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Thread: Steel sports dominance.

  1. #1
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    Steel sports dominance.

    With the current market infatuation with steel sports models from Rolex, Patek and the inflated prices, why has the reissue of the Cartier Santos not meet with the same demand or price inflation.

    A watch with a undoubtedly historical pedigree from a manufacturer with similar pedigree, iconic design with very little change throughout its history and which can be picked up just by walking into a AD without having to grovel.

    Is the demand for Rolex and Patek purely now driven by residual and profiteering and leaving other great watches behind. The Patek owner said that he limits the production of steel models as he does not wish for them to become the dominant within the brand and end up like Audemars who are 100% defined by the Royal Oak. Looking at the current market, I think the Patek owner has missed the boat if he believes they are not being defined by the Nautilus and Aquanaut with the other models sitting on display.

    The Santos seems to hit every mark that would make it a collection must have but it does not seem to have the same cache as other steel sports model currently.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasher View Post
    With the current market infatuation with steel sports models from Rolex, Patek and the inflated prices, why has the reissue of the Cartier Santos not meet with the same demand or price inflation.

    A watch with a undoubtedly historical pedigree from a manufacturer with similar pedigree, iconic design with very little change throughout its history and which can be picked up just by walking into a AD without having to grovel.

    Is the demand for Rolex and Patek purely now driven by residual and profiteering and leaving other great watches behind. The Patek owner said that he limits the production of steel models as he does not wish for them to become the dominant within the brand and end up like Audemars who are 100% defined by the Royal Oak. Looking at the current market, I think the Patek owner has missed the boat if he believes they are not being defined by the Nautilus and Aquanaut with the other models sitting on display.

    The Santos seems to hit every mark that would make it a collection must have but it does not seem to have the same cache as other steel sports model currently.
    The way I see Santos is how I see men's Omega Constellation, design wise.

    Great watches. Santos is legendary and Costellation is a great watch... but I consider both a bit "feminine". And somehow too 80's.

    Maybe it's just me though.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    It's ugly.
    "A man of little significance"

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPE View Post
    The way I see Santos is how I see men's Omega Constellation, design wise.

    Great watches. Santos is legendary and Costellation is a great watch... but I consider both a bit "feminine". And somehow too 80's.

    Maybe it's just me though.
    No, it’s not just you. The Genta sports watches have a slightly different vibe to the Rolex ones, but they all share a certain toughness. The Rolex ones have that action man Sean Connery history, while the RO and Nautilus have a jet set glamour and refinement balanced with an almost brutal and a stereotypically male emphasis on engineering. The Cartier simply isn’t in the same category. It’s made of stainless steel and has a bracelet but that’s where it ends.

    It’s actually not an easy spot to hit, the GP Laureato doesn’t manage it, Piaget’s effort likewise. This may be why the few that do work are doing so well.

  5. #5
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    This is mine, and I am surprised how much I like it every time I wear it. That may be part of the problem, as it is not a go to watch for me.

    This particular model is quite chunky (many Santos look a bit delicate), and has a nice curved case and crystal which makes it wear far better than the Reverso, at least on my wrist


  6. #6
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    The Santos is classy and iconic. I brought my wife one years ago (she loves it) and recently purchased myself the latest version. Perfect smart clothes/work watch and a piece I wear much more than my other sports watches, including my Rolex pieces.


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  7. #7
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    Roman numerals

    It's a personal thing but I don't like them myself and they look wrong on a watch attempting to be "sporty".

  8. #8
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    I like the Santos but there are many others I would choose first - a Reverso for a start

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtagrant View Post
    This is mine, and I am surprised how much I like it every time I wear it. That may be part of the problem, as it is not a go to watch for me.

    This particular model is quite chunky (many Santos look a bit delicate), and has a nice curved case and crystal which makes it wear far better than the Reverso, at least on my wrist

    That is just stunning.

