Fortis Stratoliner / Lemania 5100 and a bit of aerospace history.

[alfat33]

I can not imagine this getting boring.
But then I have seven Cosmonauts....

Sent from my Aquaris V using tapatalk with thick fingers, declining eyesight and a small keypad.

And you managed to hold off posting until now?

Do you know anything about the period of the early ‘90s and how the collaboration between Fortis and the Russians came about? I’m trying to understand whether the Russians were genuinely looking for a watch for the Cosmonauts, and tried a few out including the Stratoliner. Or was the entire thing a marketing exercise initiated by Fortis, West and Andora?

[MarkB]

I have no idea how that connection came about. Would like to know though.
As commented some parts of the story are unclear. I believe there is a reason. If the information was public it would have been there. There is a reason the information is not there. The information Fortis is willing to share is in the book. I can only assume they do not want to share more detailed information.

The Cosmonauts started out with the 5100, white background day/date and white skeleton hands filled with Tritium, tachy bezel.
There was also a version with indices instead of numbers, do not know if that version preceded the above version or the other way round.
Then came the "standard" version 5100, all Tritium covered hands, tachy bezel.
The countdown bezel variant was called the pilot version in an old Fortis catalog, the count-up bezel was called the diver version by Fortis. The tachy bezel was called the cosmonaut version. The GMT/countdown bezel is not in that catalog, so I do not know that name.
Some time later the 5100 was replaced by the Valjoux version(s).

The reference numbers do not make it easier as different models sometimes share the same numbers.

The day/date and GMT models are spin-offs not used in space.

I asked a cosmonaut (the Dutch one) what the deal was with Fortis and he said they were given a Fortis Cosmonaut set during training. If you want you can use it. If you want to use a different watch you can but the Russians have to approve it.

I have the:
5100 pilot bezel (United Arab Emirates Air Force logo on back)
5100 Andora black dial (white dail and hands in the box )
Valjoux tachy version with a faded to grey dial
Blue dail GMT
the day/date
B-42 Ti day/date
B-42 Ti Valjoux crono

I am at work, so no pictures to back it up.

This is what I believe to be true, as a collector and space enthusiast.

[alfat33]

This is what I believe to be true, as a collector and space enthusiast.

Thanks for such good information, very interesting. You have a great collection and it would be nice to see pictures when you have time.

Was the astronaut you spoke to André Kuipers by any chance? I took a screenshot of a Youtube video of him boarding the flight to the ISS in 2011. Looks like he has a Fortis strapped to his wrist; hard to tell for certain of course. It would be a 7750 of course by this point.



I agree with you that if the Russians and Fortis wanted us to know how they got together, we would know by now. It would still be nice to know!

Thanks again for taking the time.

[Sinnlover]

The old Fortis sales catalogs had great pictures in them - mostly marketing guff but they are quite cool in their own way.
Unfortunately the earliest book I have is 2007 so they are all V7750 powered so can’t help with the ages of the earlier watches but the books contain lots of pictures of the watches being ‘used.’
Each book contains a synopsis of the company history on the last few pages.









And the price list from 2007

[Redwolf]

This thread has turned out to be a very informative trove of information on fortis B42 and others.
Thanks.

[alfat33]

The old Fortis sales catalogs had great pictures in them - mostly marketing guff but they are quite cool in their own way.

Great to see, thanks.

I couldn’t resist posting this press release from the European Space Agency website, 2006. It refers to a meeting where ‘the Head of the Federal Space Agency Anatoly Perminov held negotiations with the authorities of the Swiss Watch Company FORTIS.’

http://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_Perm...e_font/(print)

It includes the statement that:
‘In 1994 special space watches and accessories for them were developed for cosmonauts.

Active cooperation between Roscosmos and FORTIS began in 2001, while in 1992 FORTIS Watch Company started its cooperation with Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center, the Mission Control Center in Korolev (Moscow region) and some other organizations of Roscosmos.’

Maybe we can deduce that between 1992 and 1994 Fortis watches, most likely 571.10.142 Stratoliners, were being evaluated prior to the Official Cosmonauts watches being launched in 1994.

And this 1993 article in the magazine Schlusspunkt, in the Deutsche Museum archive, talks a bit about the Andora/Fortis/West/Glavcosmos (the international arm of Roscosmos) art project and what was in it. At one point it describes how the rocket payload included a dial from the ‘legendary Fortis watch developed for the NASA team and the first Apollo flight in 1963’. Would that have been a Spacematic maybe? Is that the first Fortis connection?

