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Thread: is there any point in me building a reputation with an AD?

  1. #101
    Master sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    But I have a strong feeling that the whole luxury watch market is about to be hit big time.
    People have already forgotten what happened in 2008, and how long it took for the market to climb back up. They think it’s a free ride for ever.
    Rolex excepted, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Look at this slideshow graphic which I prepared for a presentation to the UK trade in late 2013, the data having been drawn directly from Rolex UK price lists, covering a representative sample of all different types of models, metals, sizes and values :


    Haywood Milton

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Worth remembering that purchase at retail of the key sports models is effectively being given a free watch. Indeed, a free watch and then they pay you extra as a reward for owning it in the first place.
    And you wonder why there’s unrelenting demand.......
    ..
    Only in the current market, which smells very much like a bubble.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    They may be massed produced but they are of exceptional quality, reliability, accuracy and if regularly serviced, will outlast you.

    This is why buyers are fighting each other to get them and now have to deal with unscrupulous grey dealers to ensure they can obtain the in demand models, albeit at an inflated price.

    No one can buck the market.
    I don't disagree with the statements in your first sentence, but I don't believe 'buyers are fighting each other' for that reason.

    There are plenty of other watches that fit that description, but you don't see the same situation with them.

    Rolex have successfully built themselves a 'premium' brand image that many feel they need to buy into.

    Mostly these people don't want a quality, reliable, accurate watch, they want a ROLEX...

    If they don't JUST want a Rolex, they buy something that's available, but the unavailability just feeds into the 'desirability' of the brand.

    M

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    I don't disagree with the statements in your first sentence, but I don't believe 'buyers are fighting each other' for that reason.

    There are plenty of other watches that fit that description, but you don't see the same situation with them.

    Rolex have successfully built themselves a 'premium' brand image that many feel they need to buy into.

    Mostly these people don't want a quality, reliable, accurate watch, they want a ROLEX...

    If they don't JUST want a Rolex, they buy something that's available, but the unavailability just feeds into the 'desirability' of the brand.

    M

  5. #105
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    I really cannot see the point in establishing the type of AD relationship that it seems i required to get the Rolex sport models that you may want to buy new. From a standing start.

    Any benefit from getting the "free watch" above is totally offset by having to buy other watches that have shorter (or non-existant) waiting list (and so are not free), or other goods such as jewellery (which really does have a much lower used value) in order to "qualify" in the ADs eyes to go on ze list. And you can be sure that even if you are on it, you will be nowhere near the top.

    Barring the odd lucky right-time-right-place person it seems the only sensible thing to do is to buy good, used examples from a reputable sources (grey for new-ish or others for used), hopefully at more sensible prices.

    Of course, the OP also used a Tudor BB58 as an example, and I would have thought this is worth cultivating a non-cash relationship with a local AD Tudor specialist. I think one of those should crop up in under a year, no problem, without outlay. But the rarer Rolexes? forget it.

    But perhaps for things like the Tudor is to jump as soon as they are notified. I got my BB GMT (one of the first here and fefinitely the first in Bristol) within 3 months from the Baselworld announcement, because I rang a paid a 10% deposit within an hour of it being released. I had no previous relationship with the AD. Wait for the next good model and jump early.

    Dave

  6. #106

    is there any point in me building a reputation with an AD?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    I don't disagree with the statements in your first sentence, but I don't believe 'buyers are fighting each other' for that reason.

    There are plenty of other watches that fit that description, but you don't see the same situation with them.

    Rolex have successfully built themselves a 'premium' brand image that many feel they need to buy into.

    Mostly these people don't want a quality, reliable, accurate watch, they want a ROLEX...

    If they don't JUST want a Rolex, they buy something that's available, but the unavailability just feeds into the 'desirability' of the brand.

    M
    In effect they’ve built a fashion brand.

  7. #107
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    In effect they’ve built a fashion brand.
    Correct, a fashion brand which relies heavily on the level of difficulty required in obtaining it,
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

    'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.

  8. #108
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    Is there any point in me building a reputation with an AD?

    I think that depends upon what you want from your relationship with the AD. If all you are after is hard to get models like Daytona, Nautilus or whatever ltd edition is the current must have. Then I personally think it's not worth the effort as you will most likely be dissatisfied and blame the AD for the long waiting times (forgetting that they are usually trying to juggle scores of similar customers, limited allocation of stock and the demands that the brands make all at the same time)

    If you can find a good AD (there are still a few out there although they are getting rare)
    Then the relationship doesn't need to be built on large one off sales, but just semi regular contact and a shared interests. Some of the best ADs I know will happily chat with you about watches, cars, vinyl or whatever without pushing for a sale. They will also often go out of their way to help even with little things like bracelet sizing, straps even just cleaning the watch.

