Fortis Stratoliner / Lemania 5100 and a bit of aerospace history.

[alfat33]

For a while now I’ve wanted a Lemania 5100 powered chronograph. I particularly wanted a fixed black tachymeter bezel and a black dial with simple white numerals. A while ago I picked up this Fortis Stratoliner from eBay.


I took a bit of a chance as the pictures didn’t look great and the seller disclosed that the movement wasn’t hacking during our negotiation. In the end it arrived looking pretty good, after a few days the hacking started to work and its been running at +3spd ever since. I know I should have it serviced but for now I’m just enjoying it. The famous Lemania 5100 robustness seems to be holding up.

I liked the name so did a bit of research on the origins. I know Fortis are popular on the forum but I didn’t know much about the history until I started looking. The first Fortis Stratoliner dates from the 1960’s.
There was also a Day Date variant. Overall this ‘60s model appears to be a bit of homage to the Rolex Datejust. There is some speculation on the web about the name ‘Stratoliner’ deriving from the watch’s suitability for high altitude reconnaissance flights. That sounds like nonsense to me, although I’m happy to be corrected. I think it more likely that it was a name associated with international travel and the ‘jet set’, as it was originally used for the Boeing 307 Stratoliner, the first commercial airliner with a pressurised cabin and possible the most beautiful passenger aircraft ever made, and then used for a series of Boeing planes up to the 707.


Fortis also had a space connection in the ‘60s with a different watch, the Spacematic. . They were apparently used by Gemini astronauts. The only source for that claim I can find is a Fortis website so any corroboration would be appreciated. This wouldn’t be the last Fortis space collaboration though.

In the ‘80s Fortis launched a new Stratoliner with a Lemania 5100 movement. The original dial had indices not numerals and has a lovely clean look. . The version with numerals like mine looks to me like a transitional version that co-existed with the yet to be launched Cosmonaut.

The Fortis space connection was re-established in 1992 thanks to an art project collaboration with the Russian Federal Space Agency (RFSA) and the German artist Andora. This led to some very nice limited edition Stratoliners like this one belonging to DeepRedDave.

I guess the Fortis marketing department were behind all this activity. However this successful commercial tie up and subsequent testing by the RFSA led to the development and launch (literally) in 1994 of the Fortis Official Cosmonauts watch.



You can see how similar the dial is to my Stratoliner. Unscrambling the exact history of the different variants around this time, and what went into space first, isn’t easy so any more information would be very welcome.

Incidentally, Fortis, despite their recent troubles, have an interesting horological history. They launched the first commercial automatic watch in 1926, using a design patented by John Harwood.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John...d_(watchmaker)

http://madeupinbritain.uk/Automatic_..._Watch_Company

They are still going strong with some nice looking chronographs, including a Stratoliner, although now based on the Valjoux 7750.

[Mr Curta]

That's a very fine catch, it looks great and I really like the handset.

Thanks for expanding on the history of the Stratoliner/Cosmonaut. As you say, are so many variations that unscrambling a timeline isn't easy at all and I'm afraid that I can't add anything of value. Interestingly the Cosmonaut in your post has a count-up dive bezel and black day/date wheels. My 5100 pictured below has the tachymeter bezel and the white and off-white day and date display. I haven't fathomed why the day and date wheels would be designed to be slightly different shades but it's an idiosyncrasy that I like.

[alfat33]

That's a very fine catch, it looks great and I really like the handset.

Thanks, nice of you to say so and to notice the handset, which I particularly like, especially the rounded hands and the faded orange on the minute counter.

The guy who owns the one with indices blogged about how he changed the hands to a standard Lemania 5100 set, which I don’t understand. Each to their own.

Your one I really thought about getting, because of the cosmonaut history, but I wanted the black tachymeter bezel. One opinion I read is that the ones worn by the cosmonauts had count-up bezels as this is more useful for a pilot. On the other hand, this one looks more like a tachymeter, although pretty hard to tell.