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/file...93/17-2-64.pdf

A lot of speculation I know.

[deepreddave]

Those sales catalog pics are excellent - thanks for posting those.

[witti]

Great thread about Fortis and space watches.
Let me add that they were (still are?) supplying air forces as well.
Many times they make limited runs with the logo of the squadrons on the dial.
Here is the one which I believe kicked off this tradition.
Fortis Flieger Professional tested and issued by the Hungarian Air Force


...and commemorating the cooperation:

[alfat33]

Great thread about Fortis and space watches.
Let me add that they were (still are?) supplying air forces as well.
Many times they make limited runs with the logo of the squadrons on the dial.
Here is the one which I believe kicked off this tradition.
Fortis Flieger Professional tested and issued by the Hungarian Air Force

Nice to see, thanks. MarkB mentions in an earlier post that he has a 5100 version with UAE airforce markings on the back. I’m sure there will be others, it was clearly a popular movement for aero applications, not just for Fortis.

I still don’t believe that the original Stratoliner was named for its suitability for high level reconnaissance flights though :).

[hughtrimble]

Has anyone found a suitable aftermarket bracelet for the Cosmonaut models? Or an OEM source for the originals?

So many for sale don't have the bracelet (presumably either bought on a strap or bracelet sold/lost).

[alfat33]

Has anyone found a suitable aftermarket bracelet for the Cosmonaut models? Or an OEM source for the originals?

So many for sale don't have the bracelet (presumably either bought on a strap or bracelet sold/lost).

Have you tried eBay? There seem to be a few on there, don’t know if they are any good.

[hughtrimble]

Have you tried eBay? There seem to be a few on there, don’t know if they are any good.

Alas, none of the Fortis bracelets appears to be for the older Cosmonauts, almost all for the B42 versions or other models.

It's for this, which I've finally sourced after a year of searching (shown here on a 93150 bracelet).

[Neil.C]

Enjoyed reading this thread and looking at the pics.

Haven't got a chronograph version but this is my Cosmonauts (diver!) version still with original seal on the back.

[alfat33]

It's for this, which I've finally sourced after a year of searching (shown here on a 93150 bracelet).

That’s very nice. It is really a classic looking watch, and has an authentic space connection as well, even if it started as a marketing exercise. I think the dial is the same as on my Stratoliner apart from the Cosmonaut branding.

If you find any sources of bracelets maybe you can tip us off :). Thankfully quite a few of the Fortis models look good on straps.

[GOAT]

Very nice watch.
Not had a Fortis in the collection for a few years but. I’ll be on the lookout!
Always wanted the Titanium B42 ISS version but missed out.

[number2]

Always fancied one of these

[hughtrimble]

Enjoyed reading this thread and looking at the pics.

Haven't got a chronograph version but this is my Cosmonauts (diver!) version still with original seal on the back.

That looks minty fresh - I'm a big fan of their matte bracelet and case finishing

[hughtrimble]

That’s very nice. It is really a classic looking watch, and has an authentic space connection as well, even if it started as a marketing exercise. I think the dial is the same as on my Stratoliner apart from the Cosmonaut branding.

If you find any sources of bracelets maybe you can tip us off :). Thankfully quite a few of the Fortis models look good on straps.

Will do - Fortis themselves say they have no stock left, so the hunt continues.

I'm also trying to source some different bezels for this one, but again, no dice as of yet.

[Neil.C]

That looks minty fresh - I'm a big fan of their matte bracelet and case finishing

It is nice isn't it?

One thing that drew me to the watch in the first place.

[Mr Curta]

It is nice isn't it?

One thing that drew me to the watch in the first place.

It's flippin' gorgeous

[hughtrimble]

Does anyone know what the finish actually is?

Before I got hold of mine, I thought these Cosmonauts were beadblasted just judging by photos, but in hand it's more like it was beadblasted and then stonewashed/tumbled in very fine media?

[hughtrimble]

A bracelet compatibility check - does anyone own one of the Smiths Explorers? The 20mm bracelets could possibly be a suitable fit and style (albeit needing refinishing)...anyone with one able to check?

[hughtrimble]

A bracelet compatibility check - does anyone own one of the Smiths Explorers? The 20mm bracelets could possibly be a suitable fit and style (albeit needing refinishing)...anyone with one able to check?

The answer is it almost works, but there's a little too much play so the end links can flip around. It's an extremely comfortable bracelet though, so I'll look to add something to prevent the flippage.

