New supra

[Mrbarry]

Exactly that for me yes. I’m a fan of both BMW and older Jap cars. The supra seems like the best of both worlds in one package to me. 🤷*♂️

As for ‘worth it’, I am a watch collector, I have three rolex watches two of them valued North of £10k. To me they are worth it because......... but you try explaining that to Joe public. I also have over 30 lower value watches, mainly between the £600 - £1500 range. All worth it to me. Pouring an extra £40 a week into the fuel tank regardless of how good a car may be isn’t worth it IMHO, in fact I could have an Audi A3 1.8D and get 75mpg like the brother in law has. Good car. But I think it’s worth spending the extra on fuel for an M140 or the like because that’s where the line sits for me. Any more I would feel like I was simply wasting hard earned money pointlessly. It’s each to their own 👍👍

[Mj2k]

At least someone shares my thoughts on the b58 (S58 is where its at ;))

Don't agree on the interior though , as Jap interiors are largely pretty shocking , the GT86 is awful the GTR is woeful, even the Civic is poor and all of them do lousy tech and thats what sells cars nowadays . BMW tech is one of the best

Agree on the bmw interior being better. But it is so clearly a bmw inside a Japanese car & the clash doesn’t work for me.

Agree on the GTR, it has stopped me buying one previously.

S58, oh yes please!

[Omegamanic]

So how many on here actually spent their money on one of these?
I am looking for something new and BMW, ideally an M2 comp. down side to that car it has the S55 engine that is derived from a 2012 M135i, and a 6 speed DSG box. The S55 is thirsty and agricultural next to the B58. I dislike DSG boxes for their harsh mechanical shifting when your on it, I know that is because they shift so fast but I can spare 0.1 seconds normally 

So on to the supra. I love the looks, it’s got the perfect engine and gearbox for my needs. It’s 1390kg wet. The idrive is great. Seats are comfortable. I get that Mk4 supra fans will be disappointed that it is so largely BMW but that means nothing to me it’s just a car. I was a huge Toyota fan back in the day owning and racing them for over a decade, I even took one to good wood FOS as a VIP for Toyota in 2009, but they deserve none of my loyalty, they show me none the same as all corporations. They just want your money.

Price wise I think it’s good. Remember if you buy a BMW Z4 you get nothing! What do you mean you want wheels sir? They are extra! And seats too?? Well those aren’t included in the standard spec. Where as the supra comes with everything in one package. You get HUD, keyless entry, adaptive cruise, mem seats, digital dash, leather, bla bla bla. By the time you add all of the Supra spec to the Z4 it would be £10k more.

You’ll never please everyone obviously. But if you have owned one what did you think of it?

Surprisingly good :)

Exceptionally comfortable, and very quiet, even compared to the 3 series with smaller supposedly quiet tyres!

Great daily drive, and averaging just under 30mpg, with regular weekly unrestricted laps. It’s a surprisingly quick car.

S55 is not N55, so you are talking N55 vs B58. ‘Couple of changes’ is not 450bhp stage 2 so you’re not comparing any like for likes.

If something needs to be justified, you’re making sacrifices elsewhere to make the costs ‘worth it’

If you’re into modding cars, go for it but asking for how people find the engine holds little relevance as curves / flat spots become an irrelevance.

B58 is a petrol engine that drives like a lazy diesel. If that floats your boat then go for it.

Supra wise, I cannot get past the bmw interior on a Japanese car, so it ruins it for me no matter how much I think the exterior is stunning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a couple of turbo diesel cars, and it certainly doesn’t feel anything like a lazy turbo to me; more similar to the AMG GT 4.0 or Aston Vantage without the spike to me.

Also the ability to run 450bhp with a simple Stage 1 tune. The difference from standard is fairly Epic.

[Mrbarry]

Lovely car that. Thanks for the feedback.
I’m not surprised to hear it is quiet and comfortable from Toyota. I’m believe the electronic dampers are BMW as is the electronic limited slip diff, but I bet Toyota have put more sound proofing in than BMW do. Tyre selection helps as well. What does the supra run?
I need to sort a test drive.

