One of these is a Clone... it’s frightening

[Bondurant]

Love the thought of trying to somehow involve the cashier in a conversation about a Rolex.

[abraxas]

Do you really think Rolex obly has manufacturing costs? How much does it cost to sponsor just about every sporting event? Roger Federer doesn't wear these for free?
.....

Rolex spends £75 million a year on advertising.

[markrlondon]

Rolex spends £75 million a year on advertising.

I note this would be about £94 per watch based upon production of 800,000 watch per annum.

[Omegamanic]

Rolex spends £75 million a year on advertising.

I would suggest that it's a lot more than that even.

[chronolector]

If its possible to knock out a very good clone for £300, it must be possible for Rolex to knock them out for about a grand and a half. Otherwise it's just a premium for the name. Just shows people are buying the name not the watch.

I’m afraid that’s true.

[oldoakknives]

I wonder how many people could actually spot one of these super fakes. The scary thing is that you could buy from someone totally genuine and honest, who themselves was fooled into buying one.
Apart from buying new, or from someone like Haywood it’s a bit worrying.

Yes there is some truth in that but there is a lot you can do to protect yourself.

1. Only buy from someone you can track back. Either visit their house and take a crafty pic of their car on the drive and google their name/adress to make sure it all ties ups.

2. If they want to meet F2F in a town, conduct the transaction in a bank where there is top notch CCTV everywhere and just involve the cashier in a conversation about the Rolex which they will remember.

3. Take it into Rolex the same day and get it serviced. They will always take the back off to authenticate it if they are being paid for a service.

Not 100% foolproof but getting pretty close.

Golden rule is don't trust anyone and don't expect anyone to trust you and act accordingly.

And how exactly will any of these things help, when they have thousands of pounds in their bank account and you have a fake Rolex? Sue them? Involve the police? Start legal action in the small claims court?

Sorry but I don't need any more hobbies to spend my time on.

My point stands. They can be the most genuine bloke you'd meet. But if they bought a fake, not realising it and you buy from them, what then?

[chronolector]

It’s a bit of a “good news” that the day that one could “test drive“ a Rolex for the price of a clone is getting nearer.

[Omegamanic]

This is estimated marketing just in the US for 2014!


"Below, you’ll find the complete ranking of all 71 watch brands that spent over $1 million in advertising in the U.S. market in 2014 (all amounts are in $million increments).

1. Rolex (56.38)
2. Breitling (45.11)
3. Omega (34.49)
4. Cartier (25.45)
5. Citizen (23.62)
6. Chanel (20.89)
7. Movado (19.69)
8. Longines (17.81)
9. Patek Philippe (15.69)
10. TAG Heuer (15.36)
11. Seiko (14.94)
12. Tudor (12.02)
13. Breguet (10.02)
14. Audemars Piguet (9.51)
15. Chopard (7.98)
16. Swatch (7.58)
17. Parmigiani Fleurier (6.49)
18. Richard Mille (6.04)
19. Armitron (5.83)
20. Baume & Mercier (5.71)
21. Montblanc (5.60)
22. Timex (5.52)
23. Rado (5.38)
24. Ball Watch (5.37)
25. Ulysse Nardin (5.12)
26. Zenith (5.01)
27. Nixon (4.85)
28. Shinola (4.82)
29. Hublot (4.69)
30. Dior (4.67)
31. Victorinox (4.61)
32. Fossil (4.34)
33. Luminox (4.31)
34. Tissot (3.98)
35. Vacheron Constantin (3.95)
36. Bell & Ross (3.92)
37. Panerai (3.86)
38. Michael Kors (3.68)
39. Jaeger-LeCoultre (3.49)
40. Casio (3.44)
41. Blancpain (3.39)
42. Ralph Lauren (3.22)
43. Oris (3.17)
44. Bulova (3.13)
45. Louis Vuitton (3.06)
46. Coach (2.95)
47. Piaget (2.93)
48. Harry Winston (2.89)
49. Bulgari (2.50)
50. Girard-Perregaux (2.31)
51. Armani (2.24)
52. MTM (2.18)
53. Vince Camuto (1.82)
54. Glashütte Original (1.81)
55. IWC Schaffhausen (1.55)
56. Fendi (1.54)
57. Anne Klein (1.53)
58. Pulsar (1.53)
59. David Yurman (1.50)
60. Raymond Weil (1.49)
61. Van Cleef & Arpels (1.44)
62. SkyGolf (1.43)
63. Swiss Army (1.33)
64. Marc Jacobs (1.19)
65. JeanRichard (1.18)
66. Mulco (1.16)
67. Bovet (1.16)
68. MeisterSinger (1.15)
69. Gucci (1.15)
70. Garmin (1.09)
71. Kenneth Cole (1.04)"

[asteclaru]

Meh... I think you need to get your eyes checked. I could tell that the top one was fake with one quick glance... I don't even know why (I'm not much into Rolex), it just looked wrong...

