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Thread: SubC dail/face has turned/moved...

  1. #101
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    At 6 years old I would accept a service cost, as itís due, and the crown is often replaced at service, mine was.

    I would take issue with the dial foot failure unless there was very clear evidence of drop damage. I think my approach to the RSC service manager would be:

    Service and crown ok
    The dial foot should not have failed, so I would request a goodwill approach to the dial, and the hands.

    If they wonít respond to a reasoned approach then you are unfortunately a hostage to it.

    Iím sorry to hear this

    Dave


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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Spk View Post
    Yes, I'm afraid they have come back to me. late last week I received an estimate of £1,022. This is due to: a) required service, b) new crown, c) new dial and hands (they come as a set).

    I have pushed back as I tried explaining that I believed the dial feet breaking must have been a build error. I was also annoyed as St James categorically told me that it would 'just be fixed' if I hadn't heard back by COB Tuesday, so I imagine they shouldn't have said that (estimate came through late Thursday). They then sent it to Kent, who have said the same as the above. I've said I'll pay for the service/crown but as I haven't dropped it, thrown it at a wall or ran it over, it was the new dial that I took issue with.

    I have spoken to Duncan at Genesis, who has independently confirmed that it would need a new dial if the feet have gone (he's not currently doing this model, but was still very helpful).

    I've never seen this before, and all internet searches lead to nothing, but it seems I've run out of options with Rolex and will just have to pay as they suggest - not a cheap fix. At least it will come back looking new(ish) from past experience. My main annoyance is that, over the years I have seen Rolex with crown impact issues, suffered large falls, or even times where the glass has been broken due to impact Ė but none of these events have led to failing dial feetÖ

    I await to hear from the customer service manager, but I cant imagine it being different to St James or the other non-manager at Kent. I'll report back though.
    Thanks for the update, even if it is a very disappointing result in terms of their response, especially on the dial. As you say, unless you repeatedly dropped it onto something hard the dial should not have become loose. One would have hoped that they would have acknowledged that and acted accordingly.

  3. #103
    Master woodacre1983's Avatar
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    Very poor service. Iíve never had to deal with Rolex. I have had issues with Omegas in the past and in comparison dealing with them once to get to a high level in their management I really couldnít fault them. Reading this about Rolex leads me to believe they have become victims of their own brand success in customer care terms and now genuinely donít care about those buying off them as there are more than enough others to buy if they lose some.


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  4. #104
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spk View Post

    I have spoken to Duncan at Genesis, who has independently confirmed that it would need a new dial if the feet have gone (he's not currently doing this model, but was still very helpful).

    Can anyone tell me what watches and models Duncan at Genesis does work on?

    I've tried multiple times to get quotes for Omegas and Brietling, and it's always the same Ė we don't work on those

  5. #105
    Oh yes, several years old watch, not even original owner, no clue about what kind of abuse original owner subjected it to
    But should be fixed free of charge. Of course.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by helidoc View Post
    "Service and crown ok
    The dial foot should not have failed, so I would request a goodwill approach to the dial, and the hands."
    Yes, that's the approach I've taken; I've said I'm more than happy to pay for the service and crown.

    The watch does have marks/dings as I wear it most days. He said that although there's no evidence of a 'major' impact, things like this can happen over time with many smaller ones. Either way, when the manager calls me I imagine that'll be the same.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Oh yes, several years old watch, not even original owner, no clue about what kind of abuse original owner subjected it to
    But should be fixed free of charge. Of course.
    Rajen, it's 5 years old. Appreciate that it was owned previously (for about 18months in total I think and had recently come back from Rolex when I got it). Please confirm all the times you've seen broken dial feet on Rolex watches? Thanks.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    Can anyone tell me what watches and models Duncan at Genesis does work on?
    I've tried multiple times to get quotes for Omegas and Brietling, and it's always the same Ė we don't work on those
    Speedy 1861, Mioyota 9015, ETA 2824 and a 2801 all serviced or regulated.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Spk View Post
    Rajen, it's 5 years old. Appreciate that it was owned previously (for about 18months in total I think and had recently come back from Rolex when I got it). Please confirm all the times you've seen broken dial feet on Rolex watches? Thanks.
    Looking back, a 2013 watch and not even second but third owner. That this is an infrequent occurrence is neither here nor there. I do feel it is unfortunate and feel sympathetic but I do feel that it is unrealistic to expect a manufacturer to repair
    Something free of cost more than three years after warranty expiration and on a third ownership. On a side note, do not want to comment on Soundood in his absence but he did deal with power drills and such if I recollect correctly.
    Last edited by RAJEN; 14th August 2019 at 15:11.