    I think the wording of original question is worth thinking about... "is there any point in me building a reputation"
    Probably not as I think it would be better to build a relationship.

  9. #109
    I know this may be a bit of a radical thought but has anyone considered just buying something else? I mean I understand walking into a shop looking to buy a sub or daytona and finding out you have to wait several months or may not get one at all can be disappointing but that being the case there are literally hundreds of different watches of similar style and value out there so why not just get one of those? For the price of a new sub you could get a pre owned VC Overseas and some change or a Daytona a Zenith Primero (Probably two of them) lots of these you can even get a fair chunk of discount on them too.

    I get the whole idea of building a relationship with an AD or store if its to get to know the new watches coming out, get a good deal etc.... but all this waiting lists, buying a load of junk you dont want just doesnt make sense.

  10. #110
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    The Rolex obsession has people doing some hilarious things.

    They make decent mid-level watches at an inflated price, but nothing worth becoming a watch company's bitch for

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    I know this may be a bit of a radical thought but has anyone considered just buying something else?
    Indeed. Go for real exclusivity and buy a Steinhart. Or, better still, a Time Factors watch! ;-)

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    Is there any point in me building a reputation with an AD?

    I think that depends upon what you want from your relationship with the AD. If all you are after is hard to get models like Daytona, Nautilus or whatever ltd edition is the current must have. Then I personally think it's not worth the effort as you will most likely be dissatisfied and blame the AD for the long waiting times (forgetting that they are usually trying to juggle scores of similar customers, limited allocation of stock and the demands that the brands make all at the same time)

    If you can find a good AD (there are still a few out there although they are getting rare)
    Then the relationship doesn't need to be built on large one off sales, but just semi regular contact and a shared interests. Some of the best ADs I know will happily chat with you about watches, cars, vinyl or whatever without pushing for a sale. They will also often go out of their way to help even with little things like bracelet sizing, straps even just cleaning the watch.

    I think the wording of original question is worth thinking about... "is there any point in me building a reputation"
    Probably not as I think it would be better to build a relationship.
    Ian your post nails it. I don't have the available cash at this point in my life given a growing family to keep buying watches I don't want to eventually get my dream watch of a black ceramic Daytona. Nor would I expect an AD to prioritise me ahead of a regular customer who can buy a few watches per year. A few free beers and a regular chat about watches works as well and of course the occasional free spring bar

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Journey View Post
    Started a thread a while back, and having a relatively new interest in watches it hasn’t taken me long to be disillusioned with the situation.

    There is not a chance in hell that I am going to be going cap in hand begging to be ripped off just for a chance to go on a list.

    With social media the way it is, no fashion lasts long at the minute. In 5 years time, all the youth might be wearing their Kendall Jenner watch and hopefully us plebs might be able to go back to getting a decent discount and service from what are essentially chain shops.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    That’s just unrealistic. Rolex have been hugely desirable watches since the 60’s. That’s not fashion, that’s deep embedded desire for a premium product.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    That’s just unrealistic. Rolex have been hugely desirable watches since the 60’s. That’s not fashion, that’s deep embedded desire for a premium product.
    Not quite right.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

    'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.

  15. #115
    Master RJM25R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Not quite right.
    Yes it is or we wouldn’t even be having this conversation!

    Are Rolex hugely desirable? Yes

    Have they been desirable since the 60’s? Yes

    Is this fashion? No, by definition.

    Is this deep embedded desire? Yes, because kids who know nothing about watches wish to buy Rolex
    Last edited by RJM25R; 19th July 2019 at 08:45.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Not quite right.
    Saying "not quite right" is somewhat bland - please explain why it is not right.

    I worked with a guy in the early seventies who raved about the accuracy and quality of his Submariner. Even then he was talking about handing it down to his son etc. Rolex always has been a technically competent watch.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Yes it is or we wouldn’t even be having this conversation!

    Are Rolex hugely desirable? Yes

    Have they been desirable since the 60’s? Yes

    Is this fashion? No, by definition.

    Is this deep embedded desire? Yes, because kids who know nothing about watches wish to buy Rolex
    What definition is yours? Here’s one: -

    ‘a popular or the latest style of clothing, hair, decoration, or behaviour.’

    They might always have been desirable but they weren’t popular.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Yes it is or we wouldn’t even be having this conversation!

    Are Rolex hugely desirable? Yes

    Have they been desirable since the 60’s? Yes

    Is this fashion? No, by definition.

