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Thread: Engine chipping/remap

  1. #1
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    Engine chipping/remap

    Now that my car is out of warranty I want to get it re-mapped. It’s an E220, so if any Merc owners on here have had their car re-mapped and can point me in the direction of a good place, I would be most appreciative.
    Specifically I’m after a map that will improve economy. I’m not interested in any performance gains but if they come as a side effect of improved mpg that’s fine.
    My car is a taxi and while it’s lovely to drive, the fuel economy has always been crap. I get about 32-33mpg around town whereas my previous Skoda Superb would return me about 44mpg.
    Oh and I’m based down in South Wales so somewhere within a 100 mile radius of Bridgend would be a bonus.

    Cheers,

    Ivor.

  2. #2
    Master Jon Kenney's Avatar
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    Economy is the by product of the performance gains. Less pedal to reach the desired speed improves the economy.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Kenney View Post
    Economy is the by product of the performance gains. Less pedal to reach the desired speed improves the economy.
    I understand that. I thought that you could get different maps for different gains though (perhaps I’m wrong) it’s better economy I want, I’m not really interested in extra bhp, but if an economy map also brings more bhp, that’s fine.
    I don’t know what I can do to improve my fuel economy with regular driving because I really don’t drive the car fast at all. The fact I get 44mpg out of a 2.0L automatic Skoda Superb around town is testament to my easy driving.

  4. #4
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    Sorry, I don't have any recommendations, but I do have experience.

    You may get the benefits of economy and performance, depending on how you drive. For example, I had an S320D which I had remapped in Essex. Straight off I noticed the lower-end rev range was a lot more responsive, less throttle lag, and better fuel economy. The few occasions I had long treks up the M4 there was a slight lull at the higher end, but given the sheer power of the engine it didn't bother me. I guess what I'm saying is if you find a good map specialist, and tell them what you want, they will be able to balance performance <> economy to your use case.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    I had my E350 re-mapped at a place at Thruxton. Took about 4 hours, cost about £400 and was brilliant. Increased BHP from 225 to about 268. Also improved the MPG - I have averaged 41mph in the past 4 years.

    The reason for remapping is that cars are designed to operate everywhere in the world using all sorts of different fuels. By having it mapped, the ECU is effectively dialled in to the UK, it's fuel and more importantly it's weather.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    I had my E350 re-mapped at a place at Thruxton. Took about 4 hours, cost about £400 and was brilliant. Increased BHP from 225 to about 268. Also improved the MPG - I have averaged 41mph in the past 4 years.

    The reason for remapping is that cars are designed to operate everywhere in the world using all sorts of different fuels. By having it mapped, the ECU is effectively dialled in to the UK, it's fuel and more importantly it's weather.

    Not always the case- some have the sole intention to dump as much fuel in to the compression process as possible. My experience of most remapping is generally negative.

  7. #7
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    MSL Birmingham. It will be a walk in the park.

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  8. #8
    If you want better fuel economy buy a more economic car, re-mapping is a bit of a myth, you car is already calibrated and optimised against set criteria, economy, emissions, performance, drivability and longevity, the manufacturers spend fortunes on drivetrain calibration. Before letting someone fiddle with your car or shove in a bought in map have a good look at other cars.

    I have been in involved in endless weeks of “mapping” on very highly tuned engines all for outright performance

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    If you want better fuel economy buy a more economic car, re-mapping is a bit of a myth, you car is already calibrated and optimised against set criteria, economy, emissions, performance, drivability and longevity, the manufacturers spend fortunes on drivetrain calibration. Before letting someone fiddle with your car or shove in a bought in map have a good look at other cars.
    The car is a taxi, as such it has mega mileage. I owe more on the car than it’s worth so until it’s paid off, I’m stuck with it, hence looking at alternative solutions to improve my running costs.
    Others on this thread who have had re-mapped cars are confirming better mpg, so maybe it’s not a myth.