  10. #110
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    [QUOTE=RAJEN;5174134] "That this is an infrequent occurrence is neither here nor there." QUOTE]

    Infrequent? Please show me just one other example...

    As I have mentioned above, I am happy to pay for the service and crown - it's simply the dial I am moaning about. I'm going to leave it there, thanks.

  11. #111
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    I think this is pretty appalling from Rolex. There is no way that this is anything apart from a manufacturing fault. Have you ever heard of such a fault on even the sh!tiest cheapest watch? I haven't. And this is supposed to be a prestige brand which they ask you to pay stupid money for.
    Isn't there something in consumer law where the manufacturers have to prove that it wasn't their fault?

  12. #112
    Grand Master
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    All watches dials have a similar design, with two protruding ‘feet’ (short brass pins soldered to the dial) that allow the dial to be held firmly using screws to grip them. The feet fit into holes in the movement and the screws nip up, there should be virtually no stress on the dial feet if everythings right. On a good quality modern watch the movement sits snugly in the case and the dial shouldn’t be stressed by contact with the case.

    If I hadn’t heard this story I would’ve dismissed it as impossible, it’s that unlikely in my opinion. This is a quality watch that hasn’t been messed with by a monkey, even if it received a hard impact the dial feet should’ve been fine, the OPs been very unfortunate with this. I find it unlikely that both feet failed simultaneously, possibly one had already cracked in the past?

    It’s likely that the feet haven't been attached robustly to the dial and this is a manufacturing defect, but Rolex aren’t going to admit that. Broken dial feet are usually a result of clumsy attempts to remove the dial by a monkey, the movement being wrongly assembled into the case, or in some examples the glass having been fitted wrongly or the wrong type of glass, causing pressure on the dial. All can be dismissed in this case.

    OP has my sympathies on this one. Given the actual cost of the parts to Rolex they could’ve charged to service the watch and replaced the dial on a goodwill basis, but that would be tantamount to them admitting the dial shouldn’t have failed and they won’t do that.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 14th August 2019 at 16:59.

  13. #113
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    Sore one. I can easily see how each party has their opposing views on this. Neither party can be certain of the watch's whole history.

    The nature of the damage is extreme and v frustrating for an owner who has taken care of it.

    There's no doubt the advantage of buying new is knowing everything that a watch has been through.

    Had this happened a few years later, it would have been easier to have a more philosophical attitude.

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  14. #114
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    My feeling would be that if it had had such a impact to shear two dial feet then there would be other damage internally?
    Most odd.
    Cheers..
    Jase

  15. #115
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    My feeling would be that if it had had such a impact to shear two dial feet then there would be other damage internally?
    Most odd.
    I have recently replaced with laser welding the feet on a large 1mm thick Panerai dial, which had sheared off. Look how thin they are at the base. There was no damage at all to the movement. It needed a service anyway.


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  16. #116
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
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    May I just mention that Sean McNeill is likely to be capable of fixing this (at least on an interim basis until a full Rolex service and parts replacement is fully warranted) and he is likely to be able to do it at a far better price. I am sure he won't make it worse such that the Rolex service/parts won't cost any more when it gets to them.

    Just saying.... ;-)

  17. #117
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    Ouch! The service will account for more than half the quote but cost of new dial and hands is a bummer.

    I very much doubt Rolex will move pricewise however given the age of the watch.

    High service costs are one of the reasons why I do not have a larger collection.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    Ouch! The service will account for more than half the quote but cost of new dial and hands is a bummer.

    I very much doubt Rolex will move pricewise however given the age of the watch.
    Sorry, the age of the watch?? If I've been paying attention its only 6 years old. That's nothing! Something like a Rolex should last 25 years at least! Even fakes sometimes last 6 years!

  19. #119
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    Calling out peopleís legit watches fake is poor form and only intended to increase peopleís distress. Reddit & Facebook are full of it. You could do it there.

