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Thread: NEW DEFNEDER OFFICIAL VIDEO ETC

  1. #51
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    "After all, they’re the sort of people who have 45 grand to spend or, more likely, can run to the chunky monthlies on a PCP scheme. This is how Land Rover will survive in these tricky times, by making an expensive car that sells to well-heeled people for more than it costs to make, not by delivering on some deluded 1950s yeomanry fantasy for PC-bound pundits who aren’t going to buy one anyway."

    Nearly fell off me chair.....!! But so true.
    Well, no. It reads like unthinking, reactionary, foolish and naive fanboyism.

    As such, it uses a seemingly obvious truth, here

    "they’re the sort of people who have 45 grand to spend or, more likely, can run to the chunky monthlies on a PCP scheme. This is how Land Rover will survive in these tricky times, by making an expensive car that sells to well-heeled people for more than it costs to make"

    ... but somehow forgets the key fact that Land Rover is already doing this with multiple models. The Pretender, as we now see it, seems overwhelmingly unlikely to generate significant new sales as far as I can see; instead it surely seems precisely (and intentionally?) designed to cannibalise sales of the other pre-existing LR models (chiefly I would have thought the Discovery) that already exist in its decidedly urban niche.

    There is of course at least one SUV niche for which Land Rover have no currently suitable product and, more than that, it is the niche that made their name: That is a SUV that emphasises Utility. The Pretender, despite its claimed capabilities, is simply not in that niche.

    Let us remember that there are many types of customer. There are real world customers with money to spend who do not fit into the urban "they’re the sort of people who have 45 grand to spend or, more likely, can run to the chunky monthlies on a PCP scheme". Other car companies can and do sell SUVs to other types of customer. It strikes me that Land Rover might well benefit from re-broadening its customer base (which the Pretender cannot and will not do since it is effectively indistinguishable from all the other technology-loaded SUVs in the LR line up) since it reportedly isn't doing too well with its current customer base.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    by delivering on some deluded 1950s yeomanry fantasy for PC-bound pundits who aren’t going to buy one anyway."
    Ah yes, the common resort of the unthinking fanboy: A generic, strawman, meaningless insult to those who take a broader and perhaps less limited view. The "deluded 1950s yeomanry fantasy" to which he so emotively refers is not, in fact, a fantasy. There are real car companies selling real cars to real customers that fulfil the roles and capabilities of the classic Defender and its precursors. There is real money there that, it would seem, LR badly needs. Re-broadening outside of their current upper middle class urban demographic might have been a saving grace. As it stands, the Pretender might well sell but, I am sure, at the expense of other LR models, doing nothing overall to help LR I suspect.

    In short, it strikes me that LR have had their day. They've jumped the shark. Sure, they've jumped the shark on a technologically marvellous vehicle with 85 new ways to go wrong in the middle of a field (or on the High Street on the way to pick up the kids) but, all the same, the shark has been jumped.

    I predict it's only downhill from here. I'd love to be wrong. I bet I won't be.

    By the way, where is the Pretender made?




    P.S. I've owned a Land Rover in the past and would have loved to buy a genuinely updated Defender at the right price point one day. Does anyone think that such a vehicle would not have sold well and, indeed, for a profit (if LR's manufacturing was as competent as it surely has to be in order to survive)? But unless I can stretch to a FF RR, none of the other models in the range appeal to me as things stand: They lack clear differentiation. The Pretender offers nothing new or different, clever and nice though it is. If they had called it the 'New Discovery' it would have made way more sense than calling it a Defender.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 11th September 2019 at 19:14.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Dear Land rover, design idea for the new Defender.
    1) Take a Suzuki Jimny
    2) Make it bigger.
    3) Make a LWB version
    4) Make a pick up version
    5) Make a 'panel van' version
    The Suzuki starts at about £18.000 so a Defender should start around £25k+
    Oh and don't forget to change the badges.
    That'd be like asking Panerai to build a competitor to a CWC G10. Land Rover is a luxury car brand, just because a business with the same brand name historically made equipment for the military doesn't mean that this TATA incarnation of JLR should. They're simply not interested in building cars to compete with Suzuki, even if the Jimny does look better.

  3. #53
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    That'd be like asking Panerai to build a competitor to a CWC G10. Land Rover is a luxury car brand, just because a business with the same brand name historically made equipment for the military doesn't mean that this TATA incarnation of JLR should
    They are only perceived to be a luxury card brand because they have chosen to move to that market.