[Holsterman]

The problem is with the fakes that you can identify. When we get to the point of perfect fakes, you wouldn't know the difference. Then it wouldn't matter anyway.

We may have already got there. But nobody would know except the faker!

Agreed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprtdKY7s5g&t=1s

[P9CLY]

Climb down from your moral high horse guys,I'd go as far to say many on here will have or have had a rep watch at sometime in their watch collecting lifetime.

Of course only those that haven't will reply to say they never have 

You/We I can go on and on and on and....you get my drift about the morals of buying one and the same about being produced,we all know that is unlikely to change,so just accept that and the forever discussion about it every now and then!.

Some can afford them,some can't,some aspire to owning a Rolex for eg and don't want another watch that some say is a "real" watch and so offer their opinion saying theyd prefer to put that money into a "real" Seiko watch for eg,the chap wants his fake Rolex not the Seiko,that was the choice he made.

And let's face it everyone makes his/her choice.Id certainly not have an opinion on the person for his choice,whether it be fake or real!.......why should I!.The Multimillionaire owner at my Wife's firm drives a Porsche lives in a mansion,owns several properties in Portugal has a PP and several other high end watches,but he showed me his PAM rep!.So he has a PAM rep,doesn't indicate anything else to me about him as a succesful businessman.He could comfortably buy the genuine watch........BUT He didn't,but he might.

[Bondurant]

That hurt my brain to read.

I won't knowingly own a rep though, I'll say that much.

[P9CLY]

That hurt my brain to read.

I won't knowingly own a rep though, I'll say that much.

It didn't really......did it?.Some brains are just too small to take in too much in one go.

Read it a few times to digest.

Tis quite easy to understand.

Your one of the 2nd paragraph it seems...Ha.

[Bondurant]

It was a polite way of saying what you wrote was gibberish.

[RJM25R]

I had a fake Tag Heuer in 1992. I was 19 and couldn’t afford a real one and my parents weren’t well off.

I bought my son a Seamaster 300 Bond for his 18th which he still wears.

I was going to give him a Golf R but I’m not rich enough.

[oldoakknives]

I had a fake Tag Heuer in 1992. I was 19 and couldn’t afford a real one and my parents weren’t well off.

I bought my son a Seamaster 300 Bond for his 18th which he still wears.

I was going to give him a Golf R but I’m not rich enough.

I think the Seamaster was the best option tbh.

[speedypro1111]

I own a rep submariner and I’ve no qualms in saying it’s a pretty decent watch
Of course I only own the rep sub due to not being able to afford a real one according to quiet a few on here ;-)
I’ve probably opened up a can of worms but at least I’m honest about it

[Tiny]

Rolex spends £75 million a year on advertising.

Pretty dumb to advertise when demand is outstripping supply!

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Pretty dumb to advertise when demand is outstripping supply!

You have not really followed this have you?.

Rolex are restricting supply - a wholly different situation.

[IAmATeaf]

You have not really followed this have you?.

Rolex are restricting supply - a wholly different situation.

I was under the impression that they were still making the same numbers but that over the last few years the demand had increased and keeps on increasing.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I was under the impression that they were still making the same numbers but that over the last few years the demand had increased and keeps on increasing.

Where is that impression from?

Think some dynamics through.

Why spend big money advertising what you are unable to provide?

Why can you still buy pretty much anything via a grey dealer if you are prepared to pay?.

Why fill your dealer network with models that stick hen the production capacity could switch to one's that do?

For sure they have a finite capacity, but what we are seeing recently is a strangling of the supply chain.

[oldoakknives]

Where is that impression from?

Think some dynamics through.

Why spend big money advertising what you are unable to provide?

Why can you still buy pretty much anything via a grey dealer if you are prepared to pay?.

Why fill your dealer network with models that stick hen the production capacity could switch to one's that do?

For sure they have a finite capacity, but what we are seeing recently is a strangling of the supply chain.

So Rolex are deliberately making less watches than they have the capacity make? Really?

[canuck]

So Rolex are deliberately making less watches than they have the capacity make? Really?

Gibson guitars seemed to have re-structured the very same way about fifteen years ago. Prospective ADs needed to comply with the following :

Force ADs to improve shop displays and basically buy branded Gibson neons signs, displays frames etc etc.