  20. #120
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    My experience is limited but I felt the 'sheared dial feet' scenario to be implausible, I`m a natural cynic. On that basis I logically questioned the authenticity of the watch in my mind, but had the decency and good manners to keep that to myself; sharing that concern would've achieved nothing apart from putting fears in the owner's mind which would've have helped him in the slightest. It's almost as if some folks were hoping the watch was hooky in order to get pleasure from the shitstorm to follow.

    Thankfully the watch is all OK, but I still wouldn't be happy about the response from Rolex. This is a premium product, I think it's reasonable to expect the service back-up to reflect this and despite the watch being out of warranty I think it's poor form. If the watch was battered to high heaven, with signs of very hard impact, it would be different but the OP claims that isn`t the case.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    Sorry, the age of the watch?? If I've been paying attention its only 6 years old. That's nothing! Something like a Rolex should last 25 years at least! Even fakes sometimes last 6 years!
    What I meant was that it is probably due a service by now and the warranty period has expired.

  22. #122
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollipekka View Post
    Calling out peopleís legit watches fake is poor form and only intended to increase peopleís distress. Reddit & Facebook are full of it. You could do it there.
    That discussion ended back on page 2 on 5 August. May I ask what your purpose is revisiting it 9 days later when the discussion has moved on quite reasonably to more technical and productive aspects of the issue?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post

    OP has my sympathies on this one. Given the actual cost of the parts to Rolex they could’ve charged to service the watch and replaced the dial on a goodwill basis, but that would be tantamount to them admitting the dial shouldn’t have failed and they won’t do that.
    +1

    Or at least Rolex can give him a brand new watch, something like Daytona......which he can get in about 5 years ;)




    I'm kidding, of course.
    If people at Rolex service were smart, they would fix the repair for free and get praise all over, but now they'll only get bad publicity around the web and beyond.
    Last edited by matt; 14th August 2019 at 21:00.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    What I meant was that it is probably due a service by now and the warranty period has expired.
    Well, as Rolex expect the watch to last 10 years before it needs a service, and a new one comes with a 5 year warranty (10 years if bought at WoS), I'd expect more.

    The fact the deal feet have sheared off in such a short time indicate a fault. What was the reason the watch was previously returned to Rolex, and could this have possibly caused some damage.

    Rolex should be a little ashamed of the way they are treating this issue, especially if they admit how rare this occurrence is - it's exceptional and should be treated as such!
    It's just a matter of time...

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by matt View Post
    If people at Rolex service were smart, they would fix the repair for free and get praise all over, but now they'll only get bad publicity around the web and beyond.
    It won't impact anything about Rolex though, not one jot, in truth.

  26. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by hughtrimble View Post
    It won't impact anything about Rolex though, not one jot, in truth.
    I'm not 100% so sure. Just look at the fall of other leading brands like Mercedes, where they held the title of quality and charged accordingly - or even Nokia, albeit more technology driven, where their fall from grace was even more dramatic.

    Recent history:

    GMT movement issues

    Day Date issues

    Now bloody dial feet on a current model watch! A Submariner Professional model dive watch. My own singular dial feet issue was on a 60's/70's Omega!

    I've owned Rolex watches for more than 25 years, and still have around 15/16 of them - I've never come across this issue before.
    It's just a matter of time...

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Well, as Rolex expect the watch to last 10 years before it needs a service, and a new one comes with a 5 year warranty (10 years if bought at WoS), I'd expect more.
    Interesting, that's news to me. Since when is it 10 years the purchased through WoS? Are WoS their preferred distributor now with special benefits for customers? Only as I'm interested, nothing more.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Looking back, a 2013 watch and not even second but third owner. That this is an infrequent occurrence is neither here nor there. I do feel it is unfortunate and feel sympathetic but I do feel that it is unrealistic to expect a manufacturer to repair
    Something free of cost more than three years after warranty expiration and on a third ownership. On a side note, do not want to comment on Soundood in his absence but he did deal with power drills and such if I recollect correctly.
    Iíve had two watches repaired free of charge which were bought second hand by me and well out of warranty. Both were Steinhart.

  29. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by jukeboxs View Post
    Interesting, that's news to me. Since when is it 10 years the purchased through WoS? Are WoS their preferred distributor now with special benefits for customers? Only as I'm interested, nothing more.
    This was the news clip I read:

    "Now WoS have decided off their own backs to up the ante and so now if you buy your Rolex from any of the WoS Group from 3rd June, after your Rolex warranty runs out after 5 years WoS Group will see you right for the next 5 years."
    It's just a matter of time...