    You say that
    "just because a business with the same brand name historically made equipment for the military doesn't mean that this TATA incarnation of JLR should"
    but so what... there is no special magic that means that what is currently seen as a luxury manufacturer could not or should not sell product into other niches too.

    There is never any magic reason why the status quo cannot change or be expanded.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    They're simply not interested in building cars to compete with Suzuki, even if the Jimny does look better.
    Indeed. But perhaps that is a bug, not a feature. It certainly seems like a bug from where I am sitting.

    The new Land Rover Pretender (or perhaps we should call it the new Land Rover Cannibal) might have helped more if it had been designed to actually broaden Land Rover's customer base, rather than limit themselves to selling to the same people who'd otherwise have bought some other Land Rover vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    That'd be like asking Panerai to build a competitor to a CWC G10
    Or asking Seiko to make both Grand Seiko and Seiko 5. Not so odd afterall, is it.

  4. #54
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Well, no. It reads like unthinking, reactionary, foolish and naive fanboyism.

    As such, it uses a seemingly obvious truth, here

    "they’re the sort of people who have 45 grand to spend or, more likely, can run to the chunky monthlies on a PCP scheme. This is how Land Rover will survive in these tricky times, by making an expensive car that sells to well-heeled people for more than it costs to make"

    ... but somehow forgets the key fact that Land Rover is already doing this with multiple models. The Pretender, as we now see it, seems overwhelmingly unlikely to generate significant new sales as far as I can see; instead it surely seems precisely (and intentionally?) designed to cannibalise sales of the other pre-existing LR models (chiefly I would have thought the Discovery) that already exist in its decidedly urban niche.

    There is of course at least one SUV niche for which Land Rover have no currently suitable product and, more than that, it is the niche that made their name: That is a SUV that emphasises Utility. The Pretender, despite its claimed capabilities, is simply not in that niche.

    Let us remember that there are many types of customer. There are real world customers with money to spend who do not fit into the urban "they’re the sort of people who have 45 grand to spend or, more likely, can run to the chunky monthlies on a PCP scheme". Other car companies can and do sell SUVs to other types of customer. It strikes me that Land Rover might well benefit from re-broadening its customer base (which the Pretender cannot and will not do since it is effectively indistinguishable from all the other technology-loaded SUVs in the LR line up) since it reportedly isn't doing too well with its current customer base.



    Ah yes, the common resort of the unthinking fanboy: A generic, strawman, The "deluded 1950s yeomanry fantasy" to which he so emotively refers is not, in fact, a fantasy. There are real car companies selling real cars to real customers that fulfil the roles and capabilities of the classic Defender and its precursors. There is real money there that, it would seem, LR badly needs. Re-broadening outside of their current upper middle class urban demographic might have been a saving grace. As it stands, the Pretender might well sell but, I am sure, at the expense of other LR models, doing nothing overall to help LR I suspect.

    In short, it strikes me that LR have had their day. They've jumped the shark. Sure, they've jumped the shark on a technologically marvellous vehicle with 85 new ways to go wrong in the middle of a field (or on the High Street on the way to pick up the kids) but, all the same, the shark has been jumped.

    I predict it's only downhill from here. I'd love to be wrong. I bet I won't be.

    By the way, where is the Pretender made?




    P.S. I've owned a Land Rover in the past and would have loved to buy a genuinely updated Defender at the right price point one day. Does anyone think that such a vehicle would not have sold well and, indeed, for a profit (if LR's manufacturing was as competent as it surely has to be in order to survive)? But unless I can stretch to a FF RR, none of the other models in the range appeal to me as things stand: They lack clear differentiation. The Pretender offers nothing new or different, clever and nice though it is. If they had called the the 'New Discovery' it would have made way more sense than calling it a Defender.
    And "meaningless insult to those who take a broader and perhaps less limited view." Like Fanboy? perhaps? Ha ha ha. I thought it was the naysayers taking the 'limited view' tbh.

    However I predict it will sell like hot cakes. Does it matter where it's made? I mean enough people on here buy foreign made cars and don't seem to mind.
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.

  5. #55
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    And "meaningless insult to those who take a broader and perhaps less limited view." Like Fanboy? perhaps? Ha ha ha.
    Is "fanboy" an insult? Interesting. But if you do perceive it to be an insult, surely it is only fair to level it at someone who so readily and viciously tried to discredit those who might disagree with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I thought it was the naysayers taking the 'limited view' tbh.
    No. What you call "naysayers" are taking the broader and more intelligent view, taking more than merely the merits of the vehicle alone into account.

