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Thread: Rugby world cup 2019

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsmck View Post
    English football didn't really dominate the Czech Republic in October. Just saying like.
    Cricket world cup was amazing tho, as was the ashes series. Thoroughly love English cricket atm.

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    English football was more in reference to the domestic teams in Europe...... Chelsea v arsenal...... And the mighty Liverpool v Tottenham.

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  2. #602
    England have still got the best fan.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    England have still got the best fan.
    I think most countries would say that

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Again the positive thing is in a world where hatred and xenophobia is rife politically we get a black captain lifting the World Cup

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    Can't believe in this day and age, the colour of the captain is important tbh. I don't think most people would care.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Can't believe in this day and age, the colour of the captain is important tbh. I don't think most people would care.
    Lol. Just look at the current political situation.

    Re Kolisi lifting the cup - it is vital for South Africa that a black Saffer lifts the cup as it represents a watershed moment in their sporting history. You might want to research said South African history and decide if you want to retract that comment.

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    Last edited by ryanb741; 2nd November 2019 at 16:01.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    I think most countries would say that
    Not fans!

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Lol. Just look at the current political situation.

    Re Kolisi lifting the cup - it is vital for South Africa that a black Saffer lifts the cup as it represents a watershed moment in their sporting history. You might want to research said South African history and decide if you want to retract that comment.

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    The current political situation doesn't have any bearing on my views regarding colour, never has.

    I have an inkling of SA history, and I hope they want to put that kind of thing behind them.

    Anyway perhaps a little too political for the G&D so I'll leave it there. You may wish to carry on elsewhere.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Not fans!
    Ah. I missed that

  9. #609
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    For any neutral it was a very entertaining match and, let's be honest, v close up until the last 15 mins. Frustrating for England, esp. given their previous match, but they can take some comfort knowing they were beaten by a superb performance.

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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefmcd View Post
    For any neutral it was a very entertaining match and, let's be honest, v close up until the last 15 mins. Frustrating for England, esp. given their previous match, but they can take some comfort knowing they were beaten by a superb performance.

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    Quite, I thought it was a good match to watch, just disappointing that England lost. But good sport.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    The current political situation doesn't have any bearing on my views regarding colour, never has.

    I have an inkling of SA history, and I hope they want to put that kind of thing behind them.

    Anyway perhaps a little too political for the G&D so I'll leave it there. You may wish to carry on elsewhere.
    It is important in that rugby was always seen as a white game and the symbolism of a black man leading the team will not be lost on either the blacks or Afrikaners.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Can't believe in this day and age, the colour of the captain is important tbh. I don't think most people would care.
    it’s a very good point, and it should have no bearing but the fact that it does just shows how far things still need to move.
    It's just a matter of time...

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    It is important in that rugby was always seen as a white game and the symbolism of a black man leading the team will not be lost on either the blacks or Afrikaners.
    For that perhaps, but the hope is surely that all can move forward and such things no longer have any importance.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    For that perhaps, but the hope is surely that all can move forward and such things no longer have any importance.
    Not for most of us.

  15. #615
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    Hopefully sidestepping any political issues..

    Well done SA, the better team on the day. Commiserations to England and their fans. They didn't really get into their stride today. Really feel for Sinkler who's KO meant he didn't get a chance to show what he can do.

    Despite the obvious disappointment at the moment I think England can take a great deal away from the tournament, and any team that can dismantle the ABs the way they did are most definitely doing something right.

    What a great tournament we've all been treated to.

    Looking forward to the Six Nations, it's shaping up to be a cracker.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Hopefully sidestepping any political issues..

    Well done SA, the better team on the day. Commiserations to England and their fans. They didn't really get into their stride today. Really feel for Sinkler who's KO meant he didn't get a chance to show what he can do.

    Despite the obvious disappointment at the moment I think England can take a great deal away from the tournament, and any team that can dismantle the ABs the way they did are most definitely doing something right.

    What a great tournament we've all been treated to.

    Looking forward to the Six Nations, it's shaping up to be a cracker.
    Agreed
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  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Hopefully sidestepping any political issues..

    Well done SA, the better team on the day. Commiserations to England and their fans. They didn't really get into their stride today. Really feel for Sinkler who's KO meant he didn't get a chance to show what he can do.

