Reply With QuoteApparently many do, for the reasons you stated; there was a thread on this a year or so ago if you fancy digging
At service.
I obviously am not talking about highly finished and complex movements, but your standard ETA and the like and maybe even the basic Rolex movements must cost less to produce than the cost of labour involved in a full movement service?
Why don’t they just pop a new movement in? They could still charge too much like they do now but maybe their margin could be even larger?
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Apparently many do, for the reasons you stated; there was a thread on this a year or so ago if you fancy digging
Short answer is they often do.
The cost of a Rolex or Omega movement is far in excess of the service price - you can see the charged in extreme cases.
Most buyers of ETA movements can't get enough of them, and I would suggest charge more proportionately selling a new watch with one in.
A few of the brands support watchmaking, and just having the movements swapped out wouldn't help the industry much.
I'm sure for cheaper brands, that still use in-house movements it would make the most sense.
It's just a matter of time...
I don’t expect most would agree but, personally I would rather keep my movement especially if it’s been a trusty companion for years. It’s just an ocd thing I guess but take my skx for instance, it’s been to almost every state in the USA with me on my travels and I would definitely pay for it to be serviced rather than a new one which (should be) cheaper. Attached you could say
I believe Tudor now replace the movement with a refurbished one at service and send the old one back somewhere for cleaning. I'd be interested to see a list of brands which do this and which that don't.
So in theory your regularly serviced well cared for movement could be replaced with something a lot worseOriginally Posted by Kallang
Yes I can see the point of this, if the watch and you have a history, is it truly the same watch with a new movement fitted? No it's not. It is definitely cheaper to fit a new 7S26 movement yes, but it's just not the same.I don’t expect most would agree but, personally I would rather keep my movement especially if it’s been a trusty companion for years. It’s just an ocd thing I guess but take my skx for instance, it’s been to almost every state in the USA with me on my travels and I would definitely pay for it to be serviced rather than a new one which (should be) cheaper. Attached you could say
I think Panerai also do this,they just replace the part that has the movement number into the new movement of the same type....
If i have a movement that has proved itself reliable over many years, why would i throw away that reliability and earned trust for a new untested, untrusted movement?
There's a significant price that most put on reliability, particularly over time.
Also, why contribute to the disposable/throw everything away culture that we currently have? if something is working and will continue to do so with a small bit of work, why throw it away?
Its just waste? waste of materials, waste of time, waste of resources, and just wasteful in general.
Finally, many people have sentimental attachment to a particular watch. The more parts that are replaced, the less of that original watch is left.
Replace the whole movement on one service, maybe replace a bezel on the next service, after a while, how much of the original watch is left? is it even the original watch you valued so much?
Think triggers broom that he had for 20 years, which has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles.
I had a bicycle frame custom made for me in 1979. I've still got it. Of course, I've replaced all the components (wheels, drivetrain, etc.). Oh, and I replaced the forks (carbon fibre forks instead of Reynolds 531). Hmm, the top tube was replaced a long time ago after a crash. And the seat tube was replaced (not even with Reynolds 531) a few years ago. I think that the bottom bracket isn't actually the one it came with. At least the rear triangle is original, although it has been spread to take wider rear sprockets. And, I still think of it as the bicycle I got in 1979. :)
Best wishes,
Bob
Apparently significant parts of the human body regenerate at quite a rate too.
Triggers watch.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Believe based on what information or source?
Trigger's watch? I don't think that Roy Rogers' horse had a watch, so it must be some other Trigger.
Best wishes,
Bob
I honestly don’t see the point in saving the original movement of something so cheap, it’s not seen and if you didn’t know it had been replaced then you’d be none the wiser. On vintage high value watches it becomes a different story, but an sky may increase in value but not by much ever as there are so many out there.I don’t expect most would agree but, personally I would rather keep my movement especially if it’s been a trusty companion for years. It’s just an ocd thing I guess but take my skx for instance, it’s been to almost every state in the USA with me on my travels and I would definitely pay for it to be serviced rather than a new one which (should be) cheaper. Attached you could say
Keeping stuff original cosmetically is ok but unseen internals on low value items is just not an issue, ignorance is bliss, I would much rather an sky with a new movement than an old one.
I’d like to know too. If this is true it would make me steer clear of Tudor.
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You're only considering resale value, not movement trustworthiness.
If a movement has been reliable for years, it has earned a level of trustworthiness.
A new movement doesn't have that, it's unproven.
So even a cheap movement if proven reliable is worth servicing and keeping over a new unproven movement.