    The vehicle has many merits and I don't doubt it overall (although it has to be said that 85 new ways to go wrong is certainly not a merit). It's just that the vehicle cannot be meaningfully considered in a vacuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    However I predict it will sell like hot cakes.
    Yes, it probably will. But primarily I think at the cost of other LR models. As I went on to say, if LR had called it the "New Discovery" then that would have made sense. As a new vehicle amongst the existing lineup it will be better called the "Land Rover Cannibal".

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Does it matter where it's made? I mean enough people on here buy foreign made cars and don't seem to mind.
    Of course it matters. Buying a foreign car is buying a foreign car. A proper Land Rover is nevertheless a British car -- otherwise why not just buy any one of many other foreign SUVs.

    Remember that there is no magic that says that Land rover has to be successful. The perceived Britishness of Land rovers is undoubtedly a key factor in their success in the luxury market. But if the vehicles are no longer British-made, then it will devalue them (no matter how well they might be made otherwise).
    Last edited by markrlondon; 11th September 2019 at 17:39.

  6. #56
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    What they have done with the defender is a lot like what Rolex have done with the Sub over the years. What started as something for utility use has morphed into a luxury product, whilst those who still require something to do the original task have long since moved onto something else to do the job.
    The £45k price tag for the defender is not that surprising, I think the old one was about £35k or so before it was discontinued. I doubt the price of this will deter many potential buyers, in the same way that the SubC is still selling well despite vast increases in price!



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  7. #57
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    The £45k price tag for the defender is not that surprising, I think the old one was about £35k or so before it was discontinued. I doubt the price of this will deter many potential buyers
    You'll note that it wasn't the price that caused me to criticise LR. The issue to my mind is that within the model lineup the LR Cannibal (as I'd like to call it) seems to offer no new differentiation.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    in the same way that the SubC is still selling well despite vast increases in price!
    Again, price isn't the issue imo. It's differentiation (or lack thereof). Rolex's watches all have something of a house style but usually don't generally impinge on one another's model-mindspace.

  8. #58
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Is "fanboy" an insult? Interesting. But if you do perceive it to be an insult, surely it is only fair to level it at someone who so readily and viciously tried to discredit those who might disagree with him.


    "readily and viciously tried to discredit those who might disagree with him" Try to cheer up, it was hardly vicious, just quoting something that I found funny tbh. And most of the 'pc-bound pundits' referred to probably aren't looking to buy anything anyway.


    No. What you call "naysayers" are taking the broader and more intelligent view, taking more than merely the merits of the vehicle alone into account.

    The vehicle has many merits and I don't doubt it overall (although it has to be said that 85 new ways to go wrong is certainly not a merit). It's just that the vehicle cannot be meaningfully considered in a vacuum.

    If it's a good motor it's a good motor, can't see why running it down when it's hardly touched the tarmac is taking the broader and more intelligent view. Seems more like the narrow minded and biased view to me.



    Yes, it probably will. But primarily I think at the cost of other LR models. As I went on to say, if LR had called it the "New Discovery" then that would have made sense. As a new vehicle amongst the existing lineup it will be better called the "Land Rover Cannibal".

    I don't agree. As a 'Defender' it will be bought by many estates for farm managers and many other companies who want something a bit more rugged. Friend who has a scaffolding firm is already talking about getting one as is another friend who is in property services and management. Neither wanted a Disco. Yes, image will play a part and not everyone can afford one.


    Of course it matters. Buying a foreign car is buying a foreign car. A proper Land Rover is nevertheless a British car -- otherwise why not just buy any one of many other foreign SUVs.

    Remember that there is no magic that says that Land rover has to be successful. The perceived Britishness of Land rovers is undoubtedly a key factor in their success in the luxury market. But if the vehicles are no longer British-made, then it will devalue them (no matter how well they might be made otherwise).

    I think people will still view them as a 'British' brand even if they are not made in the UK. My Jag was built in Austria but it's still a Jag as far as I'm concerned. The old Defenders had parts made abroad in them. Unless of course time stopped in 1975 and anything afterwards 'just isn't 'British' old chap!!'
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.