[Brian]

Surprisingly good :)



I have a couple of turbo diesel cars, and it certainly doesn’t feel anything like a lazy turbo to me; more similar to the AMG GT 4.0 or Aston Vantage without the spike to me.

Also the ability to run 450bhp with a simple Stage 1 tune. The difference from standard is fairly Epic.

I think what he means is that there is no lag in the power curve delivery at the bottom end rather than put your foot down, wait, then try to hang in like I remember my 911 turbo . From 1500 rpm you are go in the supra 19/20 build- the '21 is a little different and I find it actually less attractive> I know that the move from the B30C build to the M3001 engine build has improvements but the lower compression ratio means the torque kicks in at 2500 rather than 1500 rpm. There are also differences in the fuel system in the toyota - like it runs at almost twice the pressure 5000psi rather than 2900psi on the BMW standard.

Although the majority of the bits are BMW the synergy is definitely Toyota. The ZF tuning is definitely the best I have ever driven including the Merc and the Aston and is good for 600bhp. The damping and differential tuning leaves the Z4 in the shade by putting you much more in contact with the road and steering wants for nothing other than a little tightening in bumpy narrow cable curl type bends. The interface tech on the japanese cars is crap even in my Lexus (no especially) and I much prefer I5 which is a delight.

The lichfield is a good tune I hear - did you get yours done to a new car or acquire it already tweaked?

B

[Mrbarry]

There are a few iterations of B58.
The original B5830M0 from the M140 and 240i was a corking lump. It was improved in the supra and G series BMWs by building a new cylinder head with lighter valve gear and a single piece head/manifold casting, net result being better cooling abilities, better control of exhaust gas temperature for both turbo response and emissions benefits, a saving in weight, a cost saving due to reduced fasteners and assemble processes, much better packaging for tighter engine bays.
The biggest problem with the later engine is the restriction known as PPF or GPF if you’re American. In standard form it suppresses sound slightly yet doesn’t impede on performance greatly. As soon as you remap or try to tune the car it kills gains.

The B58TU comes with an updated TU fuel pump running higher pressure. This helps the engine rev out much easier and is a similar spec to the Borch pump fitted to full M cars, this M140 pump is done by around 480bhp and 650nM. The TU will see you well on the way to 700bhp and 850nm with other supporting hardware. There are a total of 5 specs of HPFP’s that I know of fitted to M and M light cars. All can be interchanged as long as you tell the ecu and no other changes are generally needed.

Later spec supra engines I haven’t looked into much, I’m know post June 2020 the DME was changed and locked so you can’t remap them. Emissions settings where altered at the same time and that resulted in the turbo spooling up later.

[Brian]

There are a few iterations of B58.
The original B5830M0 from the M140 and 240i was a corking lump. It was improved in the supra and G series BMWs by building a new cylinder head with lighter valve gear and a single piece head/manifold casting, net result being better cooling abilities, better control of exhaust gas temperature for both turbo response and emissions benefits, a saving in weight, a cost saving due to reduced fasteners and assemble processes, much better packaging for tighter engine bays.
The biggest problem with the later engine is the restriction known as PPF or GPF if you’re American. In standard form it suppresses sound slightly yet doesn’t impede on performance greatly. As soon as you remap or try to tune the car it kills gains.

The B58TU comes with an updated TU fuel pump running higher pressure. This helps the engine rev out much easier and is a similar spec to the Borch pump fitted to full M cars, this M140 pump is done by around 480bhp and 650nM. The TU will see you well on the way to 700bhp and 850nm with other supporting hardware. There are a total of 5 specs of HPFP’s that I know of fitted to M and M light cars. All can be interchanged as long as you tell the ecu and no other changes are generally needed.

Later spec supra engines I haven’t looked into much, I’m know post June 2020 the DME was changed and locked so you can’t remap them. Emissions settings where altered at the same time and that resulted in the turbo spooling up later.

