Reply With QuoteThanks I'll take a look, another one worth watching is a three part serial on bbc2 called 'Broke' essentially about life working on zero hours contracts.
Posted in here rather than the BP, as I wanted to gauge genuine opinion rather than start an argument, so please don't make any replies too political.
I finally got around to watching the BBC programme called 'How to Break into the Elite' last night. Essentially the programme is a documentary about how social class hugely influences your future job prospects, regardless of your route through (higher) education and final qualification grades. It was one of the most thought provoking programmes I have seen for quite a while. If you haven't seen it already, it is well worth a watch on iPlayer.
Summary text is here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/storie...r-for-top-jobs
One example used within the programme was of an Essex girl who, despite being very intelligent with an excellent degree, could not get a job in here chosen career path and was also not being sent for some interviews by recruiters because she just sounded and looked 'a bit too Essex'.
Despite the fact that I am personally from a very working class background with a very humble upbringing and have experienced many of the same judgments and prejudices from my superiors along my rather challenging career path, I still had to uncomfortably acknowledge that I now shared some of the same 'class prejudices' regarding accent and appearance. That sits very uncomfortably with me. I was also astonished that in this day and age things like this are still going on, but I was also pained to acknowledge that I could understand some of the reasons why they did.
If anyone else has watched this, I would welcome your thoughts and views.
Last edited by Maysie; 10th August 2019 at 12:30.
Thanks I'll take a look, another one worth watching is a three part serial on bbc2 called 'Broke' essentially about life working on zero hours contracts.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Even Maggie T took elocution lessons, just saying.
I grew up in Essex, from a broken home, was a bit rough round the edges as a youngster. Getting in trouble with police, cautions, 7 endorsements etc.
I had an epiphany moment in my early 20's, moved to West London, bought a flat, tidied myself up and never looked back. I learned it was I that had to change to "conform" to expectations, not the other way round. Now approaching retirement, I can't help feeling that the younger generation feel much more sense of entitlement and don't accept as much responsibility for the position they find themselves in instead preferring to feed the blame culture.
In other news - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-49290641
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Wow.Originally Posted by VDG
Thank you for your valuable contribution.
I would say that the UK is one of the best places in the world for anyone with ambition who is prepared to work hard.
I grew up on a council estate and when I proposed to my girlfriend in 1970, I had £4 in the building society and a rusted out Minivan.
I retired in 2010 on a six figure income and owned four houses. It's all down to graft and determination.
To be born British is to win the lottery of life.
To claim that you have to be born in the Elite is true up to a point, but it is a convenient excuse for an awful lot of people who just like moaning about how unfair life is.
To clarify, the programme was not about whether working hard in the UK can pay off or not, it was more about the challenges for people from working class backgrounds attempting to break through the 'glass ceiling' into the world of finance, media & banking, which are traditionally (and continue to be) dominated by those from the middle classes upwards.
Extract:
Their stories are part of a broader phenomenon. Research by sociologists Sam Friedman and Daniel Laurison shows that working-class graduates holding a first-class degree are still less likely to be hired than middle-class candidates with a 2:2; they also found that middle-class graduates will earn on average £7,000 more than their counterparts from low-income backgrounds.
In the documentary, Rajan explores the various inequalities and class-based prejudices that give rise to these statistics, looking not only at the hard economic issues of unpaid internships, but also the cultural bigotry that still exists towards any kind of accent, dress-sense and mannerism indicative of a working-class background. This compounds what millions of people from low-income backgrounds already know to be true: that the road to financial prosperity requires far more than a university degree and a can-do attitude.
Last edited by Maysie; 10th August 2019 at 15:11.
Certainly does no harm going to Eton or Cheltenham Ladies!
It's always been like this and will continue to be.
I watched that when it was aired and it's the same as it ever was as far as I can see. My cousin is from a well to do family with good connections (my mother's sister married well), he failed his degree twice but with his dad's connections he got a job in the city as a money trader and did fantastically well. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it because he worked extremely hard and is a lovely bloke to boot but would he have got a foothold in the city without his dad's connections? I doubt it.
I’m pretty sure that we’re not in the 1970s right now, so whilst interesting these anecdotes are irrelevant.
A top University education, nae scratch that, an Oxbridge degree is still the best way from lower 'class' families to break into getting into these more 'elitist' jobs. However it's more difficult than ever due to the high competitiveness in getting in - and it's getting worse. Plus we have crazy fees.