  10. #10
    Personally prefer the Santos 100 XL and its a great watch.
    There are a lot of other good/great watches that unfortunately get overlooked by hobbyists as their choices often are dictated by the market.

  11. #11
    I have the 100xl chrono and it is a lovely watch that I never tire of looking at. I think they are a great blend of heritage with added chunkiness and suitable for all occasions

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasher View Post

    A watch with a undoubtedly historical pedigree from a manufacturer with similar pedigree, iconic design with very little change throughout its history and which can be picked up just by walking into a AD without having to grovel.
    I think this is a big part of the answer to this. People want more of what they can't have and so people are more drawn to the hard to obtain watches. Same in other aspects of life.. .

    The Santos is an iconic piece, along with others that can be easily obtained but don't demand huge premiums, such as speedy pro, Reverso etc. I'm sure there are several more...

    I don't think the demand for Rolex/ patek is purely driven by profiteering, but it is certainly a reasonably significant factor to the demand bubble that these manufacturers have managed to create.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasher View Post
    With the current market infatuation with steel sports models from Rolex, Patek and the inflated prices, why has the reissue of the Cartier Santos not meet with the same demand or price inflation.
    There has been a huge surge in demand for portable asset classes with good value retention from Fuerdai, money launderers, Instagram followers etc... Rolex and PP watches are a natural choice because of their historical auction and resale performance. Cartier make some fine wristwatches but there is no reason whatsoever that they should participate in the current upswell in demand.

  14. #14
    I’ve always admired the Santos 100 from afar. Yet have never pulled the trigger on one. Unsure whether high second hand values, the horror stories I’ve heard of the ETA movement, or that slight cachet of ‘Essex Geezer’ done well (that and the Sub/ Date Just) I’ve tried the 38mm on many times & I especially like it on the full bracelet. Big wrist presence also. May have to try the smaller 33mm to see if that can work more dressier.


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  15. #15
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    What exactly is a sports watch?

    It’s always sounded like a meaningless description to me.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    What exactly is a sports watch?

    It’s always sounded like a meaningless description to me.
    A watch supposedly with features to use whilst doing sports - such as greater water resistance and timing bezel for diving, or chronograph for motor racing.

    I don’t think the Santos is a sports watch
    Last edited by mtagrant; 17th August 2019 at 12:14.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    What exactly is a sports watch?

    It’s always sounded like a meaningless description to me.
    It’s traditional term for watches that were more robust and usually less polished than dress watches. Thicker cases, double locking clasps and decent water resistance.

    It’s becoming more meaningless in the world of expensive automatic watches as they’re more likely to be worn in an office than a sporting event. And a Sports Watch these days usually has GPS and a heart rate monitor.

  18. #18
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    What exactly is a sports watch?

    It’s always sounded like a meaningless description to me.
    What used to be called 'tool watches' (watches that you can do stuff with) are now called 'sports watches'... I suppose it sounds more modern... 'tool' is nasty and peasant, whereas 'sport' is good and healthy. For me, anything with a bezel, chronograph, or is over 41mm, is 'sports'.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraxas View Post
    What used to be called 'tool watches' (watches that you can do stuff with) are now called 'sports watches'... I suppose it sounds more modern... 'tool' is nasty and peasant, whereas 'sport' is good and healthy. For me, anything with a bezel, chronograph, or is over 41mm, is 'sports'.
    It may be pedantic but for me sports watches, and tool watches / professional watches are distinct. The Royal Oak is the archetypal sports watch, and started life in 39mm without even a second hand, never mind a functional bezel or any complications beyond a date. So, dress watch for dressing up, smart attire, sports watch for casual attire, sports jacket, hanging around on your yacht. A more rugged watch with reasonable water resistance in case you fall in after your third martini.

    The Rolex professional watches can also be used this way so the lines get pretty blurred, but in my mind at least they are there, and the description of Rolex ‘sports’ isn’t strictly accurate. Some of my favourite watches are somewhere in between.

  20. #20
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    Steel sports dominance.