Naturally the other visible watch looks like an Omega, no doubt the rest are as well :).

[Mr Curta]

On the other hand, this one looks more like a tachymeter, although pretty hard to tell.


Naturally the other visible watch looks like an Omega, no doubt the rest are as well :).

Sergei Volkov wearing a Fortis Cosmonaut and an Omega X-33

I'm pretty sure that's a tachy bezel on the Fortis, there's a high res image here:

https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery...017e021368.jpg

[hughtrimble]

...
I haven't fathomed why the day and date wheels would be designed to be slightly different shades but it's an idiosyncrasy that I like.

Interestingly, similar date wheel colour contrast on AmosMoses' Heuer below; were Fortis and Heuer ever associated, or is it more likely that they just used the same supplier (realising the only time I've noticed a discoloured date wheel on a Heuer is exactly once!)

...
I spent years hunting down a Heuer 510.503 and ended up finding a really tidy one. Original bracelet, movement in great shape and a case which had 0 marks.



...

[sweets]

There are many manufacturers that omitted the day feature on the 5100. So it is likely that production numbers differed between the two, and that, as a result, movements were assembled with date and day wheels from production different batches, which therefore age differently over time.
I think this, or later day replacement to change language, are more likely explanations than anything else.

[Mr Curta]

There are many manufacturers that omitted the day feature on the 5100. So it is likely that production numbers differed between the two, and that, as a result, movements were assembled with date and day wheels from production different batches, which therefore age differently over time.
I think this, or later day replacement to change language, are more likely explanations than anything else.

If you run a google image search on 'Lemania 5100' and scroll through the versions with white day/date wheels it is quickly apparent that this is very common and it is always the day that is pure white and the date that is off-white. It can also be seen by scanning through this thread although some are more pronounced than others. There must have been a very large batch of date wheels manufactured with the creamier background.

It's interesting. Here's another Heuer image randomly grabbed off t'interweb.

[deepreddave]

It'll be nice to see a few pics posted from those who have them. I'm fond of mine as it's always a smile inducing watch for me

[Mr Curta]

It'll be nice to see a few pics posted from those who have them. I'm fond of mine as it's always a smile inducing watch for me

If that smile ever starts to wane please do get in touch.

[Sinnlover]

I am a big fan of Fortis, I have had the GMT for 15+ years, I picked up this B42 off SC recently. The B42 alarm was the very first watch I listed over as a kid after seeing adverts in Flypast magazine. I still want to add one to the collection.



The case back of the B42 has the Russian space agency logos on the back.
I would love a L5100 powered version.
It’s good to see a bit of love for lesser seen makers.

[alfat33]

Lovely collection. Looks like that first picture was taken in zero gravity :).

The 5100 versions are 38mm which is the ideal size for my wrist. The newer ones look great though and the Russian space branding is cool.

[Sinnlover]

Ha was not intentional
iPhone with the watches bunged on a seat in the bay window!
I really like the earlier 38mm watches. The GMT is 40mm and very thin, as it’s all dial it wears much larger as do all their pilots watches.
The B42 is supposed to be 42 but is actually 44mm!
Like a lot of brands they have gone down the big watch route, however I would not be shocked if they release a watch based on the earlier chronographs, they have a history of dipping back in the the back catalogue e.g. the flipper and Marinemaster that were sold a few years ago.

[alfat33]

they have a history of dipping back in the the back catalogue e.g. the flipper and Marinemaster that were sold a few years ago.

I like the Marinemaster, I think someone on the forum has one that they post in the Friday thread sometimes.

[Jeremy67]

Here's mine:



Having seen the two chrono hands don't quite reset the same I'm now running the chrono in the hope that a few resets from the other side of the dial might knock them in to shape.

Tbh whilst not a beater it's a daily wearer so I'm not that bothered, it's supremely legible though.