Force ADs to have X amount of wall space dedicated to only the Gibson brand and a total percentage of overall stock had to be theirs as well. For example... 65 % of wall space had to be Gibson and... the total balance had to be swayed toward Gibson... I.e. you couldn’t cram the other parts of the store full of other guitar brands as a work around.

Stores also had to stock their whole range and not just pick a select few premium guitars or best sellers. Ie. buyers need to be able to see the whole range... and we will offers incentives if you can sell from the whole range and not just the most popular models.

No discounts. Zero.

When the AD reorders models... many other models will be sent as well... and charged... ADs have no control over this and on occasion items will be sent anyway.

Etc etc... it’s a known model. The problem with Gibson’s plan was that their QC did not keep up with their ideas about how to improve the brand image. So one would go in and play a few guitars and walk away disappointed without making a purchase... and store owner had little else to sell you as they didn’t have the space or quantity (smart move from Gibson to decrease the competition).

Rolex seem to be pretty good with QC in my unlearned opinion. So that should be less of a concern. The guitar world seemed to figure itself out in about 5 years and things re balanced. Maybe it was because it just didn’t work well. I’m not sure the same can be said about what Rolex is managing to do however.

The big differences as I see it..

Musical instruments (as new) seem to have a ceiling where as the range of new watch prices vs guitars is much more broad. E.g. electric guitar seems to max out at about 3k for a new one, or around there and s cheap one can be had for say £500 or even a bit less. Whereas watches can be from for a few hundred to tens of thousands. I think I’m trying to say that there was less scope for Gibson to increase prices... they just wanted market space or whatever the term is.

I think the guitar market has slowed down a bit... they’re not really investments like watches can be. I don’t think anyone buys a new guitar not to use it.

As materials are becoming harder to source (no longer allows to use special rosewoods etc) makers would be hard pressed to offer what is seen by some as a secondary material at s higher price than the premium species (walnut or maple vs rosewood ).

So guitar manufactures couldn’t really make less to drive up prices... prices had no where to go... they were just after market share. Rolex however could still greatly increase prices (AD vs grey dealer prices at the moment) and people would still buy them... so this model not only secures market share with the ADs but also should help boost prices. I suspect once their have their Preferred ADs aligned we will see the prices go up... but to this extent I’m really only just using what I saw in guitars as a comparison. I’m sure there are more learned people with a more accurate picture.

I’m sure there’s more but I have s good movie in Netflix and an gonna watch it instead. Boom tish!

[RAJEN]

I was under the impression that they were still making the same numbers but that over the last few years the demand had increased and keeps on increasing.

Your impression is 100% accurate.
There is no credible evidence to the contrary. Half baked theories, yes but zero evidence.
If they were strangling supplies/production how come there are so many with grey dealers?
The real mystery is how the grey dealers acquire these watches.

[markrlondon]

The real mystery is how the grey dealers acquire these watches.

Surely there is no mystery: They simply pay money. As much as necessary and reliably.

In the current market where demand seems to outstrip supply for almost all Rolex models that interest us here, it is self-evident that grey dealers must be paying over RRP, whether this be covertly directly from an AD or, more likely nowadays, indirectly. By "indirectly" here I mean by buying from an intermediary individual who has bought ostensibly 'legitimately' from an AD. Such an intermediary individual might be an independent buyer choosing to flip or they might be F&F of the AD or they might be part of the grey dealer's buying network.

In the previous market where there were both highly desirable models and less desirable models, I can only presume that greys were able to operate a hybrid buying model. As per the paragraph above for the highly desirable models that could be sold for over RRP (and often needed to bought at or over RRP) and by reliably taking inventory off AD's hands (at big discounts from RRP) for models that were not easy for ADs to shift direct to end user customers at RRP.

[bdkelly72]

The more I hear how Rolex treats its consumer the less I want one. Fortunate as I cannot afford one and I like Seikos. :) a perfect balance

Sent from my LYA-L09 using TZ-UK mobile app

[Motman]

So Rolex are deliberately making less watches than they have the capacity make? Really?

Yep. In the same way as De Beers hold back many of the diamonds they mine. Basic rules of supply and demand. Restrict the supply, increase the demand.

[jameswrx]

Where is that impression from?

Think some dynamics through.

Why spend big money advertising what you are unable to provide?

Why can you still buy pretty much anything via a grey dealer if you are prepared to pay?.

Why fill your dealer network with models that stick hen the production capacity could switch to one's that do?

For sure they have a finite capacity, but what we are seeing recently is a strangling of the supply chain.

Haven’t you contradicted your restricted supply point point by saying

Why can you still buy pretty much anything via a grey dealer if you are prepared to pay?