    One of my favourite pieces.
    Blue Alligator is superb.
    As for some who think it’s a feminine watch....absolutely not and as the OP states, you can walk into an AD and buy with a discount. And remember, it was the first pilots watch so has great history behind it. My only gripe is the price of straps from Cartier!!!!!




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  21. #21
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    For me it is not just the looks, but the brand. Rolex are a watch maker. Patek are a watch maker. Cartier sell watches, jingles, jangle, purses, handbags, and so on. I don't see them as a historic and famous watch manufacturer, they're a famous fashion label. And as mentioned, the looks.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    For me it is not just the looks, but the brand. Rolex are a watch maker. Patek are a watch maker. Cartier sell watches, jingles, jangle, purses, handbags, and so on. I don't see them as a historic and famous watch manufacturer, they're a famous fashion label. And as mentioned, the looks.
    Cartier have been making watches longer than Rolex...

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    For me it is not just the looks, but the brand. Rolex are a watch maker. Patek are a watch maker. Cartier sell watches, jingles, jangle, purses, handbags, and so on. I don't see them as a historic and famous watch manufacturer, they're a famous fashion label. And as mentioned, the looks.
    And yet the Santos, arguably the first mens wristwatch, was being made by Cartier before Rolex were even founded.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtagrant View Post
    Cartier have been making watches longer than Rolex...
    And yet it is irrelevant in my opinion. They might have been first to the scene, but Cartier are now known as a fashion brand. Bags, rings, brackets, bangles, , watches, you name it. They're predominantly a ladies accessories business. Rolex in comparison, they're known for their watches, not their purse, handbags, rings, and bracelets. As I say that's purely my view based on brand image, and doesn't even take into account whether one company made a watch oeip e actually want to wear (personally I'd never wear a tank etc regardless of when they were originally designed)
    Last edited by hafle; 18th August 2019 at 22:54.

  25. #25
    When people way cartier is a fashion brand, it is true that they sell and create jewellery and more... But they are no Michael Kors. Has anyone looked in the cartier stores? The watches are probably some of the cheapest things in there!!

  26. #26
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    Quite frankly, Rolex is now a fashion brand, because for some reason, they have become fashionable and EVERYONE seems to want one. No longer an “exclusive” brand and a little like LV and it’s ridiculous bags!! Even as a Rolex owner, I am acutely aware of the image some wearers want to portray when sporting the latest beast on their wrist. The Santos....timeless elegance, and not something I see on many wrists.....but Rolex...see them EVERYWHERE.



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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    For me it is not just the looks, but the brand. Rolex are a watch maker. Patek are a watch maker. Cartier sell watches, jingles, jangle, purses, handbags, and so on. I don't see them as a historic and famous watch manufacturer, they're a famous fashion label. And as mentioned, the looks.
    Theres a lot of this claat about^.

    People seem to forget that Cartier have been making watches since 1888 and the Santos really kicked off wristwatches for men as we know them BEFORE Rolex existed. They used to work with AP/VC and JLC who supplied movements, as was the norm in that era.
    They have every inch of the history that other manufacturers do but are diminished by collectors because they're also famous for jewellery.

    As ever, Richemont is the problem nowadays.

  28. #28
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    They just don't look like a 'sports' watch to me. They look far dressier and I agree with previous posters about them being more feminine.

    Still nice watches with a great history though.

  29. #29
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    Direction change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Chilli View Post
    They just don't look like a 'sports' watch to me. They look far dressier and I agree with previous posters about them being more feminine.

    Still nice watches with a great history though.
    Appears from a number of posts but also the current state of the watch market for a number of years that a masculine watch needs to be big. If your watch cannot be seen from the Space station then you must be wearing a girls watch and for a manly man that cannot be done.

    The 90’s machismo seems to be were it all started and is still predominant in the market some twenty years later. Was not that long ago that some of the biggest film and music stars were happy to slap on a bit of Cartier and probably still are but for the average Joe it still appears to be the need for bigger.

