we are.
The engine obviously cannot be rebuilt and any rebuilt engine we buy will now require a heavy surcharge. At best the cost of this would be £1750.
I/we can hunt for a good used engine - I can't see one for sale now but they must come up. If we find one I'll fit it free of charge as a goodwill gesture, but I can't pay for the engine and it won't have a warranty (unless one comes with any engine we buy).
I read from your email you don't want to put any money into this, which leaves us 2 choices - I buy the car as is or we sell it as is.
1. The car with current mileage, with a working engine is worth retail around £2500, but the engine will cost £1750 and I have sales costs of around £250. That leaves my offer to you as £500 for the car.
2. I can put the car on Ebay auction as is and whatever it makes you keep all the money.
Let me know,
Steve
I discussed this with Mrs V (being as its her car at the end of the day) and for a number of reasons we decided to take the £500 and chalk it down to experience
I have a liking for older cars and have been very lucky over the years as regards their reliability so in the general scheme of things it kind of balances out
Last edited by Velorum; 26th September 2019 at 22:34.
If those are the options go option 2...
it will fetch more than £ 500 on Fleabay.
He's already gone for option 1.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I have to say that I think the garage have been pretty good in the way they have dealt with this by giving you options in a helpful manner rather than cutting you dead which is often the case.
I agree.
After ruminating on this and taking into account comments kindly posted above I have concluded (rightly or wrongly) that:
Had there been a significant problem with the rebuilding of the engine it would have manifested itself well before mileage reached 12K. Hence it was perhaps some hidden structural fault in the fabric of the con rod. No ones fault as such - s*** happens.
Knowing that the engine used quite a large amount of oil and the relatively small sump doent hold that much, I should have been more diligent in checking the oil. As mentioned in one of my emails to the dealer I hadn't checked it for 3 weeks prior to Mrs V's (probably very fast - though she would deny it) drive to Cornwall. Most of the cars I've owned over recent years although 10 yrs + age wise have hardly used any oil, especially the Hondas. Had I put myself in mid 70's British Leyland mode then the engine may well have been in better health.
Taking the option to accept the dealers purchase offer I am taking a hit but at least this is balanced with the fact that Mrs V has used it hard for 12K. I've driven it now and then but compared to my Mk2 I didn't really like using it. Too bloated, seat too low and no adjustment available etc. I digress however.
I have neither the time nor inclination to project manage an engine implant and the amount that I would be prepared to pay would almost certainly result in a unit with a questionable history and no warranty. I could spend £300 - £500 and be right back in the same position in a few months time. Hence I'll just take the £500 and move on.
Once again, thanks for all of the comments and suggestions everyone.
Last edited by Velorum; 27th September 2019 at 20:46.
I think you have made the right decision,you clearly have no interest in the faff involved with sorting the problem and are happy to cut,cauterise and prevent any more blood loss. I have done this in the motor trade many times and in my experience this promotes better sleep and an earlier moving on. Well done and good luck with your next car.
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