  9. #59
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    Simply put, I view the new Defender as the death knell of the D5 as we know it. That will now go further upscale - price, 8 seats, luxury spec etc - and hopefully improve in the looks department. It (the new D5) will not impinge on the RR in the overall line-up as that will retain the cache of it’s own brand name and the super luxury spec. Job done for JLR - ridding itself of the D4 fail which was the current D5. Mark, I agree, cannibalisation to a certain degree, but with evolution of the overall breed in the corporate mind. Give me a simple G Wagen any day!
    Last edited by Skyman; 11th September 2019 at 18:37.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by stuie-t View Post
    What they have done with the defender is a lot like what Rolex have done with the Sub over the years. What started as something for utility use has morphed into a luxury product, whilst those who still require something to do the original task have long since moved onto something else to do the job.
    The £45k price tag for the defender is not that surprising, I think the old one was about £35k or so before it was discontinued. I doubt the price of this will deter many potential buyers, in the same way that the SubC is still selling well despite vast increases in price!



    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    But LR wants us to believe that the new Defender is better than the old one. Rolex never claimed that their newer models are better than the old ones.

    The Defender has been around for several generations. Everybody knows a Defender since he/she was a little kid. With that knowledge comes the less-than-perfectly-built reputation of the LR. Again, motivated by the experience of some sort. Extrapolating those experiences onto the new Defender with '85 new ways to fail' causes the cynical comments.

    LR will have a hard time to convince people that they've managed to overcome all sorts of problems. The new Defender needs to be in Japanese/Korean territory when it comes to build-quality and reliability. Without that, it will only 'eat' the Discovery's market share.

    Imagine: you're in rural Scotland, miles away from anything. The old Defender has been used for all sorts of farming-jobs. You're in town for a new car: a Toyota LandCruiser, let's say an Isuzu or a new a Defender with 85 computers...

    Then the whole Hammond show I posted earlier. If you want to give sales a boost, you need one of GT guys to drive your car - that will help selling the car. Now, everybody scratches his head and thinks: "Why isn't he driving the bl@@dy thing!? And is only hip-hopping around the cars?"
    Last edited by thieuster; 11th September 2019 at 18:46.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    But LR wants us to believe that the new Defender is better than the old one. Rolex never claimed that their newer models are better than the old ones.
    I think you’ll find that Rolex have claimed the new models are better than the old, whether it be new movement, ceramic bezel, improved spring etc.

    I know people have a soft spot for the old defender but it was a terrible car by modern standards. My folks have a 110 which they have had since new in 1995, I know how it drives and how often it has to be fixed!


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  12. #62
    I see they're doing a "farmers" spec model

  13. #63
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Usually you bring a new model to market to fill a gap in your current line up, JLRs gap was at the 'utility end' of their model range, a few nods to the past don't really 'cut the mustard' all JLR have done is keep the name alive, perhaps they'll have luck better next time.
    Suzuki at one end of the scale and G-Wagon at the other have in their own ways carried off evolution far more successfully.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  14. #64
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    it was hardly vicious
    I most certainly do describe it as explicitly, knowingly and intentionally vicious; it was designed to use emotions to pre-emptively discredit views that oppose it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    If it's a good motor it's a good motor
    Sure but as I have pointed out, whilst it may well be a good vehicle in and of itself, to think that that's all there is to it is over-simplistic. For the reasons I explained at length, being "a good motor" is just not enough in the current context.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    can't see why running it down when it's hardly touched the tarmac is taking the broader and more intelligent view.
    Read what I wrote. I made a number of points as to why I thought the vehicle is superfluous as things stand and I went beyond "it's a good motor". So yes, I did take a broader view and more intelligent view.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    As a 'Defender' it will be bought by many estates for farm managers and many other companies who want something a bit more rugged.
    You mean just like the Discovery in the vast majority of cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Friend who has a scaffolding firm is already talking about getting one as is another friend who is in property services and management. Neither wanted a Disco. Yes, image will play a part and not everyone can afford one.
    We'll see if he gets one. If he is buying it purely for image then a Land Rover Pretender might well be a poor choice. It's is pretending to be something it isn't really... is that the image he wants to portray?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I think people will still view them as a 'British' brand even if they are not made in the UK.
    I think not. Why would they when it would be fundamentally untrue. When people realise that they are not really British then... well, they are no longer regarded as British. The difficult to define shine of perceived Britishness wears off. It just becomes fake British.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    My Jag was built in Austria but it's still a Jag as far as I'm concerned.
    For sure it's still a Jaguar. But it's unreservedly not British. It's just another foreign-made car. There are lots of good ones to choose from. But the Jaguar no longer benefits from the positive image that many people still have (rightly or wrongly!) of Britishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    The old Defenders had parts made abroad in them.
    Parts are not the car as a whole. Your Jaguar isn't British, even if perhaps some of the parts might have been made in the UK.