  10. #10
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Modern engines monitor and adjust for fuel octane ratio and airflow/air temperature.

    There can be gains, but there is often a long term negative effect on the longevity of the engine. Use the right tuner and there can be benefits for turbocharged engines in the shape and delivery of the boost - there are too many shady outfits out there. Go with owner forum recommendations is a wise route.
    Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 4th August 2019 at 21:37.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  11. #11
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    I've had every car I've owned since the mid-90s remapped. It began with a TVR Griffith 500 done by Mark Adams and through Range Rovers, Jaguars, an Audi RS6 and my current Audi. My experiences across many makes of car has been entirely positive. Perhaps the most dramatic improvement came on a Ford Focus 1.8TDCi that I used for my daily commute every day for some years. It was blisteringly quick, economical and had done 98k fault free miles until driven into by a chap in Cheltenham and written off. My current Audi 3.0TDi has a Revo remap and it's amazing how it drives - all low-end torque and there's rarely a need to get above 2,500rpm to make rapid progress. I would echo a comment above to take advice on companies to use from owner/enthusiast forums.
    Last edited by Skier; 4th August 2019 at 22:43.

  12. #12
    If you’re looking to reduce your fuel bills then I could save everyone on here loads without spending hundreds on remaps. All you need is one of these, drill 3 holes through your accelerator pedal- place this to the underside and attached to the pedal with 3 screws

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    If you’re looking to reduce your fuel bills then I could save everyone on here loads without spending hundreds on remaps. All you need is one of these, drill 3 holes through your accelerator pedal- place this to the underside and attached to the pedal with 3 screws
    Please keep sales in the SC, forum rules and all that!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Modern engines monitor and adjust for fuel octane ratio and airflow/air temperature.

    There can be gains, but there is often a long term negative effect on the longevity of the engine. Use the right tuner and there can be benefits for turbocharged engines in the shape and delivery of the boost - there are too many shady outfits out there. Go with owner forum recommendations is a wise route.
    Modern engines are calibrated differently, it’s all about torque demand, the gearboxes have more and more ratios and are changing gear constantly, this torque matching is how the are getting better and better fuel consumption

    As an aside this is how the manufacturers know if it has been played with, if the logs say it has asked for more torque that it was capable of it has been mapped, and there is no way of hiding it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    If you’re looking to reduce your fuel bills then I could save everyone on here loads without spending hundreds on remaps. All you need is one of these, drill 3 holes through your accelerator pedal- place this to the underside and attached to the pedal with 3 screws
    Yep

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    If you’re looking to reduce your fuel bills then I could save everyone on here loads without spending hundreds on remaps. All you need is one of these, drill 3 holes through your accelerator pedal- place this to the underside and attached to the pedal with 3 screws
    And as I keep saying, I DO drive a car gently. I consistently got 44mpg with just stop start town driving out of a 2.0L automatic Skoda Superb. On a motorway run I would get that up to nigh on 70mpg.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    And as I keep saying, I DO drive a car gently. I consistently got 44mpg with just stop start town driving out of a 2.0L automatic Skoda Superb. On a motorway run I would get that up to nigh on 70mpg.
    Even if you have the latest E220 it only does 51.4 mpg, surely you have bought the wrong car

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Even if you have the latest E220 it only does 51.4 mpg, surely you have bought the wrong car
    I made the fatal mistake of believing the salesman

  18. #18
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    Can’t you VT the Merc like you did the Skoda?

    You could get something a bit more economical? Maybe even an electric car if your local authority allow them for taxi work.

    I’ve had plenty of cars remapped in the past, all successfully, and I did notice very slight mpg gains when driving normally. Not a lot though, and it would take a good while to get the cost of a decent map back.

