Thanks for posting this, and an interesting video; something I wasn't aware of.
My view is that if the seller sends a watch on receipt of a successful BT, and the money is withdrawn from your account by the buyer after the watch is sent, and the watch isn't returned by the buyer forthwith, that demonstrates intent to commit fraud.
The problem is actually tracing the fraudsters. Nigh on impossible without police help.
Very interesting. I have watched a couple of his videos previously and they are always informative.
So scammers set up a direct debit instead of making a BT, the funds hit your account but they have up to close of business on the day to reverse the transaction.
So the take home message is to wait until the day after the funds have apparently been transferred before forwarding any item.
As the man says - the word needs to be spread ...
Didn’t know about this scam.
Painful watching this video and waiting for him trying to get to the point. Also, does he live in his car?
Interesting,but I would rather he was concentrating on his driving.
Interesting. He keeps saying it's a complex scam, but it's not really that complex is it.
I wonder if there's a way to tell (or if your bank is able to tell you) when funds reach your account, whether that's from a BT or a DD or standing order?
Thanks for sharing
Interesting stuff
The only safe way is to get off your arse, and meet the other party in a bank to do the deal. Every square inch in the bank is covered by cctv and you make sure that the money transfer is done by the cashier behind the counter in the presence of both parties and the buyer takes the watch away.
I wouldn't trust anyone that I do not know personally and I don't expect anyone to trust me because you would be a fool if you did.
Sending a watch through the post is sheer lunacy.
Isn't he a scammer himself?
Edit: - No, was thinking of Jamie Thorpe.
Last edited by Kingstepper; 27th July 2019 at 12:18.
Who the f*+* is this bloke?
A lot of his videos seem to popping up in my feed recently.
I always ask the bank is it cleared and mine to spend and no way of it being reversed.
All calls are recorded,so if they say yes I take it as read.
Can you setup direct debits to personal accounts ?
??
If i received a payment which was not tagged as direct or faster payment - maybe I would be suspicious...
cheers
matt
Not sure how it could be a DD.
You need to have a service user number (SUN) to start collecting DD’s. You either need to go through a Bureau or directly with a bank. You’d also need to have limits in place as DD’s can be recalled as part of the Scheme.
Therefore I’m not seeing how the funds could hit someones account in this way.
Some info here if interested.
https://gocardless.com/guides/intro-...it/originator/
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I’ve never heard of a wire transfer that was a “direct debit” payment. The terms are incompatible. I’ll ask one of my banks on Monday. If he means teh seller gives the buyer a bank routing code and account number to “wire transfer” money, that seller is liable to be scammed. That’s not a wire transfer, that’s giving someone the means to do an ACH withdrawal, stupid.Originally Posted by Duncanfisken
Also: I couldn’t finish because his mis-routed seatbelt kept bothering me. He needs to stop doing lectures in his car while driving, fix his car, and pay attention to his driving.
Also: why record a vlog in a car while driving? To show what a busy operator you are that you can only vlog while driving? This is a phenom that I don’t understand.
Bottom line: yes, wait until overnight transaction processing is complete before tendering goods. Talk to your bank to confirm a transaction, don’t just (mis)interpret online account activity, PARTICULARLY for large sums.
Yes of course. Call your bank.
Last edited by ChromeJob; 27th July 2019 at 13:25.
Thanks for the heads up
Think I need to look into this a bit
It's another thing to be worrying about,so perhaps call your bank to confirm all good,and for that added piece of mind confirm to buyer 24hrs elapsed until posting.An honest buyer will always understand,you would hope.....
This watch hobby is so stressful ain't it lol.
Direct Debits are completely different to CHAPS, BACS and Faster Payments where you initiate the payment.
With a DD you are giving permission for the company collecting the payment to do so from your bank account, hence the reason you can ‘unpay’ a DD collected incorrectly from your account.
I’ve not had a chance to watch the video yet, but from what the earlier comments are suggesting it would seem incorrect.
I’m at Gatwick at the moment so will watch the video when I get home.
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As a side note I’m discussing from a UK clearing perspective.
You mention ACH so coming from a US clearing perspective.
Is the guy on the video English or American?