    Despite the obvious disappointment at the moment I think England can take a great deal away from the tournament, and any team that can dismantle the ABs the way they did are most definitely doing something right.

    What a great tournament we've all been treated to.

    Looking forward to the Six Nations, it's shaping up to be a cracker.
    Best post.

  18. #618
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    The England team are getting a fair bit of flak on social media due to some of their players taking their medals straight off and some refusing to wear them at all.
    Pretty poor sportsmanship.

  19. #619
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    Agree big difference between being frustrated and petulant. Comes across as latter.

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  20. #620
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    Without doubt the current England team are physically strong, fast and powerful. Their fragility is in being one dimensional once they cross the white line and lacking any sense of real mental toughness of champions. They simply flatter to deceive and despite all the hype and build up from an expectant country, they’ve failed, again.

    Look at how they completely crumbled against the scots last year in the 6N? Would the top countries that are really good with a seasoned, winner mentality and sound tactically have crumbled like that? No.

    Eddie J as a manager instils a belief but the players don’t seem convinced. Farrell can’t/doesn’t lead it seems as he’s simply not tactically savvy. Dark arts, late and illegal tackles take up too much of his brain power than leading his team to success and being able to turn a game.

    No surprise at yesterday’s result. SA believed they’d win. England simply expected to. Huge difference.

    Jim
    Last edited by Jimmcb; 3rd November 2019 at 21:00.

  21. #621
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    For me it is a shame they lost like that.
    It would be tough losing a well contested game that was close, but England really never fired a shot. It was not close, really. And not a very entertaining match, to be honest.
    From the very start they were nervy and innaccurate, from Courtney Lawes giving a kickable penalty in minute 2 to Vunipola's pass to ground in the middle of our own 22, Ben Youngs throwing a pass that landed 4m away from the nearest England player and so on. The confidence, pace and accuracy demonstrated in spades when beating the All Blacks was gone from the England game yesterday. It was rushed, forced and frail.
    Congratulations to SA, they won well, and were the better team on the day by a distance.
    But as mentioned above, England demonstrated that despite the additional time and confidence, they are a team that are collectively fragile, mentally. When it goes well, it can go really well. When it goes badly, they can rescue it, but they can also fall apart. Yesterday, it was the latter.
    The root of so much of the problem was a disappointingly poor scrum from England. The RSA pack was no heavier than ours, and we have some much vaunted front row players, but only after Marler came on did we stop bleeding penalties. 5 against us, was it? Too many to be able to keep pressure on.

    Dave

  22. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    For me it is a shame they lost like that.
    It would be tough losing a well contested game that was close, but England really never fired a shot. It was not close, really. And not a very entertaining match, to be honest.
    From the very start they were nervy and innaccurate, from Courtney Lawes giving a kickable penalty in minute 2 to Vunipola's pass to ground in the middle of our own 22, Ben Youngs throwing a pass that landed 4m away from the nearest England player and so on. The confidence, pace and accuracy demonstrated in spades when beating the All Blacks was gone from the England game yesterday. It was rushed, forced and frail.
    Congratulations to SA, they won well, and were the better team on the day by a distance.
    But as mentioned above, England demonstrated that despite the additional time and confidence, they are a team that are collectively fragile, mentally. When it goes well, it can go really well. When it goes badly, they can rescue it, but they can also fall apart. Yesterday, it was the latter.
    The root of so much of the problem was a disappointingly poor scrum from England. The RSA pack was no heavier than ours, and we have some much vaunted front row players, but only after Marler came on did we stop bleeding penalties. 5 against us, was it? Too many to be able to keep pressure on.

    Dave
    i agreed with everything you said.

    I was talking to my dad today and we agreed that England simply might have been mentally burnt out. Remember that they had to play Australia, then a week later NZ, and then a week later SA. This compares with SA playing Japan and the Wales. A much more difficult "run in".

    In a game where small percentages can make huge difference, it might explain some of the performances.

    The silver lining is that the average age of the squad and that we have so many youngsters playing. Hopefully in 4 years these guys will have matured in to true world beaters. Fingers crossed.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  23. #623
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    You make interesting points Andy.

    I tend not to agree with run in points though. Playing the home nation in any ‘world’ tournament is never easy and weren’t Wales No1 in the world at that point. Australia on the other hand are doing an Ireland - spiralling downwards and NZ were on fire. They were the toughest team England faced and they considerably kicked their ass! But did they therefore peak too early!!