  30. #130
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    I've no dog in this fight but,,
    Surely Rolex have QC regarding their parts and assembly, if a number of dials in a batch produced 6 or so years ago have shown issues these issues would have flagged up across various watch enthusiast websites and reviews, as non have the conclusion would be that the dials are fine and at some point the watch has had a robust life.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Well, as Rolex expect the watch to last 10 years before it needs a service, and a new one comes with a 5 year warranty (10 years if bought at WoS), I'd expect more.

    The fact the deal feet have sheared off in such a short time indicate a fault. What was the reason the watch was previously returned to Rolex, and could this have possibly caused some damage.

    Rolex should be a little ashamed of the way they are treating this issue, especially if they admit how rare this occurrence is - it's exceptional and should be treated as such!
    I thought the ten year service interval was introduced in 2015, after this watch was originally purchased. Wasn’t it a modification to the movement which led to the longer service intervals?

    I tend to agree that it would do Rolex no harm to undertake the repair under goodwill but it seems they are not prepared to do this.

  32. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    I've no dog in this fight but,,
    Surely Rolex have QC regarding their parts and assembly, if a number of dials in a batch produced 6 or so years ago have shown issues these issues would have flagged up across various watch enthusiast websites and reviews, as non have the conclusion would be that the dials are fine and at some point the watch has had a robust life.
    Thanks for applying some common sense.
    I am confused about the argument that -it is a rare/uncommon/unheard of problem, so Rolex is obliged to fix it FOC.
    If Rolex did it for free, would have been great. That they didnít do it is not a reflection of their quality or service.
    If this was a manufacturing defect, it would have manifested long back. If it was a QC issue, it would have been seen more commonly. It is either due to some injury or a freak event. Six years after sale and on third ownership, I doubt if manufacturers can be expected to offer free repair.

  33. #133
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Agreed Raj,
    Certainly it's a bitter pill to swallow but as say the third owner there's no guarantee regarding the previous treatment of the watch.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  34. #134
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Rolex movements like yours are held firmly in their cases by two flanged screws which when unscrewed, meet the inside edge of the back of the main case and push the dial firmly against the inside edge of the case front, making it impossible for the dial to move in any direction. If these screws are over tightened they will twist sideways in their screw holes and probably break if given any real shock. This may be what has happened. Case screw shown below the balance wheel Photo:


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    Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 15th August 2019 at 08:05.

  35. #135
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    OP states that the hands still display the correct time, so I think the movement hasnít twisted only the dial has



    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    Rolex movements like yours are held firmly in their cases by two flanged screws which when unscrewed, meet the inside edge of the back of the main case and push the dial firmly against the inside edge of the case front, making it impossible for the dial to move in any direction. If these screws are over tightened they will twist sideways in their screw holes and probably break if given any real shock. This may be what has happened. Case screw shown below the balance wheel Photo:


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  36. #136
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adzman808 View Post
    OP states that the hands still display the correct time, so I think the movement hasnít twisted only the dial has
    The movement will still be held in place by the winder.

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  37. #137
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    The dial feet appear to have sheered off, could this happen due to over tightening?
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  38. #138
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    The dial feet appear to have sheered off, could this happen due to over tightening?
    I don't think that's possible. Most likely the loose screws meant the dial was not firmly pressed against the case front and a sideways shock sheared the fragile dial feet. This is exactly what happened recently to the Panerai I quoted earlier. The case screws had worked loose in that instance.

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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    I don't think that's possible. Most likely the loose screws meant the dial was not firmly pressed against the case front and a sideways shock sheared the fragile dial feet. This is exactly what happened recently to the Panerai I quoted earlier. The case screws had worked loose in that instance.

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    Ah okay bear with me, the manufacturer (Rolex) or an experienced watchmaker would probably tension the screws correctly, but if someone less qualified had a bit of a 'tinker'?
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  40. #140
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Ah okay bear with me, the manufacturer (Rolex) or an experienced watchmaker would probably tension the screws correctly, but if someone less qualified had a bit of a 'tinker'?
    That's a difficult one to answer with certainty, but all watchmakers make mistakes, Rolex or otherwise. I have had many watches for service over the years previously repaired by the manufacturers or independents, where most screws have either been not tightly fitted or are so tight that they are quite hard to unscrew and making the heads weak. I have even seen watches were screw heads were glued on having been broken off. To my apprentice, I describe screws should be screwed up 'motorcycle tight', by which I mean firmly but not hard tight. It comes down to the feeling from your hand through the screwdriver what the correct pressure should be.