    Just like genuinely Swiss Made matters (even if parts are made outside of Switzerland), genuine British made also matters to buyers (even if parts are made outside the UK).

  15. #65
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Suzuki at one end of the scale and G-Wagon at the other have in their own ways carried off evolution far more successfully.
    I think so.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    I see they're doing a "farmers" spec model
    Ah! Interesting. Any details?

    Menno

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Ah! Interesting. Any details?

    Menno
    Only what's on Friendface......


  18. #68
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    I see they're doing a "farmers" spec model
    Really!? I had a quick DDG but couldn't see anything about one.

    I did see this, though:

    https://www.carmag.co.za/news/rumour...bakkie-report/
    A fresh report out of Australia claims Land Rover has scrapped plans to build a double-cab bakkie version of the new Defender.

    Speaking to motoring.com.au after the new model’s reveal at the Frankfurt motor show, a “senior source” within the Jaguar Land Rover group said plans for the Defender range to again include a pick-up had been abandoned.

    “Why would you buy a dual-cab [bakkie] when you see what you can put in the back of one of these? This is already a [bakkie] with a roof,” the insider told the Australian publication.

    Earlier reports had suggested the Defender bakkie would arrive either late in 2020 or early the following year, based on the as-yet-unrevealed long-wheelbase 130 variant.

    In August 2019, a Jaguar Land Rover executive told another Australian publication there was “no plan” to include a bakkie body style in the new Defender range, although admitted it was “being considered”.

  19. #69
    Anyone connected with JLR to a certain degree will know that what's currently happening with the whole model range and the new Defender has been coming for years. JLR forgot the farming community ages ago and I've written many posts about this on the forum about it..
    Its all a numbers games guys end of.
    Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 11th September 2019 at 19:24.

  20. #70
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    Looks like Lego have already brought a Technic version out!

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...e-lego-technic
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Really!? I had a quick DDG but couldn't see anything about one.

    I did see this, though:

    https://www.carmag.co.za/news/rumour...bakkie-report/
    https://www.facebook.com/96228284757...704758?sfns=mo

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Or asking Seiko to make both Grand Seiko and Seiko 5. Not so odd afterall, is it.
    That’s a good analogy because Grand Seiko has certainly suffered from the Seiko connection. People still say ‘how much for a Seiko?!’. They’ve recently undergone a rebrand to further differentiate them from regular Seiko.

    There’s no problem with one company selling a range of items aimed at different markets. VW Group make a Seat Leon and Bugatti Veyron. What they don’t try to do is launch a cheaper car under the Bugatti brand. Like TATA, they have other brands for that.

    If I was consulting JLR on branding I’d have suggested that there was a marked difference between Land Rover and Range Rover. Where the former was a utilitarian brand and the latter a luxury one. What we’ve currently got is a bit of a mix, a spec’d up Land Rover Discovery is as expensive and luxurious as a Range Rover. Cars under both badges aim at the same audience, so I fully agree that a basic Defender would have been a popular vehicle, but I can see why they haven’t gone down that path.

  23. #73
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Thanks.

  24. #74
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    Not for me that, even if I had the money for one

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    That’s a good analogy because Grand Seiko has certainly suffered from the Seiko connection. People still say ‘how much for a Seiko?!’.
    Maybe, although I've never really believed it. It seems to me that the people who say "how much for a Seiko?" also say "how much for a Rolex/Omega/Longines", or whatever.

    To better illustrate my point, I perhaps should have said "Seiko to make both Grand Seiko and Lorus".

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    They’ve recently undergone a rebrand to further differentiate them from regular Seiko.
    I don't think so. They already have Credor that more completely differentiates one of their luxury brands from Seiko. Grand Seikos, even if with the new GS/Grand Seiko dial, are still proudly, clearly and explicitly just Seikos. (Not that this should necessarily apply to LR, I feel certain that Seiko are sort of proud that people outside of Japan under-estimate them).