    And mental fragility is not about one game. There is an inconsistency in their game that makes spectators wonder which England is going to turn up. They seem to fail at big moments. And Farrell is no leader in the shape of others. He doesn’t seem to have the ability to dig them out of tactics obviously going wrong like the bigger captains do. Does he have fulsome respect??

    The desire and inner belief was stronger from SA, perhaps throughout their tournament and they had a reasoned X factor. Belting out a national anthem is laudable but you must believe and trust your training - all the time - to take it into the 80 minutes.

    Was there perhaps a belief of the hard work done by beating the ABs would give them the WC??

    Jim


    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    i agreed with everything you said.

    I was talking to my dad today and we agreed that England simply might have been mentally burnt out. Remember that they had to play Australia, then a week later NZ, and then a week later SA. This compares with SA playing Japan and the Wales. A much more difficult "run in".

    In a game where small percentages can make huge difference, it might explain some of the performances.

    The silver lining is that the average age of the squad and that we have so many youngsters playing. Hopefully in 4 years these guys will have matured in to true world beaters. Fingers crossed.

  24. #624
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    My recollections watching England the last few years are that they’re a very talented team, but consistency isn’t there.

    If England get 10 to 14 points ahead early in a game, and it’s all working, look out as you’ll likely get hammered.

    If they go behind, and the tactics appear to be under scrutiny, they do seem to struggle mentally with chasing a game and changing approaches on the fly.

    I’m no Clive Woodward, so whether that’s right and how you fix it if it is I have no idea. Woodward’s World Cup side did have a lot of mental prep thrown at them if his book and after dinner speeches are correct.

    You could see the worry, then the frustration and then the pain on the England players faces as the game went on, it’s hard not to feel for them after the effort that went in to the campaign.

    I’m still not sure if the pool game they had scrubbed helped or not. You’d say the performance against Australia meant it was a good thing, but it was a game lost where things could have been tried in a competitive environment.

    The RFU will no doubt be forensically going over the campaign in due course anyway.

    Does anybody think Jones might not stay on as coach?

  25. #625
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    Eddie has said all along that they had spotted the NZ game from 2 1/2 years out as a crunch point. It is certainly possible that England were raised to a fever pitch for that, and that the preparation and mental capacity to stay on high alert for another game was lacking.
    Regardless of the cause, I do think that performance is the very definition of mental fragility. Like the Scotland game in the 6 Nations, England allowed one or two errors to propagate into a dozen or more, they were unable to reset, calm it down and go again with precision.
    There were loads of examples. I mention a few above, but others include trying to run it back from behind their lines. Players not jumping for the high ball catch and losing the competition for it. Watson's shoulder barge to "protect" the catcher in the last minutes. There was panic in the way they were playing. Poor decisions.
    If anything, I believe Farrell's problem is that his solution in times of stress is to ask for more of the same. He asks them to have faith, keep the plan. And all that happens is that the same mistakes keep happening. The hole gets deeper because they are still digging. A calmer head might just suggest that it isn't going well, so let's play for territory, take a breather and go again.
    An example. Did you clock the approach speeds at kick-offs? England raised a stalwart wall towards SA, at a fast jog. SA sent missiles in to get the England catcher at our 22. They gained 10m more every kick-off than we did. We had to play from the edge of our 22, they got to the 10m line. That is just intelligent territorial play.
    At the end we started chasing the game and abandoned the plan, choosing to try and contest at 10m, always more risky.

    I think Eddie has done a remarkable job, and that the England team can be the very best, they have the talent, speed and physicality in their game to beat anyone.
    But I still think it is the mental fragility undoes them. One setback can make them tighten up and make mistakes for 10 minutes.
    In 4 years, this team will have the core of it still intact, and should be that much more experienced, giving them the sangfroid required to keep calm in the cauldron. It'll be great to see how it turns out.

  26. #626
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    South Africa didn't have a fortnight off like England, France, New Zealand etc. The fortnight off obviously wasn't the choice of the teams that had it, they'd have loved to play without a shadow of a doubt. But it was still a fortnight off, and one games potential injuries and inevitable tiredness and wear and tear avoided at a key moment. Easier run in than England? Don't think so.