If It’s a US guy then my comments are irrelevant
He’s driving a right hand drive car so guessed he was English as I say not watched the video yet.
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Does he live in Peacehaven or is it just that he’s driving around there?
R
- - - Updated - - -
Does he live in Peacehaven or is it just that he’s driving around there?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
In his videos he talks about Brighton & West Sussex so he may be local. He also claims to be a Londoner & a Fulham fan...
Haven't watched the video yet but sure this was a topic of discussion on various watch forums last year. If recollect correctly risk was if buyer used a cheque to pay into your account. This would show up us funds in yr account but actually not yet cleared and buyer could in theory still cancel the cheque. Advice was to ask the bank specifically on the source of the funding to ensure funds could not be cancelled.
No, he mentions that one at the end of the video, so the implication is that this is something new. That said, he doesn't seem to really know what he's talking about, so it's likely just the same thing.
He does say something like "direct debit or standing order, I can't remember which" (paraphrasing because I couldn't be bothered re-watching), so assuming it's not the cheque scam, he's probably talking about an SO rather than a DD. Any time I've tried to set up an SO it has taken a few days to arrange, so perhaps that's a detail he's omitted? I.e., the buyer doesn't make payment immediately, but on a specific date. No idea if you can cancel an SO on the day it's due to clear like this either.
Working in a bank I can assert that it definitely cannot be a direct debt (as such requires the receiving account holder to “demand” a certain value of payment) so if the scam is genuine it can only possibly be a standing order. Even then, I’m doubtful as any standing order usually requires a number of days notice to arrange the first payment. So overall I think this may be click-bait (especially given it takes him a few minutes to reach a point that could be made in 30 seconds)
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Last edited by Halitosis; 27th July 2019 at 18:54.
My feelings also.
Watched a few of his videos since his return to YouTube. Nothing overly informative that I’ve seen so far, although I usually get bored half way through.
Many watch utubers utube whilst driving. It appears to be a thing.
If feel the same. His personal crime issue was interesting but it and the rest of his stuff have no horological substance. At least he is honest that to him watches are just money... and they've got to be Rowlex.
What a complete and utter nonsense. He doesn't know what he is talking about.
But a cool bro drinving around in his Smart.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
There is more about this submitted on his utube channel.
Care to elaborate? I'm not familiar with this at all. Is something like this possible with SEPA transfer or Paypal.
Direct debit: A direct debit is always initiated by the recipient of the payment. The recipient contacts their bank, which forwards it to the payee's bank, which will debit the account of the payee accordingly. To do so, the recipient needs consent from the payee. However, the payee has the right to object to any debit and can reverse the payment within a certain period. However, the payee cannot initiate a direct debit, so impossible to do this unilaterally.
Standing order: A standing order is nothing but a recurring payment. In the end it is just that, a payment, which cannot be reversed. Depending on which bank, a payee can cancel a standing order before it's executed - but not afterwards.
Paypal: I am not sure, but as far as I understand the rules: a normal Paypal payment can be reversed (only by Paypal) if you can prove non-delivery of the underlying item. A Friends&Family payment is just a payment and cannot be reversed. Again, this is my understanding and I cannot be 100% sure.
So there is no way a payee can unilaterally effect and then reverse an outgoing payment. In the case of a fraud or security breach (stolen password), the bank can reverse a payment but will always need police involvement.
I don't really see how such a fraud could be perpretrated. The only possible way would be that it's an internal payment (within the same bank), and due to an outdated or faulty IT system the recipient would already see the credit entry before the payee's right to cancel the transaction (maybe before a certain cut-off) has expired. I resembles at least some elements of what he is talking about, but sounds a bit far-fetched. Maybe some with better knowledge of UK banks can chip in?
If this was such rampant fraud, there would be others (including police and banks) warning the public. There would also be a proper description available, possibly even from somebody who knows what they are talking about. Until that happens, I will say it's nonsense.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
How many minutes does this dolt take to explain his misinformed worry?
Here t’is in < 30 seconds. When accepting a bank to bank transfer of funds, call your bank to confirm the funds are in and the transfer complete before transferring ownership of the goods. Period, full stop, end quote, have a nice day.
It’s rather pathetic, YouTube is FULL of people with cameras and mics, speaking at length on things they have little or no real expertise in.