    The Merc enthusiast forums will have knowledge of the good tuning companies.
    Last edited by Tooks; 5th August 2019 at 08:09.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    I made the fatal mistake of believing the salesman
    Anecdotally I am told that when it comes to MPG Audi's are the best in the real world, surely if it is mainly town driving you need to consider electric, if you are doing a lot of miles payback should be fairly quick.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Others on this thread who have had re-mapped cars are confirming better mpg, so maybe it’s not a myth.
    Adrian is correct.
    Yes you can remap and get more hp/torque/better response, especially on turbo diesels.
    The crux of it is ignoring the parameters set by emission laws and safety margins set by the manufacturer.

    You connot however have and eat your cake; get more power and more fuel economy. A diesel operates with lost of excess air: It is the amount of fuel that equals power for a given diesel engine. Just think about that.

    Also it cost the same amount of power = fuel to get to the same speed as the engine efficency is not changed.

    Want better fule economy for the same car?
    - Forget about the remap;
    - chuck all the excess weight you are hauling,
    - up the tyre pressure,
    - have the wheels aligned to spec.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkaholic View Post
    MSL Birmingham. It will be a walk in the park.

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    These chaps have an excellent reputation for remapping mercs often using Eurocharged maps
    Celtic tuning get mentioned too and they will come to you I believe.
    PCS in Hants and Mercland in Nuneaton both have great reputations and would either do it or recommend somewhere, depends where you are.

    You can get a factory approved Brabus chip for diesel 211s as well which come up on ebay or on the forums from time to time.
    https://mbworld.org/forums/attachme....-_ii_-engl.pdf
    scrap that yours is a 220 not a 320. sorry.

  22. #22
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Not always the case- some have the sole intention to dump as much fuel in to the compression process as possible. My experience of most remapping is generally negative.
    That may be the case for some, but the OP asked for personal experience which I gave.

    Perhaps what you saw related to petrol engined cars rather that diesels?

    Dumping fuel into an petrol engine is pointless without getting the mixture right - you are just running it to rich.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  23. #23
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    OP if you do decide on a remap, I strongly suggest you don't but a chip (or add on). The best way is a custom tune, by a professional using a rolling road. Then you will at least get to see the before and after results.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    OP if you do decide on a remap, I strongly suggest you don't but a chip (or add on). The best way is a custom tune, by a professional using a rolling road. Then you will at least get to see the before and after results.
    You could have a before and after chip dyno run ?

  25. #25
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    Qs: Is 'mapping' the same as we used to hear about 'chipping' for improving performance? Are there any insurance being void related issues with these mods?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALindsay View Post
    Qs: Is 'mapping' the same as we used to hear about 'chipping' for improving performance? Are there any insurance being void related issues with these mods?
    I think they are basically the same. I am sure your insurance would absolutely be void if you don’t declare. Apart from anything else, a lot of people who have their cars chipped do so to boost the power which it wouldn’t be unreasonable for insurers to take into account. I suspect most people don’t disclose. My nephew was telling me one of his mates gets 600+bhp from his chipped Seat Leon ....

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALindsay View Post
    Qs: Is 'mapping' the same as we used to hear about 'chipping' for improving performance? Are there any insurance being void related issues with these mods?
    If you remap your car then you need to advise your insurance company.

  28. #28
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    As I understand it the ecu map is on the ecu chip, hence mapping and chipping are the same thing.
    Lots of places offer a set map on a chip for a given engine which you just buy off the shelf. In theory this has been set up and evaluated for that model many times and is as good as it gets. But it also assumes that your car is running absolutely as it should and as they expect it.
    Live mapping, as has been mentioned, on a rolling road develops a map for your car depending on what other goodies you have fitted and also how your car is running. This is the ideal for your car but is obviously much more expensive, the bespoke suit versus the off the shelf.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    That may be the case for some, but the OP asked for personal experience which I gave.

    Perhaps what you saw related to petrol engined cars rather that diesels?

    Dumping fuel into an petrol engine is pointless without getting the mixture right - you are just running it to rich.
    No all Diesel engines.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks View Post
    Can’t you VT the Merc like you did the Skoda?