    Read in another watch forum a post from one of our own who stated that only Gay European men wore Cartier watches, pretty disgusting statement but maybe shows the psyche towards certain brands from the less than intelligent.

  30. #30
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    ‘Claat’.........that’s a word I haven’t heard since I finished work, a term used by my Scottish colleagues!

    I agree, Cartier watches have negative connotations for the wrong reasons, the brand has a great history and the styles are unique. Definitely a dress watch to me, but very wearable on a daily basis. One I’ve never considered owning, I’m not drawn to rectangular watches but I’ve never tried one on.

  31. #31
    Craftsman NCC66's Avatar
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    Lovely watch. I tried one on recently and it sat beautifully on my (small) wrist. Unlike some rectangular watches, that just look very wrong unless you’re a much larger frame than me.

    I’d have one in a heartbeat if I could afford it.


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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    ‘Claat’.........that’s a word I haven’t heard since I finished work, a term used by my Scottish colleagues!...
    'Claat' is actually Jamaican patois for 'cloth', although it is also used as a euphemism for 'damn' (or similar).

    The Scottish word is 'clatty'; it's an adjective meaning 'dirty'.
    ______

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    'Claat' is actually Jamaican patois for 'cloth'.

    The Scottish word is 'clatty'; it's an adjective meaning 'dirty'.
    Ive always used claat/claaty to mean filth/filthy.
    Im not jamaican, im from Edinburgh.

  34. #34
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    Clarty is used in the North East (UK) to denote dirty or filthy. Google the spelling.
    Mud is referred to as Clarts.
    Last edited by bobdog; 19th August 2019 at 14:41.

  35. #35
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    claaty clatty clarty tomato tomayto tomaahto

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    claaty clatty clarty tomato tomayto tomaahto
    LoL

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flasher View Post
    Appears from a number of posts but also the current state of the watch market for a number of years that a masculine watch needs to be big. If your watch cannot be seen from the Space station then you must be wearing a girls watch and for a manly man that cannot be done.

    The 90’s machismo seems to be were it all started and is still predominant in the market some twenty years later. Was not that long ago that some of the biggest film and music stars were happy to slap on a bit of Cartier and probably still are but for the average Joe it still appears to be the need for bigger.

    Read in another watch forum a post from one of our own who stated that only Gay European men wore Cartier watches, pretty disgusting statement but maybe shows the psyche towards certain brands from the less than intelligent.
    I know what you are saying re sizes and some are now quite frankly ridiculously large. For me though it isn't the size that's wrong. (I actually think 40-42 is the perfect size.)

    Also perhaps feminine isn't the correct descriptive word to use. Elegant is probably better.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtagrant View Post
    This is mine, and I am surprised how much I like it every time I wear it. That may be part of the problem, as it is not a go to watch for me.

    This particular model is quite chunky (many Santos look a bit delicate), and has a nice curved case and crystal which makes it wear far better than the Reverso, at least on my wrist

    Nice, but the random orientation of the screw slots would annoy me.

  39. #39
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    I tried in the new-ish santos and it is a fantastic thing. Definitely an elegant sports watch. IMHO the medium sized one is the Goldilocks size. Well worth a look if you want an alternative to a Rolex. Although, having said that, my money will probably go on a grand drink...


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  40. #40
    Craftsman meijlinder's Avatar
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    For me the new Santos range lack some of the elegance of the older models. The proportions are off with the case too big for the strap. It also looks bigger due to the bezel integrating with the end links.


    For comparison.


    Apart from that it's a great watch and definitely what I would classify as a sports watch. Medium is the way to go though. The large is very large (and that's coming from someone with a 21cm wrist)

    Cartier have been making watches (and impressive ones at that) for a long time and calling them a fashion brand is wrong imo.


    Absolutely love my two tone galbee xl btw

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Chilli View Post
    Also perhaps feminine isn't the correct descriptive word to use. Elegant is probably better.
    How about 'French'? :-;

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