I don’t see a restriction from Rolex at all, there’s thousands out there for sale it’s just most of the time flippers or grey dealers got there first and are charging a huge premium for them.

The way people talk it used to be they were stacked hundreds deep in every store window. It wasn’t that long ago you could see the same dusty old submariner in the AD’s window every time you went up town. There was never really ‘that’ many about in AD’s so the demand by the flippers has meant there’s only one in the safe.

The worm will turn soon, fashions change, economics change, it won’t be so easy for the IG generation to get credit soon. Grey dealers will have to offload and the Rolex dealers will be back to kicking Daytona’s about under the desk.

[Boss13]

Haven’t you contradicted your restricted supply point point by saying




I don’t see a restriction from Rolex at all, there’s thousands out there for sale it’s just most of the time flippers or grey dealers got there first and are charging a huge premium for them.

The way people talk it used to be they were stacked hundreds deep in every store window. It wasn’t that long ago you could see the same dusty old submariner in the AD’s window every time you went up town. There was never really ‘that’ many about in AD’s so the demand by the flippers has meant there’s only one in the safe.

The worm will turn soon, fashions change, economics change, it won’t be so easy for the IG generation to get credit soon. Grey dealers will have to offload and the Rolex dealers will be back to kicking Daytona’s about under the desk.

I agree - don't necessarily think there is an artificial restriction from Rolex, rather the demand has increased dramatically.

However, I do not see that correcting itself anytime soon. Easy solution for Rolex - 30% price rise!

[g40steve]

Meh... I think you need to get your eyes checked. I could tell that the top one was fake with one quick glance... I don't even know why (I'm not much into Rolex), it just looked wrong...

Don’t take this the wrong way but unless you have a loupe you may well be surprised how good these insurance scam items are.
How anyone would purchase from a well known auction site just by looking at photos is beyond me.
Everyone says whip the back off to be sure, I spent some time last weekend handling some of these items & comparing high resolution photos of originals against open backed items.
They had the engraving, movement number, correct colours, shocking for the man on the streets to understand. But there are giveaways if you see enough of them.
Three watches had been payed out on yet we’re actually real!.

Rolex, AP, Cartier, PP among the offerings.

[abraxas]

Rolex spends £75 million a year on advertising.

I got that figure from from Jake at Jake's Rolex World.

[abraxas]

I love it when ArchieLuxury films outside Rolex dealers to show they have no stock and no customers. How are they surviving with their overheads? To me it appears obvious that their allocation goes out through the back door.

[oldoakknives]

I love it when ArchieLuxury films outside Rolex dealers to show they have no stock and no customers. How are they surviving with their overheads? To me it appears obvious that their allocation goes out through the back door.

It's something that could be happening, as well as employees/ADs mates being rather well blessed with steel sports models. Who would ever know?

[steptoe]

If its possible to knock out a very good clone for £300, it must be possible for Rolex to knock them out for about a grand and a half. Otherwise it's just a premium for the name. Just shows people are buying the name not the watch.

Marvelous, off you go then, down to 4000ft and let us know how your clone performs.

[P9CLY]

It was a polite way of saying what you wrote was gibberish.

Be honest it really did make your tiny brain hurt because it was too much for you to take in....Ha.

Read it slowly it's not gibberish.

[P9CLY]

Gibson guitars seemed to have re-structured the very same way about fifteen years ago. Prospective ADs needed to comply with the following :

Force ADs to improve shop displays and basically buy branded Gibson neons signs, displays frames etc etc.

Force ADs to have X amount of wall space dedicated to only the Gibson brand and a total percentage of overall stock had to be theirs as well. For example... 65 % of wall space had to be Gibson and... the total balance had to be swayed toward Gibson... I.e. you couldn’t cram the other parts of the store full of other guitar brands as a work around.

Stores also had to stock their whole range and not just pick a select few premium guitars or best sellers. Ie. buyers need to be able to see the whole range... and we will offers incentives if you can sell from the whole range and not just the most popular models.

No discounts. Zero.

When the AD reorders models... many other models will be sent as well... and charged... ADs have no control over this and on occasion items will be sent anyway.

Etc etc... it’s a known model. The problem with Gibson’s plan was that their QC did not keep up with their ideas about how to improve the brand image. So one would go in and play a few guitars and walk away disappointed without making a purchase... and store owner had little else to sell you as they didn’t have the space or quantity (smart move from Gibson to decrease the competition).

Rolex seem to be pretty good with QC in my unlearned opinion. So that should be less of a concern. The guitar world seemed to figure itself out in about 5 years and things re balanced. Maybe it was because it just didn’t work well. I’m not sure the same can be said about what Rolex is managing to do however.