    Is this deep embedded desire? Yes, because kids who know nothing about watches wish to buy Rolex
    I dunno, shouldn´t your final point more accurately read...´kids who know nothing...wish to buy a smart watch´

    Ah here we go,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/who-...uk-2017-2?IR=T

    ´´Most Rolex are owned by retired men, according to the study. It showed that the average age of a Rolex owner in the UK is 68, with 66% of people surveyed over the age of 65, and only 1.5% under 35. Male owners also outnumber women by almost two to one.´´
    Last edited by Passenger; 19th July 2019 at 10:22.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    I dunno, shouldn´t your final point more accurately read...´kids who know nothing...wish to buy a smart watch´

    Ah here we go,

    https://www.businessinsider.com/who-...uk-2017-2?IR=T

    ´´Most Rolex are owned by retired men, according to the study. It showed that the average age of a Rolex owner in the UK is 68, with 66% of people surveyed over the age of 65, and only 1.5% under 35. Male owners also outnumber women by almost two to one.´´

    based on a survey of 8000 uk based owners, we can reasonably conclude the kids don´t really want to know.
    Yes but this is just a snapshot of purchases made and levels of ownership made in 2017.

    Most Rolex are bought by men in their sixties because the sixty year olds are at the top of the tree when it comes to purchasing power. Therefore it comes as no surprise that the average age for buying a new watch is in the sixties.

    Most 30 yr old men would rather clear the mortgage than buy an expensive frippery.

    What I guess (please note the word guess) is that the old men die and pass it down to their kids which is why you see quite a few 30-40 yr olds wearing a Rolex. They never bought the watch, they don't appear in the stats but there are hundreds of thousands of them and they will stimulate demand as they grow older.

  20. #120
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    You are right Mick in that all men die, hopefully when we´re old.
    Most 30 yr olds, esp in London and SE are still struggling to get on the housing ladder.
    I agree with your conclusion that generally folk have reached the top of their tree in terms of purchasing power by 60, they´ve generally fewer liabilities and probably it´s the decade when most inherit from their own folks, if there is an inheritance. Usually-hopefully it´s when they´re mortgage free themselves. Rolex t becomes an easily justifiable purchase, a symbol you´ve made it, there´s also the comforting thought of leaving summat portable, tangible for the kids. Also by 60 lifestyle and activities have probably slowed enough to offset the risk and reduced the chances of damaging and thus devaluing such a trinket.
    None of which supports the idea that kids want them OR that Rolex are interested in this target market.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    You are right Mick in that all men die, hopefully when we´re old.
    Most 30 yr olds, esp in London and SE are still struggling to get on the housing ladder.
    I agree with your conclusion that generally folk have reached the top of their tree in terms of purchasing power by 60, they´ve generally fewer liabilities and probably it´s the decade when most inherit from their own folks, if there is an inheritance. Usually-hopefully it´s when they´re mortgage free themselves. Rolex t becomes an easily justifiable purchase, a symbol you´ve made it, there´s also the comforting thought of leaving summat portable, tangible for the kids. Also by 60 lifestyle and activities have probably slowed enough to offset the risk and reduced the chances of damaging and thus devaluing such a trinket.
    None of which supports the idea that kids want them OR that Rolex are interested in this target market.
    The trouble with this is that we are all guessing, none of us have access to the stats and facts.

    Back in January I took a look at the Rolex shop in T5 and young guys (mainly Indians) were buying up quite a few. I got the impression that they were buying faster than the shop manager could replenish the stock.

    The simple facts are that there are plenty of younger men wearing Rolex as you see them in the streets and that the things have been in short supply for a couple of years and there is no sign of any improvement. There is no question that Rolex have always been sought after.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    I know this may be a bit of a radical thought but has anyone considered just buying something else?
    I entirely agree. I don't think it's that radical a thought given that so many other posters on this thread are (sensibly) advising much the same!

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalone View Post
    If you can find a good AD (there are still a few out there although they are getting rare)
    Then the relationship doesn't need to be built on large one off sales, but just semi regular contact and a shared interests. Some of the best ADs I know will happily chat with you about watches, cars, vinyl or whatever without pushing for a sale. They will also often go out of their way to help even with little things like bracelet sizing, straps even just cleaning the watch.

    I think the wording of original question is worth thinking about... "is there any point in me building a reputation"
    Probably not as I think it would be better to build a relationship.
    I agree with animalone whole heartedly,

    A simple analogy, if anyone used to visit record shops back in the day:
    You could've gone to a chain to pick up the latest single and get served by some teenager with a smile deficiency, or you could pop into your local record shop and hunt through Vinyl/CDs, get chatting to the owner, who's also an enthusiast and next thing you know you're discussing music, what you like/don't like, "hey have you heard this...." and he's pulled that hard to find white label out the back.