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    There’s no problem with one company selling a range of items aimed at different markets. VW Group make a Seat Leon and Bugatti Veyron. What they don’t try to do is launch a cheaper car under the Bugatti brand. Like TATA, they have other brands for that.
    This is a good point. It certainly strengthens my point that LR could have broadened their market with an actual Utility vehicle with the right branding. Of course, "Defender" could have worked as a new brand with an old name. E.g. "Our new Defender brand signals our blah heritage blah commitment blah all markets blah a Land Rover for everone blah". This branding model already works with 'Range Rover' (which no longer refers to a single model), so why not with 'Defender'.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    If I was consulting JLR on branding I’d have suggested that there was a marked difference between Land Rover and Range Rover. Where the former was a utilitarian brand and the latter a luxury one. What we’ve currently got is a bit of a mix, a spec’d up Land Rover Discovery is as expensive and luxurious as a Range Rover. Cars under both badges aim at the same audience, so I fully agree that a basic Defender would have been a popular vehicle, but I can see why they haven’t gone down that path.
    Good differentiation there. I too can see why they have gone down the path they have but, as I have written, I think it amounts to an error.
    Last edited by markrlondon; 11th September 2019 at 19:52.

  26. #76
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Looks like Lego have already brought a Technic version out!

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/m...e-lego-technic
    Hehe, very nice.

    Somewhat ironically, the Lego one looks more like the classic Defender than the Pretender does!

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Hehe, very nice.

    Somewhat ironically, the Lego one looks more like the classic Defender than the Pretender does!
    Looks like Lego understand Landrover customers better than Landrover do.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  28. #78
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    I most certainly do describe it as explicitly, knowingly and intentionally vicious; it was designed to use emotions to pre-emptively discredit views that oppose it.
    Oh dear, I do feel sorry for you then if you thought that my rather humorous quote was 'vicious'.

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post


    Sure but as I have pointed out, whilst it may well be a good vehicle in and of itself, to think that that's all there is to it is over-simplistic. For the reasons I explained at length, being "a good motor" is just not enough in the current context.


    I think it will be good enough. It will fit into a niche currently missing from the JLR lineup, ie the one previously filled by the Defender. To say it's not a 'Defender' because it is not the same as the previous model and more like a Disco is missing the point I believe. The modern version of the Mini bears little resemblance to the original concept but it's still a Mini. Just because the new Defender is a modern vehicle doesn't take away it's utilitarian capabilities. At once people are moaning the loss of the old slow, noisy, uncomfortable, unreliable, rust prone Defender and at the same time moaning that the new model has been redesigned and improved for the 2020's.


    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Read what I wrote. I made a number of points as to why I thought the vehicle is superfluous as things stand and I went beyond "it's a good motor". So yes, I did take a broader view and more intelligent view.
    .
    Thanks, I did read what you wrote. As I said above, I don't think it is 'superfluous', I don't agree with the 'points' you made. In your opinion perhaps, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    You mean just like the Discovery in the vast majority of cases.
    No I don't, I don't think the Discovery is currently filling that niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post

    We'll see if he gets one. If he is buying it purely for image then a Land Rover Pretender might well be a poor choice. It's is pretending to be something it isn't really... is that the image he wants to portray?
    Not purely for image at all. We can leave that for the 'Tomb Raider' and roof tent at the weekend brigade I think. He does go on site quite often. And you say it's 'pretending to be something it isn'y really'. What do you base that on? A couple of reviews? Do you question it's offroad ability? Doesn't it look 'utilitarian' enough? Perhaps the people who use this type of vehicle will prefer something a little more comfortable and with a few mod cons.

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    I think not. Why would they when it would be fundamentally untrue. When people realise that they are not really British then... well, they are no longer regarded as British. The difficult to define shine of perceived Britishness wears off. It just becomes fake British.



    For sure it's still a Jaguar. But it's unreservedly not British. It's just another foreign-made car. There are lots of good ones to choose from. But the Jaguar no longer benefits from the positive image that many people still have (rightly or wrongly!) of Britishness.



    Parts are not the car as a whole. Your Jaguar isn't British, even if perhaps some of the parts might have been made in the UK.

    Just like genuinely Swiss Made matters (even if parts are made outside of Switzerland), genuine British made also matters to buyers (even if parts are made outside the UK).
    Strange thing is I see a lot of Minis with Union Flags painted on the roof, not so many with the flag of the Netherlands or Austria.
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.

  29. #79
    Grand Master Glamdring's Avatar
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    Anyone else notice that LR gave the same new Defenders to the little and not so little motoring websites to discuss but not use? Top Gear, Hammond, and a few others have all had their say today on the same two vehicles in the same setting. None of them got to drive them. A 110 and a 90.