Interesting info; I agree that the intercooler being actively cooled gives the engine less heat stress susceptibilty.

We both agree that PPFs are a PITA.

Incidentally although the DME/ECU on the later build has only just been cracked(as I understand it from the lads in oz who race our cars) you can as I'm sure you are aware still JB4 piggyback for tunes.

I have an out of the box UK version which has Dyno'd 345 at the wheels and 390 - which is great. It runs on Michelin supersports btw 255F/275R.

B

[Mrbarry]

345bhp at the wheels is a very good result. I know the M140 is meant to be 340bhp at the flywheel but always dyno tests at between 360-370 when standard. Stage 1 remap gives them 430/435. I had also heard the supra over shot it’s stated numbers but that’s even more than the M140. It’s more at the road than it should be at the flywheel in fact.

I have used a number of JB4 and JB+ boxes. Very impressed over all. The one I used on a B58 made a bit less power than a remap but was more aggressive. It would bring boost on harder and felt more powerful than a remap, a remap can be what you make it but I guess they tend to factor in more comfortable drivability.

Glad to hear they come with some decent rubber too. The BMW Bridgestone are horrific. No grip in the wet. Noisy. Terrible things. Always swap them for MP4s ASAP.

[NikGixer750]

Bootmode (BM3) have been tuning the new Supra with good results, all done with your phone. I run it on my m240 (B58) and its great.

You can also get custom tunes from people anywhere in the world made for you car if you dont want an off the shelf tune.

[Omegamanic]

I think what he means is that there is no lag in the power curve delivery at the bottom end rather than put your foot down, wait, then try to hang in like I remember my 911 turbo . From 1500 rpm you are go in the supra 19/20 build- the '21 is a little different and I find it actually less attractive> I know that the move from the B30C build to the M3001 engine build has improvements but the lower compression ratio means the torque kicks in at 2500 rather than 1500 rpm. There are also differences in the fuel system in the toyota - like it runs at almost twice the pressure 5000psi rather than 2900psi on the BMW standard.

Although the majority of the bits are BMW the synergy is definitely Toyota. The ZF tuning is definitely the best I have ever driven including the Merc and the Aston and is good for 600bhp. The damping and differential tuning leaves the Z4 in the shade by putting you much more in contact with the road and steering wants for nothing other than a little tightening in bumpy narrow cable curl type bends. The interface tech on the japanese cars is crap even in my Lexus (no especially) and I much prefer I5 which is a delight.

The lichfield is a good tune I hear - did you get yours done to a new car or acquire it already tweaked?

B

I specifically tracked down a pre June 20 build, and found one with exceptionally low miles, and then took it to Litchfield.

With the damp road it will now just spin up through the gears from 5th at around 90mph, so you do need to be a little more gentle on applying the power, but as long as you don’t floor the throttle too quickly is pretty good for traction in the dry. Not quite 911 Turbo or C4GTS levels of grip though, but comparable with other rear wheel drive only cars with similar power. The power delivery is very linear - I found the Aston Vantage a little on/off, which reminded me a little of a two stroke, or maybe the S2000 Vtec, but scaled up a few levels with its increased power and twin turbos.

[Mrbarry]

I know what you mean about wheel spin after a remap. The M140i we currently have will spin the rear wheels in the wet at 50 or 60 mph if you kick down, even in a straight line. It has a wavetrac limited slip diff too. The wider section rear rubber on the supra will make matters worse still by reducing cornering weight. For best results you would want wide rubber in the dry, narrow(er) in the wet or snow. Counter intuitive I know but it is a balancing act.
The supra has a longer wheel base too, so will take longer to transfer weight over the rear axel, I haven’t looked at static weight front to rear.
You have helped me decide I really do want one though 😁.