The screw down pushers are faux btw, they operate as with the collar in the pictured position and the collars don't turn. Interestingly mine has the same handset as the the OP's numeral version, not the same as the index only one pictured.

[alfat33]

The screw down pushers are faux btw, they operate as with the collar in the pictured position and the collars don't turn. Interestingly mine has the same handset as the the OP's numeral version, not the same as the index only one pictured.

Very nice. I’m sure that your hands (and mine) are the original and correct ones for this model. I was being polite before - bonkers to change them in my view :).

The chrono pushers are funny. Faux screw down as you say but a lot more convenient in the real world. A very satisfying snap when used.

[deepreddave]

Those sales catalog pics are excellent - thanks for posting those.

[alfat33]

Just checking the date wheels, it seems that all of the Lemania 5100 variants on this thread and the web seem to have that cream date wheel and white day wheel, except Dave’s which are both white. Perhaps they had a job lot :).

I have seen one other colour scheme for the 571.10.142 reference, which was a kind of champagne colour with a silver bezel; indices not numerals.

[RAJEN]

That Stratoliner is beautiful.
Fortis still makes Stratoliners but powered by 7750, so it is not the same.
Still the one below is a good looking variant

[Foxy100]

I've been looking at these for a while, I'd genuinely prefer one to a Daytona.

[RAJEN]

I've been looking at these for a while, I'd genuinely prefer one to a Daytona.

Go for it. Certainly far better looking than Daytona

[hughtrimble]

Another interesting bezel version, but it is on a 7750 variant. I rather like it:



https://www.chrono24.co.uk/fortis/co...id11541663.htm

[sweets]

Another interesting bezel version, but it is on a 7750 variant. I rather like it:

Interesting, I have never seen that before. Hahahahaa, I see that has suffered from the (very common) lume triangle loss that blighted so many of the dive bezel Forti (plural of Fortis??). I lost mine, all the other photos of that one have a black infill that I put in to replace the lost lume.

I sold all the Ducati ones (5 in total), I have a feeling that one of them is still wrapped in original cellophane in one particular Dutch watch dealer's vault. How times change, they all went for less than £750.........

Dave

[learningtofly]

That Stratoliner is beautiful.
Fortis still makes Stratoliners but powered by 7750, so it is not the same.
Still the one below is a good looking variant

Lovely watch (ceramic bezel too), and if it was 40mm I'd buy one in an instant.

Great thread, by the way

[deepreddave]

@Mr Curta - will do.

I have to admit that the pics in this thread are making me want a black faced Stratoliner now (with or without the cream date wheel!).

I did have another Andora version but let that go a while back.

[rushroon]

Love this one - wear it a lot.

Pretty outstanding Diver Chrono - bezel version. Very accurate and robust.

Great watches from a great brand.

[Derivative]

Love the Lemania 5100 powered Fortis, and keen to acquire one at some point.
Aesthetically I lean more towards the Cosmonaut, especially with a rotating bezel. The very definition of a tool watch.

Thank your for sharing this fascinating write up, and it’s great to see pics from owners.

[hughtrimble]

I've been hunting a 5100 Cosmonaut with rotating bezel for months now - the prices are all over the shop though.

I sadly missed out on one going for 1100 on eBay a few months back - it must've sold almost the moment it was posted. The only ones now are reaching above 2k (and not selling, unsurprisingly).

Great thread.

[sweets]

I have a soft spot for Lemania-driven Fortis watches.
I have had several, including tachy bezel and dive bezel ones, as well as a whole group of the Ducati ones which I liberated from a Leeds Ducati dealer as unsold stock.

Old style hands 5100 (outline hands, lume filled for H, M and 24, white stem for chrono-minutes)



New style hands with Dive bezel



Ducati version



I also had one of the very rare Titanium B42 Lemania 5100 models, lovely watch.



But the one I have never owned and is extremely rare is the Lemania 1873-powered Cosmonaut chronograph.