If you search on Google you'll find numerous threads on watch forums about it. Used to be speculation that Tudor were merely taking in faulty examples of their in-house movements for study (though I think people were a little too wishful in believing their own speculation). Now apparently it is policy for all movements at service. No official confirmation from Tudor though so we will all come to our own conclusions about it's truth.
Ah I see, no facts then just wild internet speculation ...
I can’t imagine this is true. They’re basically changing ‘your’ movement for another one, and a refinished one to boot.That sounds extremely dodgy.
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No smoke without fire. I would encourage you to do a search yourself and see where the speculation has arisen from and make your own mind. I cannot say that it is Tudor policy without official confirmation from them. But there is enough on the forums to turn me off buying a Tudor, in particular their in house watches, because of the doubt the speculation gives me on their service practices.
I think it’s inevitable that this will become more commonplace in the future, movements will be exchanged for a rebuilt or new one.
As for the cheap Seiko and Miyota mechanical movements, I’m loathe to trust the new replacements. Quality control isn’t their strongpoint, a new movement might’ve been lubricated poorly and the only way to be sure it’s right us to strip it, clean everything and reassemble it! Not what people want to hear, but it’s true, I’ve had new ones that didn’t run well.
Sorry, but I don’t believe this to be correct. Why not provide the links to the sources that lead you to your speculation.
I will post some quotes and links for anybody who is intrigued enough to enquire but not enough to research the question using their search engine of choice.
Like I said, without confirmation from Tudor it is speculation. But not all speculation is equally dross. Some are wisps of smoke that have meandered their way down. Distorted and faint, yet still evidence of a fire that has happened elsewhere.
This large thread starts with somebody's experience of having a Tudor repaired under warranty and discovering Tudor's policy of movement replacement for their in-house watches. As it is so large you will forgive me if I only quote a few lines. I trust people can click on the link and read the thread, in its entirety if they wish, at their leisure.
What we all really want to know though is if Tudor replace movements at routine service for running watches out of warranty. This poster's situation is different so I do not think that it answers the question. But, it does put questions in my mind about what exactly is Tudor's repair and service policy.And here is a summary of my conversation with the same rep(manager) while memory is still fresh, the giant caveat here being all of the below are true AS FAR AS THEY KNOW:
- Yes, according to the policy that they have received, repair of Tudor in-house movements is to be done via movement replacement.
- This policy applies not only to North Flag, but for Pelagos and Black Bay with in-house movments as well.
- ETA-based Tudor watches are serviceable at local RCS branches, so they are not subject to this replacement policy.
- (Again, as far as they know) this replacement policy is not a temporary exception but rather something that has been put into place.
You will find multiple examples of people on different forums reporting their own experiences:
I would still not be convinced based on these accounts. There are too many variables and unknowns in each circumstance to conclude that Tudor exchange their movements routinely.Down below, the "necessary service/parts" section stated: "Tudor service with movement exchange." All of this was covered by the warranty
Things get a little more concrete when a prolific forum member who says he is an Omega qualified watchmaker (no, I have no way of verifying that too) says this:
And this watchmaker who is a member of the British Horological Institute (and wrote this informed critique on Rolex's new movement) said this:I know a watchmaker who works at a Rolex service center and if an in-house Tudor movement requires anything but regulation, the entire movement is replaced. This is the plan going forward as well, so not just a policy for watches under warranty. The movement that was removed will be sent back to somewhere to be refurbished, and then sent out to service centers around the globe to be installed as replacements in the future. More brands are using this model to speed up service times and centralize movement servicing.
These are a collection of posts which, first, report that Tudor will exchange whole movements in certain situations. My question would be whether movements are exchanged in all situations. We then have posts from watchmakers, one of them Rolex trained and appearing bona fide given he has published with the BHI, who state that movement exchange is going to be the default policy.We can use the new Tudor in-house caliber's as an example. These movements are technically superior to their ETA counterparts in every way. They have a substantially longer power-reserve, vastly superior time-keeping and the added bonus of a silicon balance spring.
Their downfall? They are movement exchange only. The whole thing is swapped out, serial number updated for COSC certificate and you are sent back a refurbished movement. Now, I don't like that, so I would try to pick up an ETA based Black Bay as I value serviceability of increased accuracy.