Last edited by ChromeJob; 28th July 2019 at 15:32.
‘’His personal crime issue’’.......indeed.
We will only release items after a transfer has been in the bank 3 working days.
It is the only way to be sure.
Banks are very non committal when you speak to them. Listen carefully to the language they use if you call to confirm.
JW
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Nonsense really.
You cannot set up a standing order or direct debit on another persons account without their explicit permission. Documentation is involved.
I rather think the banking system would have already collapsed if criminals could just do this on their own.
Mitch
Not quite someone could use someone else’s bank details to set up a DD. Either fraudulently or in error I.e. mis key the 8 digit account number.
This is part of the reason for the scheme rules. You can ‘unpay’ a DD that has been taken from your account in error or without your permission.
When you set up a DD on say an electricity companies website you simply enter a sort code, account number and name. You then mark a tick box to say your authorised to do this. There’s no other validation/approval required.
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In order to perpretate this fraud a person would need to set up a direct debit, debiting their own account in favour of a third person. I don't see how you could do that.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Not only that the beneficiary would also need to be a registered user of DD’s per my first response and set up with a SUN etc, etc.
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There’s no way the buyer can set up a DD to pay a person. I believe it’s a Standing Order, but even if it is, I’m not sure if you can unpay a Standing Order...
Most banking systems will have a ‘available funds’ figure for your account, and if this differs to your balance this can be due to amounts not cleared yet - but to be sure, call your bank.
You can’t unpay a standing order. If you tried to recall the SO then your bank would contact the receiving bank. They in turn would ask the beneficiary for debit authority.
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I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess this gentleman owns a Rolex
So it doesn't appear that you can set up / reverse a DD or SO.
In what circumstances can one reverse a bank transfer? You often read people saying that BTs are not definitive, can in some circ/s be reversed, and therefore that the only way to be certain is to pay cash in at the bank etc. (Which isn't convenient for many parties.) So how do people manage to reverse BTs, and/or after how long is a BT not reversible?
From my days working in a bank (which is a long time ago), a standing order could be recalled on the day it was sent, anytime up to close of business.
If that remains the case, a payment could appear in your account and be removed up to c. 8-10 hours later.
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That exactly matches what's described in the video.
Maybe this varies by bank, but I suspect that if the technology and law enables this kind of same-day reversal, I doubt that most banks would bother contacting the receiving customer before a transaction that can be reversed is reversed. Not unless someone is getting charged for all that extra work. Banks on the whole don't care much about fraud unless they are liable for it.
I should add that the ability to recall a standing order on the day sent was at a time when it took 2-3 days to be received at the other end. In these days of instant payments, I'd have thought that loophole would be shut down.
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Interesting. Maybe it's BS then? But always worth checking cleared funds are actually cleared, regardless of the method used, if it's from someone you don't completely trust. The cheque fraud mentioned already remains a real thing regardless.
This would only work if payer and payee have the same bank. Once money has been going through the clearing house, no way a bank would reverse a payment. Also, given today's continuous clearing, it would never work between two different banks.
That is exactly what I mean in my post #30 above: if a bank in 2019 still shows a pending transfer in the receiving account, then that is due to an outdated IT system and would be a reason for me not to bank with that institution. Thanks for confirming my suspicion.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
In regards to the 2-3 days clearing your referring to BACS.
Banks use to debit on day 1 of the clearing cycle. They’re not allowed to do this anymore. Debit and credit happens on the same day now.
SO these days are generally paid via Faster Payments.
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I suspected as much, but can they still be recalled on the same day?
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Don't all UK retail banks have outdated core IT systems?
Faster Payments no.
BACS Payments on day 1 and 2 of the cycle can be recalled.
Day one the sending bank can pull the file from the clearing system.
Day 2 the paying bank can send a recall request to BACs. I believe this is what is being referred to as the beneficiary bank may have applied as part of an automated batch process and then reverse.
As I say very few clearing banks use BACs as a means to pay standing orders and the likes. Generally FPS is used. Retail FPS limits vary from bank to bank. But is generally in the £10s of thousands so most purchases are within reason.
BACs Payments are generally used for salaries and the likes.
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