[Mrbarry]

Incidentally how did the Lichfield remap affect fuel economy? There is a stage 1 Lichfield supra for sale at a local dealers with an Akrapovic exhaust fitted. And a Lichfield remap doesn’t void Toyotas warrantee! Toyotas 5 year warrantee. Can’t grumble at that!

[Brian]

At least someone shares my thoughts on the b58 (S58 is where its at ;))

You could wait for the 2023 limited edition GRMN Supra which has that engine but is a tad more cash :-)



B

[Omegamanic]

Incidentally how did the Lichfield remap affect fuel economy? There is a stage 1 Lichfield supra for sale at a local dealers with an Akrapovic exhaust fitted. And a Lichfield remap doesn’t void Toyotas warrantee! Toyotas 5 year warrantee. Can’t grumble at that!

I didn’t notice any change, but then I probably put less than 500 miles on the car before. The tank before I picked the car up was averaging 24mpg, but almost exclusively run in Sport. My first tank was just under 33mpg, mostly motorway, and first tank mixed driving was 27.5mpg, I usually get slightly better than that. It’s offset by the 140-165mpg I’m averaging in the 330e though :)

The Akra is nice, but I’m not a huge fan of more noise for the sake of it, even the start up engine blip is a bit boyish for my tastes ;)

[Omegamanic]

You could wait for the 2023 limited edition GRMN Supra which has that engine but is a tad more cash :-)



B

At what price though…

I didn’t realise the wheel base on the Supra was longer than the 140, I thought it was a fair bit shorter. It’s quite a short wheel base on the BMW/Supra.

[number2]

I haven't fancied a car so much for ages, yellow methinks.

[Brian]

At what price though…

I didn’t realise the wheel base on the Supra was longer than the 140, I thought it was a fair bit shorter. It’s quite a short wheel base on the BMW/Supra.

Allegedly they wiil knock out an edition of 200 WW but we only got 24 A90's in the Uk out of 1500 WW I think so you will need to get your name down and be prepared for £100-120k outlay.

I am tempted to be honest as it will be the last petrol sports car apart from the exotics so it is said.

B

[Brian]

I am happy with this one at the moment - the out of the box version - but with annoyances coded out :-)


IMG_3121 (Small).JPG


I had to check back it is ice grey but I quite fancy a yellow one - the wife does not btw.

[Mrbarry]

I must hold my hands up I made assumptions about the wheel base of the supra V M140. Either way it is what it is. I know the Supra isn’t a huge car though.

[Omegamanic]

I must hold my hands up I made assumptions about the wheel base of the supra V M140. Either way it is what it is. I know the Supra isn’t a huge car though.

I think the Supra is shorter than the GT86, but then it doesn’t have the small back seats either.

[Mrbarry]

I’ll google wheel bases in a bit lol. I do like a short wheel base, the way the chassis moves around it’s moment of inertia 😁

[Mrbarry]

Well I did it. Traveled 140 miles around to drive a 2019 3.0GTpro. Lichfield remap and Miltec exhaust.

First impressions, the exhaust was chav as hell. Huge pipes! Car was very nice looking and every single person who walked past was staring, turning back and looking at all angles. It’s not a car for the shy, I was more than fine with that.
We went into the showroom where we where promptly seated. A salesman took my licence and disappeared. I heard an almighty roar and the supra moved from its parking spot into open space ready to be formally introduced. The roar was lovely but too much for the county village where I live!
We where beckoned out and given the keys. As I am familiar with the idrive and BMW’isms I needed no assistance there. I did however need a shoe horn and some grease. I got in and out 20 times, I found the best way was arse on seat first, lean forward and twist my head under the roof and over the steering wheel, NOT graceful and not enjoyable. I am 6’3 and 15 stone so not skinny but not fat. My wife is 5’10 and she fit ok, well better than me anyway 🤣