I have alwsys wanted to track one down, but have only ever spotted 2, ages ago. This one was Chuck's



I think that is lovely, if very annoying for being a manually wound watch with a screwdown crown

Dave

[alfat33]

I have a soft spot for Lemania-driven Fortis watches.

Thanks for posting these Dave, I was hoping you might contribute :). What happened to those Ducati versions?

Do you have any more information about how the different dial, hand, bezel and date wheel variants played out in the ‘90s?

I think there is enough information here to make a list ranging from the first indices only model through to the last 5100 powered Cosmonauts. I’ll see if I can figure it out later.

[alfat33]

I like the Ducati ones. I bet they don’t come up for sale very often (and definitely not for £750!).

Overall prices of the Fortis 5100s seem all over the place, even the Andora limited editions.

@Foxy100: definitely nicer than a Daytona :).

[Tophat]

Just received my new Fortis this morning.

IMG_0768.JPG


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[alfat33]

Just received my new Fortis this morning.

IMG_0768.JPG


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Looks nice. Can I suggest using the full Tapatalk app rather than the TZ-UK one? Tapatalk allows you to upload a hi-res version of the picture.

[Tophat]

I did try the app but it kept crashing on me. Seems to be working now so hopefully this is a better picture.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alfat33]

I did try the app but it kept crashing on me. Seems to be working now so hopefully this is a better picture.

Much better, looks fantastic. I really like the numerals. I’m not up on the new ones, is it commerating anything in particular as a limited edition. Looks great in any event.

[Tophat]

Much better, looks fantastic. I really like the numerals. I’m not up on the new ones, is it commerating anything in particular as a limited edition. Looks great in any event.

The official blurb say the 50th anniversary of the Soyuz first manned mission (1968, limited edition released 2018). I’m very happy with it apart from having to deal with Jura Watches. Not sure I’ll keep it on the tan strap though. The hands are on the thin side as well but for the price I managed to get it for, I can live with it.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[Mr Curta]

Yeah, that looks splendid.

[Redwolf]

Thanks to the OP for the thread and to all others who’ve contributed. I really love these watches and was hankering for one for ages, I kind of gave up and then a guy from watchuseek who knew I wanted one pm’d me about a seller on the German UHR forum.

Long story short I purchased this beauty.
A 5100 limited edition 1 of 300 made. I like the little rocket on the planet and stars.


I emailed fortis to find out more as I wanted to know how old it was and they were vague but said this.


If anyone knows the age or anything else I’d be really grateful to hear it.
Thanks

[alfat33]

If anyone knows the age or anything else I’d be really grateful to hear it.
Thanks

I think it might be slightly earlier, possibly 1992 as I think West were part of sponsoring the Andora art project as well. I did some research a while back, will try to dig it out.

[Redwolf]

I think it might be slightly earlier, possibly 1992 as I think West were part of sponsoring the Andora art project as well. I did some research a while back, will try to dig it out.

That old eh, that’s good as I’m a big vintage fan and that’s bordering on vintage imo.
Cheers mate.

[alfat33]

That old eh, that’s good as I’m a big vintage fan and that’s bordering on vintage imo.
Cheers mate.

I’m not certain. Doubt it’s much later though. Sweets will probably have a better idea.

[deepreddave]

I recall my "West in Space" version dates to 1992 and was the first of the Andora collaborations (though I've never contacted Fortis to confirm/deny).

[alfat33]

Apparently this is from the first spaceflight that used the original Fortis Official Cosmonauts watch - the Lemania 5100 version derived from the Stratoliner like mine.



Flight Commander Yuri Malinchenko on the left seems to be wearing a Fortis, although with a strap rather than a bracelet so difficult to be certain. He spent 125 days in space in 1994 including a lengthy EVA (spacewalk) so the watch got a workout. Although the crew took their watches off for some activities (make up your own jokes).