    You could get something a bit more economical? Maybe even an electric car if your local authority allow them for taxi work.

    I’ve had plenty of cars remapped in the past, all successfully, and I did notice very slight mpg gains when driving normally. Not a lot though, and it would take a good while to get the cost of a decent map back.

    The Merc enthusiast forums will have knowledge of the good tuning companies.
    I’m stuck with it unfortunately. I did a bit of work for an Airport transfer company and in order to drive on their insurance, their name and address had to appear on the log book (so the owner told me anyway) but to cut a long story short, even though I have owned the car from new, I’m now classed as the 3rd keeper. There is no way I can VT it now.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Anecdotally I am told that when it comes to MPG Audi's are the best in the real world, surely if it is mainly town driving you need to consider electric, if you are doing a lot of miles payback should be fairly quick.
    I am going electric for my next one. The Kia E Niro is the front runner at the moment.

  32. #32
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Until Nov last year I had a remapped Audi A5 3.0 TDi and the difference was night and day. It wasn't a slow car to start with but with a REVO stage 1 remap it developed around 40 BHP more but was significantly more driveable. There were no dead spots in the acceleration and it pulled like a train in any gear (600 nm of torque IIRC). Not only did it perform better I averaged 42.5 MPG during my ownership (3 years). When I bought my current car Merc asked me to take the remap off which the REVO dealer did for me FOC and driving it back to the Merc garage was like pedalling it there myself such was the difference in driving feel.

    I've now got an AMG C43 and am sorely tempted by the Brabus (Merc approved) chip which gives around 50 BHP more but I'm interested more in the driveability and real world performance rather than BHP figures.

  33. #33
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    FC performance in Bristol is very good and not too far from you - I travelled down from Sheffield to use him when he remapped my Fiat Coupe a few years ago.

    He specialises in the Italian stuff, but if he can't help you, he will put you in touch with someone who can, very helpful bloke.

    http://www.fcperformance.co.uk/

  34. #34
    OP, I was talking about this last night with a friend who does drivetrain calibration for a living, he reckons Litchfield motors in Tewksbury are very good and I don't think that they are that far from you, you could give them a call and ask.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    My nephew was telling me one of his mates gets 600+bhp from his chipped Seat Leon ....
    You don't get 600hp just by chipping it.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    You don't get 600hp just by chipping it.
    True, you needs lots of spoilers and stickers from Halfords to get that level of performance

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    You don't get 600hp just by chipping it.

    I did say "My nephew said ..."! I assumed it was just youthful exaggeration!

    Not sure how long an engine would last even if that was true. And the chances of a young person getting insured for a 600bhp conversion would, presumably, be zero!

  38. #38
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    A German firm called Siemoneit made a 514hp Leon, with just a few simple mods, and the application of about €24,000:

    Siemoneit Racing installed in-house parts onto the engine, which included bigger turbochargers, a high-flow air intake system, and new intercoolers with an optimised air guidance system. Turbo outlet and the pressure pipes were replaced as well to match the initial work done. More powerful fuel pumps and a fully-milled aluminium oil sump with two extra litres of capacity are also included, as well as an enhanced seven-disc clutch. After hardware and software tuning, the resulting output figures are 514 bhp at 6,500 RPM and 457 lb-ft torque as early as 3,600 RPM.
    https://uk.motor1.com/news/300962/se...-st-siemoneit/

  39. #39
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    Remapping

    Hi

    I can only recommend: https://www.superchips.co.uk/

    Previous cars (Cavalier 2.0 petrol, Skoda Octavia 1.9TDi) have provided an improved driving experience (less gear changing due to torque lower down, more responsive) and better economy.

    The economy is relative as the MFD's provide approx. figures - I have generally taken 10% off to get near the 'real' figure, unless of course you do it by tankfull to tankfull for your car.

    Friends have also had their Chariots done (VW Touran, Insignia, A5) and all have found the above.