The big differences as I see it..

Musical instruments (as new) seem to have a ceiling where as the range of new watch prices vs guitars is much more broad. E.g. electric guitar seems to max out at about 3k for a new one, or around there and s cheap one can be had for say £500 or even a bit less. Whereas watches can be from for a few hundred to tens of thousands. I think I’m trying to say that there was less scope for Gibson to increase prices... they just wanted market space or whatever the term is.

I think the guitar market has slowed down a bit... they’re not really investments like watches can be. I don’t think anyone buys a new guitar not to use it.

As materials are becoming harder to source (no longer allows to use special rosewoods etc) makers would be hard pressed to offer what is seen by some as a secondary material at s higher price than the premium species (walnut or maple vs rosewood ).

So guitar manufactures couldn’t really make less to drive up prices... prices had no where to go... they were just after market share. Rolex however could still greatly increase prices (AD vs grey dealer prices at the moment) and people would still buy them... so this model not only secures market share with the ADs but also should help boost prices. I suspect once their have their Preferred ADs aligned we will see the prices go up... but to this extent I’m really only just using what I saw in guitars as a comparison. I’m sure there are more learned people with a more accurate picture.

I’m sure there’s more but I have s good movie in Netflix and an gonna watch it instead. Boom tish!

Way way to much for Bondurant to absorb here.His brain will hurt.........again.

[bond]

Marvelous, off you go then, down to 4000ft and let us know how your clone performs.

Ha yes you may get to 50m if that with steaming up) moisture and what not. Most are with the DG movement which can last forever or be a lemon and die on the first day. Roll a dice.
I don't think you can trust these watches as tool watches , merely showpieces to fool friends and enemies. As mentioned people say spend the money on a brand you can trust . At least the specs should be compounded in the performance and longevity. There are a few characters on Instagram offering super clones with a 3135 and even say " a full set" for over £1000 . Then the ETA 2824 is £500 and so on .

I personally think they use a real brand as the showpiece and what you get is something else.

Some photos of the clones -

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[J J Carter]

Explorer II is genuine. Under a loupe, all the fakes have manufacturing flaws such as pits in the lume, splodges in the paint on the bezel or wonky laser etching of Rolex crown in crystal

[burnside]

I'd struggle to tell them apart. That's why I tend to buy on here as this place is pretty good at picking these things up.

[NigeG]

Explorer II is genuine. Under a loupe, all the fakes have manufacturing flaws such as pits in the lume, splodges in the paint on the bezel or wonky laser etching of Rolex crown in crystal

Love the wonky six on the Explorer 1 and the “fat” hour hand on the Sub


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Bondurant]

Be honest it really did make your tiny brain hurt because it was too much for you to take in....Ha.

Read it slowly it's not gibberish.

Neither my tiny brain nor my pain threshold can cope with reading it again, sorry.

[Omegamanic]

Yep. In the same way as De Beers hold back many of the diamonds they mine. Basic rules of supply and demand. Restrict the supply, increase the demand.

No.

[Omegamanic]

The Rolex Watch Co.

2017 was a 23% increase in turnover over 2016. Let's see what YE 2018 accounts show.

But, at least Rolex UK limited shows exactly the same amount for 2017 and 2018 - £1k ;)

There is no planned restriction at present - from any information I can see available, just an increasing demand.

BLNR's didn't sell that well at RRP years ago - what's changed?

[Wooster]

Neither my tiny brain nor my pain threshold can cope with reading it again, sorry.

You're stronger than I am anyhow. Couldn't make it to the end of his post in one reading :)

[Tiny]

Marvelous, off you go then, down to 4000ft and let us know how your clone performs.

Anyone here use their Rolex down to 4000ft?

[Mick P]

I once jumped off a cliff edge and probably went about 8ft under for a couple of seconds. The Rolex seemed to be in better nick than I was.

[abraxas]

Agreed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprtdKY7s5g&t=1s

Blockchain tech against fakes
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TC7pykxdIGI

[MrGrumpy]

I own a rep submariner and I’ve no qualms in saying it’s a pretty decent watch
Of course I only own the rep sub due to not being able to afford a real one according to quiet a few on here ;-)
I’ve probably opened up a can of worms but at least I’m honest about it

I'd like to claim the relative moral high ground by saying that I own a Hommage rather than a rep!!

[abraxas]

I'd like to claim the relative moral high ground by saying that I own a Hommage rather than a rep!!

Is it a Ginault?

[MrGrumpy]

Is it a Ginault?

Steinhart. Ginault sounds like it'd be too pricey for me!