[bwest76]

I wish we had more threads like this,very enjoyable I like every watch shown.

I have an old Catalogue somewhere I will post pics if I find it.

What has happened to Fortis can you still buy watches?

[Neil.C]

I wish we had more threads like this,very enjoyable I like every watch shown.

I have an old Catalogue somewhere I will post pics if I find it.

What has happened to Fortis can you still buy watches?

Fortis are still available to purchase new.

[bwest76]

Fortis are still available to purchase new.

I was told there was no importer to the UK or spares and servicing?

[hughtrimble]

I was told there was no importer to the UK or spares and servicing?

They have a service place here - Charles Martin Watch Company. I asked previously if anyone had any experiences with them, but no dice. They seem very communicative, but on the punchy side (450+ for a L5100 service, but they at least cover the shipping to and fro)

[Redwolf]

New photo here
Also is it me or has anyone else noticed these have hel up in price lately? I mean the 5100 powered ones.

[hughtrimble]

Liking the matching 90s theme with the fake flowers!

The 5100s do indeed seem to command punchy prices, but I do question how many have sold at the prices being advertised? Frequently 2k plus for the dive bezel model, but it's only frequent because it's the same adverts being reposted over time.

[Nealywheelie]

I wish we had more threads like this,very enjoyable I like every watch shown.

I have an old Catalogue somewhere I will post pics if I find it.

What has happened to Fortis can you still buy watches?

Jura showing the full range.


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[Neil.C]

Plenty of models here....


https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/search?q=fortis%20AND%20-vendor:Archive%20AND%20-tag:Insurance&type=product

[bobbee]

I really don't know how I missed this thread!
Amazing, well worth reading and the watches are out of this world!

[sweets]

I have just noticed a gumtree seller in Stevenage is selling a very clean white dial Stratoliner at a very attractive price.
Incidentally, I see he also has a large Tissot Regatta chrono for an even better price.
I have no connection with the seller, and leave it up to any potential buyers to do their own DD.
If anyone goes for it/them, please make a suitable donation to the Fundraiser for the tipoff.
Dave

[Redwolf]

I have just noticed a gumtree seller in Stevenage is selling a very clean white dial Stratoliner at a very attractive price.
Incidentally, I see he also has a large Tissot Regatta chrono for an even better price.
I have no connection with the seller, and leave it up to any potential buyers to do their own DD.
If anyone goes for it/them, please make a suitable donation to the Fundraiser for the tipoff.
Dave

It’s nice but I do prefer the Arabic numerals.

[Shrimper]

Fortis appeared to update there Flieger Professional Automatic Mens Watching around 2017, but has since dropped off my radar,shame, as is looked to be a worthy replacement for my B42.

[Henry Bowman]

I have a Fortis Stratoliner with the 5100 Lemania caliber and the Champagne dial, I use it exclusively for leg timing when I'm flying.
As my eyes are getting older I can't see the hands against the light background very well and have been trying to find a black dial.
I have tried all the regular watch part sources to no avail.
Any suggestions?

[alfat33]

I have a Fortis Stratoliner with the 5100 Lemania caliber and the Champagne dial, I use it exclusively for leg timing when I'm flying.
...Any suggestions?

Hi and welcome to the forum. What do you fly? It’s nice to see a watch being used for its intended purpose.

I spent quite a while looking for the black dial one in my OP. They do sometimes come up on eBay but prices are all over the place. If you search for ‘Fortis 5100’ there are two black dialled ones for sale now (I have no idea about the sellers of course).

There is one exactly like mine on Chrono24, looks in very good condition but over 2x what I paid.

Of course you have plenty of options for a black dialled watch with the Lemania 5100 movement from other manufacturers.

I can’t help with a spare dial I’m afraid but there are lots of different handsets available for 5100 movements. Probably more cost effective to just sell your champagne dial watch and buy a black dial one though.

[Henry Bowman]

Currently fly paramotors and gyroplanes mostly and the occasional Cessna.
I had considered selling my Fortis to get the black one, and yes Iconeek has a nice one but that price!
After much debate, I think I am going to pick up one of Paolo Fantons A-13As and just put my Fortis in "the lineup".
What are you flying?

[alfat33]

I don’t fly unfortunately, only in my dreams :). Maybe one day.

The A13-A is really nice and I guess a familiar layout for a pilot. I thought about getting one of the quartz ones when they came out.