Is this hearing it from the horses mouth? Of course not. But I think that there is something there that is worth clarification and I am not sure if we will ever get a definitive response from Tudor. In its absence, I will stay away from its in-house watches which I imagine is all but impossible for an independent to service. I know it is a question of philosophy rather than practicality, but having the same movement ticking away, notwithstanding replacement of consumables or breakages, for the lifetime of a watch appeals. I do not want to spend Tudor-level money on a watch where I am in doubt if that romance will be afforded to me.
Inhouse movements are indeed only on replacement basis for Tudor, see picture.
Also Cartier does this with their ETA and Quartz movements. Unsure of their inhouse but they all go to Richemont RSC anyway.
free image upload
Just looks like a lot of speculation, second hand information and rumour mongering to me.
There maybe cases where an exchange is the best option but I don’t believe it to be policy or that it will force standard service costs to be in the region quoted in your link.
Had a feeling it would be Archer when you said this. Anyone who’s spent time on WUS knows he’s a very respected watch maker and this puts much more weight to it IMO.
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I believe 744ER is Rolex-trained from what he has said in other posts. I can only guess but the picture he has posted in the post immediately before yours looks like an account to access Rolex parts.
It is still no substitute for official clarification from Tudor but as I said not all speculation is equally ignorable. Anyway, what would a statement from Tudor really tell us when this industry is shrouded in smoke and mirrors? You have to make your mind up about what we can infer from this. My personal opinion is that one cannot dismiss this as merely false because definitive proof is lacking.
I have emailed the Rolex service centre at Kings Hill with the question. I’ll report back.
Changing the entire movement is now becoming the norm. Sad for watch repairers because there are rumours amongst their Swiss counterparts that there may be a complete shutdown of spare parts in the not too distant future. If the watch houses no longer produce parts for sale then wholesalers of parts can no longer demand them. The reasoning behind this is that most repair departments lose money because of the longer time required to service a movement and such repair departments exist purely to encourage brand loyalty. It makes economic sense to replace the entire movement, which can be quickly assembled by outside workshops employing partly trained staff, who I am told are paid at the Swiss minimum wage.
Problems arise of course when you have a classic or vintage watch which requires repair. Only a replacement watch will be offered. This was made clear to me last year when I visited Longines in St. Imier. An employee at Blancpain told me the same. Sad for both collectors of such beautiful watches and for young watchmakers entering the profession.
*As an aside, if Swatch no longer produce watch parts for sale, how can companies like Cousins win their case against them ? I'm not a lawyer but I imagine that Cousins could not force Swatch to manufacture spare parts for all and sundry.
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Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 2nd September 2019 at 19:42.
I’m stunned this is considered acceptable. They’re taking your watch, that you believe to be getting serviced and swapping your movement out for another, second hand refurbished one and giving it back to you under the pretence it’s been serviced! It’s utterly outrageous.
Kind of makes me wonder what the point is in this hobby if this becomes commonplace for all brands.
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Whoah Raff, I didn't say second hand. I think another poster did but I have never come across that practice. If you get to say Jaeger Lecoultre in Le Brassus, they will happily show you the making of watch parts. The mostly Italian machines can churn out a finished wheel in around five seconds. Plates made from discs of brass are fascinating to watch being made and then jewelled. The process is so fast these days that I reckon about 20 complete movements can be made and assembled in the time it takes to repair one movement. The economics makes corporate sense. They want you to buy new watches not waste their time fixing old ones. It is so sad. I am kind of glad that I am towards the twilight of my career. But happy that I still have loads of parts and contacts for them as well as many watches still to repair. I feel sorry for the newbies, who won't get access to spares in the future unless Swiss policy changes. Trouble is that Swiss independents don't have a strong voice.....so far !
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No it wasn’t you but somewhere else it was said the movements they use to replace are refurbished and your old one goes into ‘the system ‘ to get the same treatment for someone else’s. If it was swapped out for a brand new one it wouldn’t be so bad.
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Cartier inhouse movements often are made at another factory near Geneva, Roger Dubuis. Saw it with my own eyes... The cnc machines were spitting out the movement plates and I have seen the polishing of the different wheels there.Inhouse movements are indeed only on replacement basis for Tudor, see picture.
Also Cartier does this with their ETA and Quartz movements. Unsure of their inhouse but they all go to Richemont RSC anyway.
free image upload
The quartz chrono's at Cartier are often from Piaget (P212). Piaget is a part of groupe Richemont, so it doesn't surprise me.
A few years ago, my wife's P212 powered chrono had a broken part (lever for the crown). I sent it to the official repair center as the part wasn't available at first (later managed to acquire it). They quoted me 600 Eur for a replacement movement on a trade in base, as "the movement had an electrical problem".