  27. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    South Africa didn't have a fortnight off like England, France, New Zealand etc. The fortnight off obviously wasn't the choice of the teams that had it, they'd have loved to play without a shadow of a doubt. But it was still a fortnight off, and one games potential injuries and inevitable tiredness and wear and tear avoided at a key moment. Easier run in than England? Don't think so.
    True, a weekend off 3 weeks ago! However a Argentina/France (not played)Australia/NZ run in was much tougher than Italy/Canada/Japan/Wales.

    Dont get me wrong England were poor and SA deserved to win, but it doesn't change the fact that England had a difficult set a fixtures. Had England completed all their games and won the Final they would have had to beat every team who had ever won the World Cup.

    A bit like having to beat Argentina, France, West Germany and Brazil to the win the football World Cup. A tough ask.

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  28. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Had England completed all their games and won the Final they would have had to beat every team who had ever won the World Cup.
    Very true, unfortunately they neither completed all their games nor won the final.


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  29. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    Very true, unfortunately they neither completed all their games nor won the final.


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    unfortunately the France game was called off. You cannot blame England for that, notwithstanding I am pretty sure they would have won it.

    However the fact remains that for England to win they would have had to beat every previous winner.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  30. #630
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    So the question now is who will Eddie look to replace for the 6 Nations.

    My money is on

    Young
    Cole
    Mako
    Marler

    And possibly Slade and Joseph.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  31. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    unfortunately the France game was called off. You cannot blame England for that, notwithstanding I am pretty sure they would have won it.

    However the fact remains that for England to win they would have had to beat every previous winner.
    You are right again, I cannot blame England for that, and did not do so. Try reading my post again. I wrote: "The fortnight off obviously wasn't the choice of the teams that had it, they'd have loved to play without a shadow of a doubt."
    'Would have' is not a fact, a fact is something that has actually occurred.

  32. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    You are right again, I cannot blame England for that, and did not do so. Try reading my post again. I wrote: "The fortnight off obviously wasn't the choice of the teams that had it, they'd have loved to play without a shadow of a doubt."
    'Would have' is not a fact, a fact is something that has actually occurred.
    I did read it hence challenged your

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    . Easier run in than England? Don't think so.
    But at the end of the day it doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  33. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    I did read it hence challenged your



    But at the end of the day it doesn't matter in the scheme of things.
    Well it simply wasn't an easier run in. But you're right once again, it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things and everyone has another four years to wait.

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  34. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    Well it simply wasn't an easier run in. But you're right once again, it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things and everyone has another four years to wait.

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    The stats don't work well in England's favour. A runner-up has never won a subsequent tournament. In fact coming 3rd is only slightly better, with SA being the only 3rd placed who won on the next attempt.

  35. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Kent View Post
    The stats don't work well in England's favour. A runner-up has never won a subsequent tournament. In fact coming 3rd is only slightly better, with SA being the only 3rd placed who won on the next attempt.
    Yes, agree. SA are now the most successful World Cup side. Three wins the same as NZ, but have played in two World Cups less. Also they are the only team to have won without winning all of their pool games, which traditionally gives a harder run to the final. On the way they did all that was required to snuff out Japan, all that was required to stifle Wales, and they had what was Englands excellent (but evidently only) game plan completely sussed. Very impressed.

  36. #636
    The locals of The Cooper's Arms were right ......


  37. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopak View Post
    The locals of The Cooper's Arms were right ......

    Lol, I assume that's not the Coopers Arms in Ystrad Mynach, or the left side would be empty.

  38. #638
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    Read an intersting stat earlier. Every team that has knocked NZ out of the world cup before the final (5 occassions including this weekend) have never gone on to lift the cup that tournament.

    I thought South Africa was very impressive at the weekend expecially given how poorly they played against Wales. South Africa did a good job deploying the same tactics against NZ in the group stages. Dfference is SA made a couple of mistakes and NZ were able to capitalise and score converted tries which won them the game.

    Encouragingly for England the squad is very young so most will still be playing next world cup. Just a shame its 4 years away.

  39. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Read an intersting stat earlier. Every team that has knocked NZ out of the world cup before the final (5 occassions including this weekend) have never gone on to lift the cup that tournament.

    That's quite amazing.