Fired up the engine and pulled away. Hated the exhaust! Boomy and too much, but the chorus of quiet crackles and gentle pops on start up made me giggle like an idiot. Unfortunately the loud drone ruined the car and made the ZF8 speed feel badly mapped. Pull away gently in normal driving and it shifts into 6th by around 30mph and you hear every single shift. The M140 with its stock exhaust disguised the shifts into a seamless smooth experience.
It wasn’t as quick as expected. Traction from the lights was none existent and it wastes all of its efforts by spinning up the rear wheels, the roads where dry too. From 30-80 it would grip but according to my timing not as quick as the M140, the M140 also has significantly more grip in a straight line and corners.
The drive wasn’t as involving as the M140, a bit numb I thought. I think I had met my hero though and that’s often a bad idea, but the M140 glides along and makes the road feel special where as the supra didn’t for me.
The build quality is high and the dash board etc what I would expect, the only bad touch point was the steering wheel, slightly thin in the hand and hard to the touch, it felt a bit plastic but was by no means offensive.

I wish I had driven a standard one, the exhaust was it’s real downfall.



So what next? I drive an M2. It’s real love 🤣🤣🤣

[Mrbarry]

As a side note to the size of the car, I viewed it at a Mazda dealership. I walked over to a brand new MX5 soft top then a hard top and sat in both. The tiny MX5 is much easier to get in and out, much MUCH easier.

Fuel economy was about the same as the M140 on the same route, we drove it in the supra then the BMW in the same driving style. First 10 miles normal and gentle returning high 30s. Then spanked them a couple of times returning to the dealership. Over all both did low to mid 30s. Most of my driving is gentle I’m no boy racer but you have to see what is possible when buying a new car 👍

M2 is still not an option for me despite the drive and immersion being sublime. But now I know a Supra is off my list due to the impossible doors/access. The M2 was a comp and the S55 sounds great, no better but no worse then the M140 to my ear. The M2 had a stock exhaust, I wish the supra had.


Think I’m going to buy new MX5! Cheap, great to drive, and you can have the roof off. Less impressive than a supra or M2 but easy to get in and out, nice enough engine note, and importantly ‘I like them’. I dunno what to do now I’m all 6s and 7s.

[Omegamanic]

I’m surprised you fit in the MX5, I don’t :(

I was over 17 stone when I picked up the Supra, but a little under 16 now, but I’m a couple of inches shorter than you and my hair touches the roof on the MX5 no matter what I do with the seat.

I don’t notice hear changes in the Supra unless I’m really pushing it. I couldn’t put my foot flat on the accelerator without losing traction, but then I can’t do that in any performance car I’ve driven in the last 5 years without either a loss of traction or the traction control kicking in. 0-60 in around 3.8 secs and a sub 12 sec quarter is plenty quick enough for me on the road - mine feels ballistic :)

& handling is better than any 1 series or 2 series I’ve ever driven, including a new M2 Comp (I guess once you’ve driven many miles in a car you get accustomed to handling characteristics). I’d give the Cayman 718 the edge (it came down to a choice between the two while I wait for the Emira) , but the Supra is a more comfortable drive overall for me, by far.

[Mrbarry]

The 718 handling is epic. I don’t fancy one though.

I think the supra needs better rubber. I had potenza 0001 run flats on the M140 when I got it. Terrible in all conditions. Replaced them for Michelin Pilot sport 4s, it’s like a different car! My mate who I share a lift to work with has an M140 (that’s why I wanted one) and he had Michelin SS, as soon as he felt the MP4s he swapped to them too. They are leaps and bounds ahead in all but perfectly hot dry conditions where the SS have better feedback.

The M2 has poise. It has a feel as soon as your hand slides behind the door handle that doesn’t stop each and every time you set hands or eyes on each and every part of the car. Out of the box it is just balanced, considered and a finished product with little compromise in any situation. For me the supra didn’t come close and was only complete in how completely it compromises the experience of driving, again the exhaust was the cars biggest floor aside from entry and exit difficulties, but once in the car you forget the door and get consumed by the exhausts dull droning horror following you around like a bad smell.