Full details here:
http://www.spacefacts.de/mission/english/soyuz-tm19.htm

This is the claim from the Fortis distributor that the Soyuz TM-19 mission used Fortis Cosmonaut watches. Some more interesting background.

https://gevrilgroup.com/watchbrands/...space-watches/

[Redwolf]

Apparently this is from the first spaceflight that used the original Fortis Official Cosmonauts watch - the Lemania 5100 version derived from the Stratoliner like mine.



Flight Commander Yuri Malinchenko on the left seems to be wearing a Fortis, although with a strap rather than a bracelet so difficult to be certain. He spent 125 days in space in 1994 including a lengthy EVA (spacewalk) so the watch got a workout. Although the crew took their watches off for some activities (make up your own jokes).


Full details here:
http://www.spacefacts.de/mission/english/soyuz-tm19.htm

This is the claim from the Fortis distributor that the Soyuz TM-19 mission used Fortis Cosmonaut watches. Some more interesting background.

https://gevrilgroup.com/watchbrands/...space-watches/

Very interesting, thanks

[alfat33]

Very interesting, thanks

You are very welcome. Just take anything that comes from Fortis’ marketing department with a pinch of salt. BTW what does the caseback of your one look like if you don’t mind me asking?

[Mr Curta]

Thanks for the interesting information, links and images. There's the added bonus of a Seiko A829-6019 in the photograph, on the wrist of Ulf Merbold. It's fascinating to see what watches were being used concurrently, and it's an unusual design with the mode being quickly selected by rotating the bezel.



Apologies for the slight diversion.

[hughtrimble]

Thanks for the interesting information, links and images. There's the added bonus of a Seiko A829-6019 in the photograph, on the wrist of Ulf Merbold. It's fascinating to see what watches were being used concurrently, and it's an unusual design with the mode being quickly selected by rotating the bezel.



Apologies for the slight diversion.

That thing is brilliant. So much more practical than most other digital watches to have the modes so clear to select.

[Henry Bowman]

And although I do kind of like the black and green DC86 (?) the problem I have with the Damaskos, if you think about it the whole point of the central min chrono is to be able to clearly and instantly know the elapsed time.
I fint the dials on the Damaskos just busy enough that I have to stare at the unnumbered face a bit to ensure a correct time. 5 min off can be a big deal (well not really, I don't leave things up to chance when flying) but as long as were dreaming that our very lives are on the line protected only by our wise choice in mechanical watches....
Yeah, going to just get the quartz A13-A....
Oh and my champagne dial has a black tachymeter bezel.
Actually as I'm a sucker for Omegas, I'd pick up a nice 1045 if the case and band weren't so fugly.
Annnnnnd no. Not going to look at getting a grail watch for 22k!

[andy111s]

And although I do kind of like the black and green DC86 (?) the problem I have with the Damaskos, if you think about it the whole point of the central min chrono is to be able to clearly and instantly know the elapsed time.
I fint the dials on the Damaskos just busy enough that I have to stare at the unnumbered face a bit to ensure a correct time. 5 min off can be a big deal (well not really, I don't leave things up to chance when flying) but as long as were dreaming that our very lives are on the line protected only by our wise choice in mechanical watches....
Yeah, going to just get the quartz A13-A....
Oh and my champagne dial has a black tachymeter bezel.
Actually as I'm a sucker for Omegas, I'd pick up a nice 1045 if the case and band weren't so fugly.
Annnnnnd no. Not going to look at getting a grail watch for 22k!

That one has been that price for a while I think...

Clarity comparisons:

[seabiscuit]

Clarity comparisons:

[/QUOTE]

A trio of quality chronographs there, especially the Lemania SAAF 5012. And the Omega 376.0822.

[Henry Bowman]

Currently fly paramotors and gyroplanes mostly and the occasional Cessna.
I had considered selling my Fortis to get the black one, and yes Iconeek has a nice one but that price!
After much debate, I think I am going to pick up one of Paolo Fantons A-13As and just put my Fortis in "the lineup".
What are you flying?