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  40. #640
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    Another amazing fact is that when NZ score converted tries they win games. Well who'd have thunk it?

  41. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    Another amazing fact is that when NZ score converted tries they win games. Well who'd have thunk it?
    haha was more making the point that NZ are able to capitalise and convert in to points mistakes far more consistently than other teams. So when playing against a very structural solid team like SA you need that creative spark. I think Englad lack that same level of free playing counter attacking rugby as NZ which hindered them on Saturday. What England can be very good at is ruthlessly executing a game plan, this wasn't the case on Saturday due to being outplayed by SA and they didnt know how to react.

    But yes strip the sentence back if you score more points than the other team and you win.

  42. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    haha was more making the point that NZ are able to capitalise and convert in to points mistakes far more consistently than other teams. So when playing against a very structural solid team like SA you need that creative spark. I think Englad lack that same level of free playing counter attacking rugby as NZ which hindered them on Saturday. What England can be very good at is ruthlessly executing a game plan, this wasn't the case on Saturday due to being outplayed by SA and they didnt know how to react.

    But yes strip the sentence back if you score more points than the other team and you win.
    Agree completely, my post was written after an undisclosed number of pints. Much credit to you for taking it the right way and for your clear and thoughtful response, cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    haha was more making the point that NZ are able to capitalise and convert in to points mistakes far more consistently than other teams. So when playing against a very structural solid team like SA you need that creative spark. I think Englad lack that same level of free playing counter attacking rugby as NZ which hindered them on Saturday. What England can be very good at is ruthlessly executing a game plan, this wasn't the case on Saturday due to being outplayed by SA and they didnt know how to react.

    But yes strip the sentence back if you score more points than the other team and you win.
    In far simpler way, NZ are typically favourites and no. 1 in world, so for any team to beat them, it would logically follow they should win tournament. Yet they never do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefmcd View Post
    In far simpler way, NZ are typically favourites and no. 1 in world, so for any team to beat them, it would logically follow they should win tournament. Yet they never do!

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    Agree completely, I was trying to rationale why NZ were able to beat SA in the group games and England couldnt beat SA in the final when England beat NZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Agree completely, I was trying to rationale why NZ were able to beat SA in the group games and England couldnt beat SA in the final when England beat NZ.
    This is the magic of sport. It often defies rationality. If it didn't, I doubt I'd watch it. Predictability is the death of any entertainment event. Nevertheless, your statistic really surprised me.

    I'm generally finding much more interesting than football of late because of this. The Scotland team ain't great but we gave England a real fright not that long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefmcd View Post
    In far simpler way, NZ are typically favourites and no. 1 in world, so for any team to beat them, it would logically follow they should win tournament. Yet they never do!

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    I think slightly differently.... to beat NZ who are favourites takes a huge effort which leaves you jaded for the following match. This is why that stat exists I think

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Read an intersting stat earlier. Every team that has knocked NZ out of the world cup before the final (5 occassions including this weekend) have never gone on to lift the cup that tournament.
    An interesting stat indeed. If only it were accurate. The Australia team which won in 1991 beat New Zealand in the semifinal in Dublin before beating England in the final at Twickenham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranaki Time View Post
    An interesting stat indeed. If only it were accurate. The Australia team which won in 1991 beat New Zealand in the semifinal in Dublin before beating England in the final at Twickenham.
    That'll teach me to believe everything I read on the internet! Being a rugby fan I feel I should have known that. I hang my head in shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranaki Time View Post
    An interesting stat indeed. If only it were accurate. The Australia team which won in 1991 beat New Zealand in the semifinal in Dublin before beating England in the final at Twickenham.
    I remember that match well, and my ancient BMW which decided to drop its coolant on the old toll bridge on the way home (100 miles from home).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsmck View Post
    I remember that match well, and my ancient BMW which decided to drop its coolant on the old toll bridge on the way home (100 miles from home).

    A very good Australian side and deserved winners on the day. Funny to think that, in some respects, they were fortunate to even be in the semifinal as Ireland nearly did them in the quarters. I suppose it is a sign of a good side to be able to come back and win when the stakes were so high.That amazing Gordon Hamilton try was good enough to win any game, but Australia were mentally strong enough to go up the park and score again (Lynagh?) in the few seconds remaining.

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