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  41. #141
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    I guess we'll never know with any certainty, thanks for the explanation.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    That discussion ended back on page 2 on 5 August. May I ask what your purpose is revisiting it 9 days later when the discussion has moved on quite reasonably to more technical and productive aspects of the issue?

    Presumably because the people who cry "it's an obvious fake" so confidently, then run off and go quiet. They can cause a lot of angst and should explain themselves 'in the spirit of the forum' (whatever that means these days).

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    I guess we'll never know with any certainty, thanks for the explanation.
    My pleasure. Just to add, I see more Omega dials with broken feet than any other make. Whether that is because they are prised off by careless watch repairers who have not first loosened the dial screws I cannot say. They turn up attached by double sided tape or araldite !
    Here is an example:


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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    someone less qualified had a bit of a 'tinker'?
    I wondered about this...

    PERHAPS if Rolex think someone else has messed with it (maybe caseback witness marks, or even a home refinishing job) then any goodwill they might have had about it evaporated pretty quickly

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    The movement will still be held in place by the winder.

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    Yes of course. Sorry

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    Rolex movements like yours are held firmly in their cases by two flanged screws which when unscrewed, meet the inside edge of the back of the main case and push the dial firmly against the inside edge of the case front, making it impossible for the dial to move in any direction. If these screws are over tightened they will twist sideways in their screw holes and probably break if given any real shock. This may be what has happened. Case screw shown below the balance wheel Photo:


    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
    Incorrect, the dial does not touch the case. Thats why you can spin the movement round and round in the case without causing damage to the edge of the dial. Its the dial feet screws that hold it. The movement rests on its outer edge against the case.

    I have only seen one instance of broken dial feet on a ceramic sub 114060. Its very unusual but can happen from a hard knock or two at a very unfortunate angle.

    Its a bummer but not Rolex fault.

  46. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by adzman808 View Post
    R

    I wondered about this...

    PERHAPS if Rolex think someone else has messed with it (maybe caseback witness marks, or even a home refinishing job) then any goodwill they might have had about it evaporated pretty quickly

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes of course. Sorry

    From what I've seen Rolex will usually state that the watch appears to have been opened, if that was the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by 744ER View Post
    Incorrect, the dial does not touch the case. Thats why you can spin the movement round and round in the case without causing damage to the edge of the dial. Its the dial feet screws that hold it. The movement rests on its outer edge against the case.

    I have only seen one instance of broken dial feet on a ceramic sub 114060. Its very unusual but can happen from a hard knock or two at a very unfortunate angle.

    Its a bummer but not Rolex fault.
    It could be if the watch had gone back for a warranty repair, and been mishandled at that stage.

    It seems to be such an unlikely fault, unless there are commensurate marks on the watch to suggest a force strong enough to cause the break.
    It's just a matter of time...

  47. #147
    Master Webwatchmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 744ER View Post
    Incorrect, the dial does not touch the case. Thats why you can spin the movement round and round in the case without causing damage to the edge of the dial. Its the dial feet screws that hold it. The movement rests on its outer edge against the case.
    .
    Here is a Rolex dial with a ring around the outer edge.
    How do you explain this if it does not touch the inside of the case ? Or is this dial a fake ?


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  48. #148
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    Chris was referencing the more recent Rolex model dials not touching the case, such as the one OP posted about. Older models dials do indeed touch the case as can be seen from your example.

  49. #149
    Gosh the lume blob at 11 and the baton are very off. And why is the date window so wonky?

    That aside, I assumed 744ER was talking about the watch in question, not the entirety of Rolex's back catalogue, given this thread is specifically about a ceramic Sub.

  50. #150
    Hell will freeze over before I spend £1k mending a watch. Makes a bit of a joke of Rolexís Ďtough as nailsí reputation. To be fair, drop any mechanical watch from waist height onto a hard surface and itíll break - whether itís a £100 Seiko or a £10000000000 Rolex! - very surprised at the dial rotating though, tbh I only ever bought Rolex new, would never spend £££ on something without knowing full history. I canít actually remember the last time I spent £1k on a car service let alone a watch, what a farce - if this sounds mean, I really feel for the OP - get it mended, sell it and buy a G shock for scootering!


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