  30. #80
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Oh dear, I do feel sorry for you then if you thought that my rather humorous quote was 'vicious'.
    I know you were quoting it for humorous reasons but the text you quoted was undoubtedly vicious in the terms I described it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    It will fit into a niche currently missing from the JLR lineup, ie the one previously filled by the Defender.
    I disagree. It doesn't fit into this niche at all, not in any way, shape, or form. It is a niche that Land Rover has clearly chosen to abandon. The Pretender is about marking to townies and has nothing to do with fulfilling a primarily utility niche.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    To say it's not a 'Defender' because it is not the same as the previous model and more like a Disco is missing the point I believe.
    It certainly doesn't need to be "the same". But it isn't a replacement of the Defender in any way, shape, or form.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Just because the new Defender is a modern vehicle doesn't take away it's utilitarian capabilities.
    I agree. There are many modern utility vehicles. It's just that this isn't one of them. I'm sure it is capable but then so are the rest of the Land Rover range. As I say, it offers nothing whatsoever that is not already covered by other models in the LR lineup, except for a name. A name alone means nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    At once people are moaning the loss of the old slow, noisy, uncomfortable, unreliable, rust prone Defender and at the same time moaning that the new model has been redesigned and improved for the 2020's.
    Yes, some people are doing this but it's not something I've said: It is not the subject of my criticism. In comparison, Mercedes have continuously updated the very comparable G-Wagen without losing its identity but Land Rover were apparently incapable of doing the same. Instead they produced, as I have said too many times already, an alternative Discovery. I.e. A model that is very nice but doesn't add any broadening appeal or differentiation to the range.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    No I don't, I don't think the Discovery is currently filling that niche.
    I am surprised. Oh well, opinions differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    And you say it's 'pretending to be something it isn'y really'. What do you base that on? A couple of reviews?
    Everything about it: Its looks, its ridiculous over-complication (as I said, 58 new ways to go wrong), and, not least, the comments by Land Rover staff who essentially poopooed the idea of pickup versions or genuine utility market versions. I.e. Taking all of it into account (not reviews, interestingly enough), it is crystal clear that Land Rover are paying little more than lip service to the utility segment. They are addressing it just enough to be able to make the non-utility buyers they would really like to attract think that it's a cool, functional utility-driven SUV (when it is nothing of the sort).

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Do you question it's offroad ability?
    Not at all. But then I don't question the offroad capability of the Discovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Perhaps the people who use this type of vehicle will prefer something a little more comfortable and with a few mod cons.
    Quite so. Discovery again. Or, as of now, Discovery or Pretender, but mostly not both. Cannibalising sales, as I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Strange thing is I see a lot of Minis with Union Flags painted on the roof, not so many with the flag of the Netherlands or Austria.
    Err... so what? What do you think that means?

    I'll answer that question right now: The Union Flag is a very popular fashion symbol. As I said, Britishness has a coolness associated with it in many people's minds. So why not put a Union Flag in the roof -- it looks cool. It encourages sales.

    But none of that makes a non-British car magically British. Your Jaguar could have a Union Flag painted on its roof but it still wouldn't be British.

    And when people discover that what they thought was really British isn't in fact British (despite it perhaps having a Union Flag painted on its roof) then the shine begins to tarnish for them. They feel conned, and the value is diminished for them. It might not seem like a problem in the short term but it is definitely a problem in the longer term.

  31. #81
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    Anyone else notice that LR gave the same new Defenders to the little and not so little motoring websites to discuss but not use? Top Gear, Hammond, and a few others have all had their say today on the same two vehicles in the same setting. None of them got to drive them. A 110 and a 90.
    Perhaps one of the 85 new ways to go wrong went wrong. ;-)

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    Anyone else notice that LR gave the same new Defenders to the little and not so little motoring websites to discuss but not use? Top Gear, Hammond, and a few others have all had their say today on the same two vehicles in the same setting. None of them got to drive them. A 110 and a 90.
    Official “reveal” only it is then. Just strange to see it in a forest / off road environment and yet nobody can drive it?

    As an aside, I think the new Defender (which I do like by the way - but it’s not a Defender in essence) will be a direct replacement for the new Discovery.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the new Disco is quickly phased out, especially as my brother in law recently received £500 back from JLR as an “apology” for the number of times their new Discovery was in the workshop.

    Engine light on more than off, not impressed by the vehicle, or the cheque for that matter!
    Last edited by Chinnock; 12th September 2019 at 07:21.

  33. #83
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    I’ve seen some gorgeous old Lannys in Galicia and north Portugal these past days.
    even drove past an old Rover garage yesterday they like British.
    Farmers here in Portugal use mostly cheap pickups with a custom back.

  34. #84
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    My initial view: Hate it...

    Todays view: I am warming to that...

    2 weeks time: I am sure I will want one...