    Different commodity, but the principle remains the same, and in all honesty it applies to all things in life, taking the time to engage with others as equals and sharing commonalities will always reap results.

    I've, handled some gorgeous pieces well, well above my price bracket, purely because we've been chatting and been told "hey, you'll apreciate what just landed, gimme a sec...."
    VC Ultra Thin Minute Repeater, yes please!




    Smething that occurred to me on the way into work though.

    There's a certain irony to this thread, Go Grey or AD Relationship?
    If we wind the clock back a few years ago, there were plenty of threads asking what the added benefit of going to AD vs buying of a grey like Iconic.
    The games changed alot since then.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    In effect they’ve built a fashion brand.
    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Correct, a fashion brand which relies heavily on the level of difficulty required in obtaining it,
    I disagree, they have built a very desirable brand, which at the current time happens to be fashionable. The fashionable part comes from vapid Z-List nobodies from programming like BB or LI always in the tabloid press for doing stupid stuff, and their ever growing hoard of brainless fans who buy into all the nonsense.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by nunya View Post
    I disagree, they have built a very desirable brand, which at the current time happens to be fashionable. The fashionable part comes from vapid Z-List nobodies from programming like BB or LI always in the tabloid press for doing stupid stuff, and their ever growing hoard of brainless fans who buy into all the nonsense.
    If something is fashionable now, that is fashion - doesn't mean it will always be so.

    Why is 'fashion' spoken about in a derogatory terms as if we are above or better than that? What we wear and have is largely governed by the fashion of the times - after all we don't wear the same clothes as our grandparents. The same with watches - divers-style watches are fashionable now, in the '50s smaller watches.

  26. #126
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    If something is fashionable now, that is fashion - doesn't mean it will always be so.

    Why is 'fashion' spoken about in a derogatory terms as if we are above or better than that? What we wear and have is largely governed by the fashion of the times - after all we don't wear the same clothes as our grandparents. The same with watches - divers-style watches are fashionable now, in the '50s smaller watches.
    I don't think either view is wrong, but what we're talking about is the insane situation where you're expected to buy a load of watches you don't want in order to buy one you do.

    This isn't normal, it wasn't normal for Rolex for decades and it's not normal for any other brand (maybe one or two of the real esoteric ones, but not Rolex's direct competitors).

    What drives this is 'fashion', not quality or accuracy or reliability.

    We all agree that Rolex have those in spades, but they always have had and it used to be easy to buy a Rolex, often at a discount (Some models were once hard to shift!), even fairly recently.

    You can argue Ferrari/Porsche/Lamborghini do this, but they only really do this for models that are made in tiny numbers, not thousands a year.

    If you want a regular car from these brands, you can get one, with a sensible waiting time for it to be built. Supply, more or less, satisfies demand.

    Something is out of kilter at Rolex - Either fashion is driving demand to insane levels OR they are deliberately constraining supply to drive prices up.

    I won't pretend to know which, but, again, none of it is to do with how accurate or reliable their watches are, because there are plenty of other watches that match them in these regards.

    M

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Either fashion is driving demand to insane levels OR they are deliberately constraining supply to drive prices up.

    M
    A bit of both probably. But I'm thinking it's more of the latter.

  28. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    A bit of both probably. But I'm thinking it's more of the latter.
    Plus speculators buying as an investment.

  29. #129
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    Is there any point in me building a relationship with an AD.

    Maybe,maybe not,but it might be nice to meet him for a meal and send him flowers every so often

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Plus speculators buying as an investment.
    Yep, forgot that

    All in all 'Rolex' has become a crazy thing now. The hoo-ha that surrounds the company is more interesting than the actual watches.

  31. #131
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    I guess Heart over Mind and vice versa. What are you trying to achieve? Is it that you really want a watch you desire and paying grey prices is acceptable to you or is it that you want to invest in the watch collecting process in the longer term so that over the rest of your career and life and you can afford to do that so establishing relationships with ADs is important to you? It’s a bit like getting on to the housing market. In my experience ADs want to know you are not a tyre kicker. In the end you are dealing with a sales person who may have specific instructions on how to manage new enquiries. If they don’t take you seriously then the experience is a kick in the nuts and you feel like a peanut!!! It’s important to be personable and professional that’s how it worked for me .One option if you are planning on getting more than one watch in the longer term might be getting a desirable watch second hand /grey etc and then wear that to an AD so that they can see you have some kudos. There is psychology in this so dress smart, speak well, ask to speak to the manager or deputy and ask to discuss watches ( junior staff may just close the door) , I suggest a general chat to start and make sure you do your research and deliberately speak about your knowledge and interests and that way you will hopefully make the manager realise that you are not a peanut and that there is scope for him to build a relationship with you which is more the important thing rather than you building a relationship with them. That’s how it works. It may not lead to anything but leaving your details with them and following this up after perhaps 2 to 3 weeks again and again from time to time with the intention of simply crystallising your relationship is the way forwards. At least this way you have not lost anything and you never know what might materialise. I recently was lucky and got a phone call for a high-end watch unexpectedly so it does work. Good luck.