    L-K

  40. #40
    Master Red Steve's Avatar
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    Just over the old Severn Bridge. They did my BMW 535d last year and I'm well impressed with the results.

    https://www.avontuning.co.uk/

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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny73 View Post
    Until Nov last year I had a remapped Audi A5 3.0 TDi and the difference was night and day. It wasn't a slow car to start with but with a REVO stage 1 remap it developed around 40 BHP more but was significantly more driveable. There were no dead spots in the acceleration and it pulled like a train in any gear (600 nm of torque IIRC). Not only did it perform better I averaged 42.5 MPG during my ownership (3 years). When I bought my current car Merc asked me to take the remap off which the REVO dealer did for me FOC and driving it back to the Merc garage was like pedalling it there myself such was the difference in driving feel.

    I've now got an AMG C43 and am sorely tempted by the Brabus (Merc approved) chip which gives around 50 BHP more but I'm interested more in the driveability and real world performance rather than BHP figures.
    So Mercedes took a knowingly tuned car in as trade in, that will be flagged as soon as it gets plugged into a VAG piece of equipment? Wow!

    The number of tuned cars entering the market with them removed for trade in is worrying, the new owner had no idea of the extra stresses the engine has been under through the different parameters changed.


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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    So Mercedes took a knowingly tuned car in as trade in, that will be flagged as soon as it gets plugged into a VAG piece of equipment? Wow!

    The number of tuned cars entering the market with them removed for trade in is worrying, the new owner had no idea of the extra stresses the engine has been under through the different parameters changed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The same applies every time you buy a used car. The previous owner or leaser could have ragged it around every day of their ownership or it could have been a senior citizen who chugged around in high gear putting undue strain on drivetrain components. You never know.
    The answer for me has been to buy cars still under manufacturers warranty and let someone else take the depreciation hit. This of course precludes any mapping or mods.
    I have bought diesels before that had been previously mapped, one a Honda Civic CDTi was giving suspiciously perky performance until it went into limp mode when I was giving it some stick. Honda dealer reset it but it was never as quick.
    Our current motorhome is much more economical and lively than the 'normal' 100bhp Multijet Ducato and I suspect it has been mapped at some time but very nicely as it doesn't smoke excessively as some re-mapped diesels tend to.

  43. #43
    Master tiny73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    So Mercedes took a knowingly tuned car in as trade in, that will be flagged as soon as it gets plugged into a VAG piece of equipment? Wow!

    The number of tuned cars entering the market with them removed for trade in is worrying, the new owner had no idea of the extra stresses the engine has been under through the different parameters changed.


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    I don’t know what the VAG equipment will read except that it was the original supplying dealers recommendation (done via REVO) and was 40BHP and ~100nm of torque, hardly the 600 BHP Seat mentioned above. Diagnostics will also show over revving etc I guess?

    That notwithstanding, if I get the AMG remapped it will be with the Mercedes supplied and approved Brabus remap.

  44. #44
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    ^ with the price of those engines, I’d be sticking to the manufacturer approved route for the AMG!

    Not sure what it flags up, prob more boost or torque requested than normal.

    Even the bootmod3 was originally ‘invisible’, but appeared not to be. To be fair as I normally buy from & sell to owners club members, the history is known.

    Wanted to do my M4 but frankly get more fun in my wife’s 981 Boxster as it’s enough power for fun without it getting daft. I need to really be pushing on to get any sense of speed, whereas hers with the roof down is a lot more enjoyable feeling you’re driving.

    No idea how people with proper fast cars feel driving on normal roads. Must be as frustrating as hell the majority of the time.




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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    No idea how people with proper fast cars feel driving on normal roads. Must be as frustrating as hell the majority of the time.
    On the other side of that coin it is só much fun scaring the living daylight out of them on B-roads with something modest, be it a three decades old Seat or equally old NA MX5. No remap needed, just a pair of balls.

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