The issue in the UK is the system is broken if you do not want to go to University. The tech revolution has helped a bit - anyone at 18 can go online and learn to code, but we need more structure. The Continent serves vocational education post 18 years old so much better, we need that here to help those who are not so inclined to go to university.
The old, "It's not what you know, it's who you know" still rings as true today as ever.
Of course you have to be up to the job but a leg up always helps.
Cheers,
Neil.
Sorry but I have to disagree with that.
Advancement is easier today than what it was in the 1970s and I retired 9 years ago, so it is still relevant.
Not really. They illustrate that people can advance themselves by hard work, without needing the ‘elite’ leg up.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I am curious to know why people think this is only the case in the UK. It happens in very country thought the world.
In the US it's Ivy League, houses in the Hamptons, in France it's the Sorbonne, and a house in Paris. In Italy it's pretty much anywhere north of Rome, etc, etc. In Afghanistan its being child of a politician or Drug war lord.
Always was, always will be.
Given its a BBC story, I thought have thought the obvious answer would be as the child of a celebrity. Zoe Ball, David Dimbleby, to name a few. Nothing like a good dose of nepotism to help grease the wheels.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I couldn’t agree more. I’d genuinely be interested if you wouldn’t mind outlining your career path.
I'm curious to know why some people include their EXIF data on photos they publish on the internet, I guess that makes two curious people.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
You already know because I think you have quoted it on a few occasions - Postman Pat
They paid you 6 figures? I thought a postie earth around 20k to 25k? Or were you Director level?
It was a genuine question Mick. I understand you worked for the Post Office in some capacity. Did you spend your entire career in the one organisation? If it isn’t too nosy I was just curious as to what level you entered and what level you retired. Like you I’m a great fan of social mobility, having enjoyed it to some extent myself.
Ok here goes
Left school in 1965 with no qualifications
1965 - 1971 - Served an apprenticeship as a Toolmaker in an aircraft company. Last eighteen months worked as trainee cost engineer.
1971 - 1979 - Worked for the Directorate of Technical Costs for the MOD. Was placed on an accelerated promotion course and negotiated the price of Nimrod modifications with Hawker Siddeley and later for the Scopion family of tanks with Alvis in Coventry.
1979 -1982 - Worked for Massey Ferguson. Started as chief cost engineer and later became Deputy Purchasing for European Parts Operation.
1982 - 2004 - Worked for the Post Office as Purchasing Manager for all Engineering Purchases. Also acted as Liaison Manager for the PO and Parliament on matters concerning procurement. Also at a later date became responsible for the procurement of printed matter, marketing services, hotel services, PFI projects and energy.
2004 - 2010 Worked as a consultant advising on and negotiating large tenders and contracts for PFI and Energy contracts within EU procurement legislation with various private companies.
Had a heart attack in 2010 thanks to working ludicrous hours, so called it quits and retired.
That is it.
Just as curious as those who feel it necessary to investigate and analysis EXIF data in order to attemp to justify a fabricated story.I'm curious to know why some people include their EXIF data on photos they publish on the internet, I guess that makes two curious people.
I for one learnt my lesson, hence don't post pictures anymore, but I doubt the same can be said for you and some of your chums.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
That’s an impressive career- respect to you Sir.
A succinct and appropriate reply Andy, lets keep working on thatJust as curious as those who feel it necessary to investigate and analysis EXIF data in order to attemp to justify a fabricated story.
I for one learnt my lesson, hence don't post pictures anymore, but I doubt the same can be said for you and some of your chums.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Really. You think the millennials will be better off overall than your generation ?
They illustrate that in the 1970’s. Now of course it’s still true today, but the simplistic idea that “I did so anyone else can” is nonsense. My point is that it’s harder now.
For me it's the fact that an ordinary person will struggle to get thro' the door that opens for people who have had the 'right' education. Banking,Law, Judiciary all have their own rules. If you have been to an elite school the door is opened a little more. If you go to Eton and say 'I want to be PM', well there is a list of names on the wall of PM's who were pupils there so the school can offer you advice/help. Public schools have access to eg Oxbridge via history eg Winchester has 15 places guaranteed at Oxford as a result of its founder and Oxford always has an Eton teacher as a Fellow. I once read that Bradley Wiggins told a teacher that one day he (Wiggins) wanted to win the TdF and was laughed at. But I imagine that a pupil of a school like Winchester/Harrow is encouraged to dream big.