The champagne dial Stratoliner with the white bezel is a lovely thing, like you say a nice one to have in the lineup.

[sweets]

Currently fly paramotors and gyroplanes mostly and the occasional Cessna.
I had considered selling my Fortis to get the black one, and yes Iconeek has a nice one but that price!
After much debate, I think I am going to pick up one of Paolo Fantons A-13As and just put my Fortis in "the lineup".
What are you flying?

You are not going to be disappointed with that, but also check out the Damasko offering, the DC80 (I think) is a viable mechanical option.
D

[Henry Bowman]

And although I do kind of like the black and green DC86 (?) the problem I have with the Damaskos, if you think about it the whole point of the central min chrono is to be able to clearly and instantly know the elapsed time.
I fint the dials on the Damaskos just busy enough that I have to stare at the unnumbered face a bit to ensure a correct time. 5 min off can be a big deal (well not really, I don't leave things up to chance when flying) but as long as were dreaming that our very lives are on the line protected only by our wise choice in mechanical watches....
Yeah, going to just get the quartz A13-A....
Oh and my champagne dial has a black tachymeter bezel.
Actually as I'm a sucker for Omegas, I'd pick up a nice 1045 if the case and band weren't so fugly.
Annnnnnd no. Not going to look at getting a grail watch for 22k!

[learningtofly]

That Stratoliner is beautiful.
Fortis still makes Stratoliners but powered by 7750, so it is not the same.
Still the one below is a good looking variant

Lovely watch (ceramic bezel too), and if it was 40mm I'd buy one in an instant.

Great thread, by the way

[andy111s]

And although I do kind of like the black and green DC86 (?) the problem I have with the Damaskos, if you think about it the whole point of the central min chrono is to be able to clearly and instantly know the elapsed time.
I fint the dials on the Damaskos just busy enough that I have to stare at the unnumbered face a bit to ensure a correct time. 5 min off can be a big deal (well not really, I don't leave things up to chance when flying) but as long as were dreaming that our very lives are on the line protected only by our wise choice in mechanical watches....
Yeah, going to just get the quartz A13-A....
Oh and my champagne dial has a black tachymeter bezel.
Actually as I'm a sucker for Omegas, I'd pick up a nice 1045 if the case and band weren't so fugly.
Annnnnnd no. Not going to look at getting a grail watch for 22k!

That one has been that price for a while I think...

Clarity comparisons:

[seabiscuit]

Clarity comparisons:

[/QUOTE]

A trio of quality chronographs there, especially the Lemania SAAF 5012. And the Omega 376.0822.

[alfat33]

I’ve just got my Stratoliner back from [mention].olli.[/mention] so I thought I’d share some photos of the movement, with Olli’s permission.

For anyone unfamiliar with the Lemania 5100 movement, yes that really is plastic. Despite that, or probably because of it (and Olli’s work) it is keeping really good time with little variation between positions and good amplitude. The chrono operates and snaps back with a very satisfying click. For me it is pretty much all the chrono I would ever want, if I could only have one chrono.

[Redwolf]

I’ve just got my Stratoliner back from [mention].olli.[/mention] so I thought I’d share some photos of the movement, with Olli’s permission.

For anyone unfamiliar with the Lemania 5100 movement, yes that really is plastic. Despite that, or probably because of it (and Olli’s work) it is keeping really good time with little variation between positions and good amplitude. The chrono operates and snaps back with a very satisfying click. For me it is pretty much all the chrono I would ever want, if I could only have one chrono.

Very smart I like that a lot. What strap you running with? Show us.

[alfat33]

Very smart I like that a lot. What strap you running with? Show us.

Thanks. I was wearing it on the Martu custom strap in the earlier pictures. I’ve now got it on a Pav strap which I think works well and is very comfortable. It also works better with the Fortis buckle.

Best picture I’ve got at the moment.

[Redwolf]

Thanks. I was wearing it on the Martu custom strap in the earlier pictures. I’ve now got it on a Pav strap which I think works well and is very comfortable. It also works better with the Fortis buckle.

Best picture I’ve got at the moment.

Yeah that looks great. I like black dials with brown straps.

[witti]

Fortis is absolutely underrated.
They are lovely, especially with the 5100!

[Ar.parask]

Fortis is absolutely underrated.
They are lovely, especially with the 5100!

I agree with your statement. However, I also think that under their mew management are following a strategic path not in line with what the previous positioning.
Aiming high is always great but I don’t think this is the right way to do it...


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