    3 months into ownership: TBC!

  35. #85
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    I have finally managed to watch a couple of the videos on youtube.

    Heart says - WANT

    Head Says - It's a Land Rover with 85 ECU's.............

  36. #86
    Outside Coutts in Strand




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  37. #87
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    I know you were quoting it for humorous reasons but the text you quoted was undoubtedly vicious in the terms I described it.
    Like I said earlier, I feel for you if you see it that way. Perhaps taking things you read online a little less seriously might help. You never felt it enough to comment on the original post I quoted though. Maybe you didn't read it.


    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post


    I disagree. It doesn't fit into this niche at all, not in any way, shape, or form. It is a niche that Land Rover has clearly chosen to abandon. The Pretender is about marking to townies and has nothing to do with fulfilling a primarily utility niche.



    It certainly doesn't need to be "the same". But it isn't a replacement of the Defender in any way, shape, or form.



    I agree. There are many modern utility vehicles. It's just that this isn't one of them. I'm sure it is capable but then so are the rest of the Land Rover range. As I say, it offers nothing whatsoever that is not already covered by other models in the LR lineup, except for a name. A name alone means nothing.


    Why do you think it doesn't fit this niche? What doesn't it do that it should? If as you say the Discovery filled that niche, and the Defender is covering the same area as the Defender then by your admission it must. It does look a much different product to a Discovery from what I've seen and read.

    Perhaps in the quest for a 'proper' Defender a bare interior, less comfortable seats, a harsh rattly ride, a chassis that rots quicker than a Lancia, poor reliability, and a bit more macho image would suffice?
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post


    Yes, some people are doing this but it's not something I've said: It is not the subject of my criticism. In comparison, Mercedes have continuously updated the very comparable G-Wagen without losing its identity but Land Rover were apparently incapable of doing the same. Instead they produced, as I have said too many times already, an alternative Discovery. I.e. A model that is very nice but doesn't add any broadening appeal or differentiation to the range.


    Don't remember seeing many farmers or companies doing site work using G-Wagens, if you really want a toy for the rich that hits the mark very nicely! And tbh I don't think trying to update the old defender would have been either possible or desirable. The self same Landie purists would be howling about how the updating had ruined the Defender. Better they stick with the older models with the 'character' they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post

    Everything about it: Its looks, its ridiculous over-complication (as I said, 58 new ways to go wrong), and, not least, the comments by Land Rover staff who essentially poopooed the idea of pickup versions or genuine utility market versions. I.e. Taking all of it into account (not reviews, interestingly enough), it is crystal clear that Land Rover are paying little more than lip service to the utility segment. They are addressing it just enough to be able to make the non-utility buyers they would really like to attract think that it's a cool, functional utility-driven SUV (when it is nothing of the sort).


    Well looks are pretty subjective, a lot of people like the way it looks! All modern vehicles are 'over complicated' when compared to the vehicles of yesteryear. Unfortunately more complication goes hand in hand with progress, emissions regulations and customer demands. Otherwise we'd all be driving around in A40's and Westminsters (except farmers in their 88" pickups of course!) How many pick-up versions of the Landy did you ever see? I don't think they were as popular as you think and as such wouldn't be worth producing. And what does it have to have (or not have) do be a 'genuine utility version' ? I'd be interested to know what it would need or not to fit your definition.
    Buyers are buyers at the end of the day, probably not many farmers bought Tomb Raider defenders either!

    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    Err... so what? What do you think that means?

    I'll answer that question right now: The Union Flag is a very popular fashion symbol. As I said, Britishness has a coolness associated with it in many people's minds. So why not put a Union Flag in the roof -- it looks cool. It encourages sales.

    But none of that makes a non-British car magically British. Your Jaguar could have a Union Flag painted on its roof but it still wouldn't be British.

    And when people discover that what they thought was really British isn't in fact British (despite it perhaps having a Union Flag painted on its roof) then the shine begins to tarnish for them. They feel conned, and the value is diminished for them. It might not seem like a problem in the short term but it is definitely a problem in the longer term.
    My point was that people don't really care. They associate the Mini with Britishness, even though it was built abroad by a foreign owned company. Hence the Union Flags plastered all over them. Nothing wrong with associating Britishness with coolness in my opinion. As for mine, I liked it so I bought it. The make wasn't a deal maker or breaker tbh. (and it doesn't have any Union Flags stuck on it btw )
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.

  38. #88
    It looks like its had a splash from the same ugly stick as the Kia Soul.

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