My M140 did need a remap, £££ chassis tweaks and a £2200 LSD to make it what BMW should have made it, but I wouldn’t swap it for a Supra. It’s a far better car. Sharper, as fast, smoother, and I can get in and out.

If I was shorter and it had had a standard exhaust maybe things would have been different.

Love the Supras no ‘F’s given attitude and stance though. It’s marmite and not ashamed. For that I commend it.

[Mrbarry]

I’m not trying to bash the supra btw. In many ways I still love it. It’s just not for me. 👍

[Omegamanic]

It’s a great car for me, and not many things/choices in the same price bracket with similar performance; but cars have to meet a certain requirement. I’m lucky that it’s one of a few, so some compromises are easily overlooked, when I can use another car. As an only car I’d need 4-5 seats.

I think with a few more tweaks it will be even better :)

[hogthrob]

That does look better with the spoiler, not feasible I guess though with the narrow boot lid?

The added spoiler lifts the eye away from the droopy rear end, my only aesthetic complaint being the front and rear looking like they’ve kind of melted & sagged a bit near a fire.

I'm not sure it's entirely the spolier that makes the lower one look better.

[Omegamanic]

I'm not sure it's entirely the spolier that makes the lower one look better.

That does look like a little bit of an optical illusion, as on the darker colours the diffuser doesn’t look quite so obtrusive behind the rear wheel.

[NikGixer750]

I saw one of these for the first time over the weekend, I appreciate its an acquired taste but it looked fantastic. When I change my m240 I could well be heading to Toyota

[Mrbarry]

If your going from BMW to the supra you’ll be very pleased at the trim level of the Supra. They have EVERYTHING apart from a kitchen sink as standard. And Bimmercode works on them too.

[Omegamanic]

I need to look into Bimmercode

[Mrbarry]

If you download the app it’s free to see what options are ‘likely’ for your car. There are normally more.
If you have a OBD2 dongle like a Vgate iCar Pro it lets you connect free and see the exact options. However, the second you try to make a change it wants £32 for a licence. But it’s £32 well spent and you can use it on unlimited cars but only one phone.
I paid £18 for my Vgate dongle from Amazon.

If you’re ever local to Wolverhampton you’re welcome to use mine for free to make changes and see if you want to purchase a dongle and licence for your own phone 👍

[Omegamanic]

Thanks for that.

I think I’ll just buy the tools and licence. I can probably use it on my 330e and the Supra.

[Brian]

I have used it to code out a couple of annoyances - e.g. exhaust noise through the speakers, stupid engine on/off/restart default oh and I have changed the alert sound.

There are tons of things that you can do.

Be careful though if using expert mode :-)


B



P.S. I use this dongle which definitely works with the supra :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Mrbarry]

That’s not a cheap dongle. I’d be happy to post mine out for a test if it’s of intetest. These ones are £100 cheaper.

[Brian]

That’s not a cheap dongle. I’d be happy to post mine out for a test if it’s of intetest. These ones are £100 cheaper.

I got mine for about £30 - sorry it was £54 - I just dont have a clue why they have gone up so much on Amazon.

Ho Hum....................they will be around on the bay of fools.

B

[adigra]

I'm not sure it's entirely the spolier that makes the lower one look better.

That is really interesting as small detail changes made it look much more balanced. It's what I do for a living so overall find the design of the Supra quite fascinating. If you look at the original concept car, it was a lot more balanced and the details in proportion, but they then had to translate those styling elements onto a smaller BMW platform. The lights were designed for the concept, so look too close together on the real car. In fact all of the key volumes/shapes just look a bit too bunched up on the real car. It's like a human face with features which are just a bit too large. I still really like it though, and especially in person, it's very striking, but you can see that it should've been a bit wider and longer.

[Omegamanic]

The concept car was definitely more striking.

But, I still don’t think there’s anything that looks quite like it. They can always update and improve the styling a little, if they decide to evolve the model - but that remains to be seen.

[Mrbarry]

The concept car does look incredible! The real car looks great too tho