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  32. #132
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    Everything comes full circle. I’ve liked Rolex watches since I was about 10 years old and I bought my first one at 16, an old worn Precision watch with a refinished dial.
    I traded that up for another one with an original dial and so the journey began.
    I’m very fortunate that I am happy with the watches I currently have and my last visit to an AD has really put me off buying one again.
    I like the watches but I’m not bowing and scraping for a watch and I said as much when it was suggested I may want to spend money within the store for a Datejust lol!!
    Fortunately I’m not asking for a new heart but it certainly felt that way, it’s only a basic mass produced watch.
    The good old days when I was achieving 30% off any Datejust are long gone but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t happen again in the future.
    The other posters saying they are basically sneered or laughed at, or in many cases not even receiving a basic telephone call to say you are on a “list” really sticks in people’s throats.
    They are selling the brand that’s all, no better than the person now cap in hand with their hard earned cash looking to buy one.
    Full circle? Yep it eventually will.
    Will we walk in and laugh if they don’t offer a decent discount AND throw in another item of their stock to get a watch sale?
    For now, As Duncan Bannatyne says “I’m out” 😂

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loupe View Post
    Everything comes full circle. I’ve liked Rolex watches since I was about 10 years old and I bought my first one at 16, an old worn Precision watch with a refinished dial.
    I traded that up for another one with an original dial and so the journey began.
    I’m very fortunate that I am happy with the watches I currently have and my last visit to an AD has really put me off buying one again.
    I like the watches but I’m not bowing and scraping for a watch and I said as much when it was suggested I may want to spend money within the store for a Datejust lol!!
    Fortunately I’m not asking for a new heart but it certainly felt that way, it’s only a basic mass produced watch.
    The good old days when I was achieving 30% off any Datejust are long gone but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t happen again in the future.
    The other posters saying they are basically sneered or laughed at, or in many cases not even receiving a basic telephone call to say you are on a “list” really sticks in people’s throats.
    They are selling the brand that’s all, no better than the person now cap in hand with their hard earned cash looking to buy one.
    Full circle? Yep it eventually will.
    Will we walk in and laugh if they don’t offer a decent discount AND throw in another item of their stock to get a watch sale?
    For now, As Duncan Bannatyne says “I’m out” 
    This is true. What I don't understand is why WIS don't just walk away, instead a bunch prostrate themselves in front of AD's and beg to become one of the annointed. Such is the hold of the brand on them.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    This is true. What I don't understand is why WIS don't just walk away, instead a bunch prostrate themselves in front of AD's and beg to become one of the annointed. Such is the hold of the brand on them.
    Fully agree with you on this.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

    'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.

  35. #135
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    This is true. What I don't understand is why WIS don't just walk away, instead a bunch prostrate themselves in front of AD's and beg to become one of the annointed. Such is the hold of the brand on them.
    People will prostrate in the hope of increasing their perceived status... hehe
    Last edited by abraxas; 21st July 2019 at 08:56.

  36. #136
    Craftsman
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    If I was starting today I wouldn’t bother and just go grey

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halitosis View Post
    Yes that more-or-less ties with what their Edinburgh shop told me - its not a chronological list but based on history/spend/potential ("preferred" as you were told). I bought a GMT from them in 2001 but don't think it counted as it predated their computer records. Never heard from them since
    Mark at WoS on Buchanan Street in Glasgow is a really nice guy to deal with, knowledgeable & helpful in the extreme. He offered to help me look for a DJ despite my not being local. Absolutely top guy.

  38. #138
    Whenever I go to AD I flash my 24k diamond daytona and ask the manager: how much for the girl?

    ...
    BUBI 0_0

  39. #139
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubi View Post
    Whenever I go to AD I flash my 24k diamond daytona and ask the manager: how much for the girl?

    ...
    BUBI 0_0
    I have a fake diamond Tona that I use when visiting ADs. Who said that fakes don't work?

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