Why and in what way(s) exactly do you think it’s harder now than for older generations?
Worry not.
Known troll who has had his wings clipped.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Why do you think it's harder now? If anything it seems to me that it would be easier now.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Wasn't this dealt with in the 60's?
shell gas station locator by zip code
It’d be interesting to hear ideas why it might be easier.
If I take Mick’s time line I could say general unemployment was 2-3 times lower when he started out, apprenticeships we’re almost certainly more available, housing costs and debt in general were lower (and debt was inflated away in the seventies). Job security was probably better, public sector pensions better (final salary, paid for by today’s workers, etc). Financial security allows for greater risk taking in careers. I’m a middle generation X’er and I’m pretty sure I’ve had better chances than the millennials.
Plus, aren't the millennials also competing with a global workforce, whereas that may not have been such a factor in 70s Britain?
I would say it's a mixture. My generation found it easier to get a job, in fact school leavers were in short supply and there was plenty of opportunities around, that is true. But most jobs were in manufacturing and were low paid and low skilled. Buying a house was heck a lot easier but once you had a mortgage you were at the mercy of interest rate increases. At one time mortgages went up to 15.5% and a lot of people lost a lot of sleep over that. We did have more job security and yes pensions were much better.
The millennials also have mixed fortunes. They lead a much better life than my lot did at their age. They dress better, eat out more, have better holidays etc. Their downside is that house purchase is nigh impossible but they will probably be the generation that will inherit more property than any other generation before them. I will die one day and my children will inherit most of it. Also they have more opportunity for educational advancement today than ever before.
The simple reality is that every generation has it tough in one area but easier in another. The trick is to slog it out and overcome the difficulties.
I'm curious to know who apart from crooks, creeps and mentally disturbed stalkers look at the fellow members exif and post their findings on open forum for amusement of a bunch of fellow idle losers who got nothing better to do with their time but to spew bile on the men wrist jewellery forum?I'm curious to know why some people include their EXIF data on photos they publish on the internet, I guess that makes two curious people.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
As an aside, it’s funny how losers can immediately sense their own inadequacy and instinctively feel a need to attack, goad, bait and try to bully people who did well for themselves and not afraid to speak their mind.
Just an observation.
Last edited by VDG; 11th August 2019 at 00:22.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
This.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Heart attacks are nothing to do with 'hard work'
As for for your comments - PMSL comrade - it's what you are about.
God, you must miss the BP!.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I'm curious to know who apart from crooks, creeps and mentally disturbed stalkers look at the fellow members exif and post their findings on open forum for amusement of a bunch of fellow idle losers who got nothing better to do with their time but to spew bile on the men wrist jewellery forum?
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Confirmation at it's best.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
From you it's a compliment mate.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
That’s a pretty big downside... I think I’d prefer a house to some H&M clothes and Dominos once a week ;-)
And inheritance is true, but it’ll be too late for many with life expectancy what it is. And of course this thread started about opportunity for the have-nots. Property wealth won’t be inherited evenly, it’s probably the most unevenly distributed it has been in recent history.
Of course it's harder now than it was previously.
£9k a year univeristy fees now versus the 1962 Education Act which "gave local education authorities in the United Kingdom a mandate to pay the tuition of students attending full-time first degree (or comparable) courses and to provide them with a maintenance grant. No repayment was required".
House prices :
From - https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...se-prices.html
If house prices had kept up with inflation from 1971 to 2013 they would have went from £5632 to £67,483, instead they rose to £247,000. Since that article they've continued to outpace any wage rises and it's more expensive than ever to purchase a house compared to wages.
This is just two very basic facts which are easily sourced. When you look at things like cuts to under 18 education spending and other services which can help lift the less well off I don't think it's even a discussion what time frame had the most opportunity for 'moving up' and amassing wealth.
Really?
Bum Chumming with the Russkie Troll is not a great alliance in my book!.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Well done Mick, it’s great to read of “ordinary” people succeeding in life.
Wishing you a long and happy retirement.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Crack on Vlad - only a matter of time.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
@OP: This will probably sound harsher than I mean it to but... how do you expect not to have class-based elitism in a monarchy?
With all that public sector service I’m sure it will be. Come on millennials... back to the slog ! Somebody has to pay for his pension ;-)
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