Utter BS as my watchmaker had measured it beforehand and told me it was well lubricated and running within specs. You just couldn't set it anymore... We kind of pulled a prank on them with a drop of lacquer on the caseback. We sent it away with it and it came back with it. It hadn't been opened and they were giving me nonsense about a non existent electrical issue, but missed the broken lever (the whole crown came out if you tried to set the watch. I felt violated. Never trusted Richemont after that.
Last edited by Bernard; 2nd September 2019 at 21:22.
You hear so many horror stories about Richemont. Shame as JLC are a great brand.
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Last edited by RAFF; 2nd September 2019 at 21:33.
True. I was so disgusted, I have put the watch away and after a year or so found a parts donor on ebay that was used to scavenge the needed parts (watchmaker ended up replacing 2 parts iirc).
I will never ever buy anything new from Richemont. I will only use them where there is no alternative whatsoever to get what I need.
Watches are 90% emotion. The emotion I felt when discovering a large Swiss conglomerate was behaving like a con artist wasn't a nice one. I literally wished them a series of unfortunate events.
was behaving like a con artist wasn't a nice one. I literally wished them a series of unfortunate events.[/QUOTE]
When I worked at Blancpain I was in the MDs office when a guy arrived in a Rolls Royce to pick up his watch after repair.
The MD said "stick another 500 francs on that repair, he looks like he's loaded". We all laughed thinking it was a joke but when the guy came into the office it was added to his bill. Funny at the time maybe but I wondered if they thought of us watchmakers the same way in reverse.
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I definitely have not come across refurbishment of old movements so far. It wouldn't make economic sense. If refurbishing, they might as well put the movement back in the case it arrived in. And unless the independent workshops are now doing this under contract, the cost/time would be the same as a normal service. I will be in CH early October and will ask around and let you know.
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No
Thanks a lot, that’s very kind of you.
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Response from RSC in Kings Hill.
So the service is not the daft prices presented in the above links that included a new movement and they do service your movement.
Dear Mr Xxxx
Thank you for your email, please accept our apologies for the delay in replying.
We kindly advise that the current service price on a Tudor Black Bay is £215 exc VAT.
We are pleased to advise that the movement on your watch will be serviced.
Yours sincerely
Customer Relations Co-Ordinator, Kings Hill
ROLEX UK - 1 Jubilee Way, Kings Hill
West Malling, Kent
ME19 4NR
Tel: 01732 752 430
rolex.com
Good to hear. I was in the AD around the corner from work and told me the same. Ended up trying on the Black Bay 58 but they only had it on leather. Ended up giving them my deets for when they get one in with the bracelet
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Your movement will be serviced, and put into another watch ;) £215 the clue is in the price there... Takes just as long to service a Tudor MT movement as it does a Rolex 3135.
What was your question btw? ETA movements may be serviced but not in-house, his reply does not specify that.
Surely if I send a five year old watch to be serviced I do not get a 15 year old reconditioned one
It not a set of bakes or generic casting I’m sending back it’s something that I have grown to trust over a period of time.
Seems strange to me
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This is atrocious. I can see the financial benefit in the shorter term but it nevertheless undermines one of the key selling points of mechanical watches: That they can be repaired and maintained essentially forever.
The quicker we find a way of cost effectively manufacturing compatible parts in short production runs or one-offs, the better. 3D printing has got to be part of this.
It seems to me that bulk 'refurbishment' might be cost effective if literally done in bulk. I.e. All movement disassembled, parts individually tested for physical compliance (automatically perhaps), then rebuilt into new movements. This bulk, minimum-skill, approach could potentially save money.
Last edited by markrlondon; 5th September 2019 at 08:18.
I totally agree with your observations. When the Swiss watch industry was seriously under threat in the 1970s from cheaper foreign brands, many quartz, the watch repairer was essential for ensuring brand loyalty to the Swiss companies. The Swiss bent over backwards to supply anything the repairer asked for. Now that many Swiss watches have had multiple price increases and the industry thrived, we are being stabbed in the back by them.
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I had the pleasure of visiting two of these 'independent' companies a year or so ago. One was in St Imier, the other in France, across the border from La Chaux de Fonds. As far as I could observe, they were assembling new movements for brands I will not name, for fear of losing some of my own suppliers. I did not see any disassembly at all or refurbishment. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It could be contracted independents working from home or at smaller shops. This way I guess they get to keep using their skills and get parts they need !
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