Reply With QuoteDaytona
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Listening to his podcast today and they started discussing watches. He normally has a Daytona (black bezel) but was wearing a Richard Mille today (not seen it on Y-Tube yet) by the description. It was given to him by Robin Williams (also a cyclist) and he recalled the 2003 TdF when Williams turned up and gave engraved Submariners to the whole team and backroom staff.
Daytona
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Who cares what he wears ...
I’ve won exactly the same number of Tour de Frances’s as Lance Armstrong. True story.
Can't we give the guy a break? I tried riding a bike whilst on drugs once and if anything it was much harder. I was in a hedge within seconds.
IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.
I think the worst element on this saga is not the actual cheating, as has been said the peleton at that time was riddled with EPO and other performance enhancing drugs, it is the way he went after people who tried to go against the myth of Armstrong.
Armstrong was ruthless in his charade, ruining the lives of others to protect his success. Former teammates, support staff, competitors, reporters —anyone who threatened to expose the him was bullied, discredited, defamed and in many cases had their careers ruined.
J
But we'll never know because he cheated and (possibly more importantly) bullied his way to winning and therefore everything else is simply speculation.Originally Posted by pacifichrono
The sooner he slithers back under a stone the better, but no in his supreme arrogance he seems to think he has something to contribute to the world of cycling which seems to be ticking over just fine without him.
Lance wasn't wearing the RM was he? I think George Hincappie had a white one on. Lance had on a skeleton watch, which he said was German?
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😄😄
On a level playing field you’d have got much further.
As Bill Burr says 'our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs'. So he cheated riding a pushbike round France, big deal. Raising over 300 million dollars to support Cancer victims, now that is a big deal.
Lance once rode across a field , well a grassy slope in the tdf. Misjudged a corner and went straight on and down. A lesser rider would have been off, he just rode down the hill mtb style and rejoined the race.
This is spot on IMO.
There is something in that but it's not the whole story with Lance. It's a simplification but he gets stick over and above the others because people see how he wrecked careers, was perceived as being in cahoots with the cycling authorities etc. The fundraising muddies the waters of course. Arguably, if it happened today as it does with certain Middle Eastern states in football, we'd be calling it charity-washing.
Anyway, been done to death for years really.
Probably too spaced out to notice 😂
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Armstrong didn't misjudge the corner, he went across the field as the guy in front of him, Joseba Beloki, crashed badly (breaking his femur, elbow and wrist) and in order to avoid him he took to the field.
The man needs to be ignored as much as possible.
A man who systematically and unrepentently went on cheating for years, whilst destroying all those who attempted to expose him, and lying as to his own status.
The money for cancer is all very well, but he wouldn't have had the platform to raise anything like the amount without the cheating. Eddie's fundraiser is much more impressive than that, and my dad's 50 years fundraising for the RNLI as well, but of smaller scale on a lesser platform.
It is not simply a case of "our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs" - that statement assumes equality on the drugging, as well as the competitor.
It has become clear that Armstrong was on the best formulated drugs regime that avoided detection. So more a case of Armstrong being "our guy on better drugs was quicker than their guys on standard drugs".
I can't believe people continue to give him the oxygen of publicity he craves.
Dave
While I would never defend Armstrong's cheating, or anyone's cheating for that matter, Armstrong has been treated far more harshly than any other cycling cheat. For example, George Hincapie (who was on the same team as Armstrong) testified against Armstrong and admitted being a serial drug cheat himself. He was banned from competing for 6 months over the Winter when there are no major races, de facto no ban at all. And let's not forget that Eddie Mercks was caught doping at least 3 times during his career and he's still lauded as God-like.
I agree he has been treated more harshly, but it is, as has been said a few times here, because he oversaw the crucifixion of so many people in the media and elsewhere that dared to question his status.
Their careers got ruined, even though they have subsequently been proved right.
As far as I know, none of the other cheats did that, and despite Armstrong's attempts to self-rehabilitate, his victims remain.
Plus, there is the issue that his continued cheating had a near-disastrous effect on the whole sport. There is bound to be an element of revenge wreaked upon him, having continued to evade (or collude with?) the sports governing authorities for so long.
D
I wrote a long reply to various points in the thread so far but deleted it as my views won't make a difference or change anyone's mind but...
- I agree with sweets here that he was punished more harshly because he was punished for way more than just doping in a race
- Don't buy the myth that he was just caught up in the system like everyone else
- Don't get me going on Livestrong and how much of any money raised went on either directly supporting cancer patients or credible research programmes
Everybody was on drugs. That’s why for those years there are no official winners.
He won fair and square, given the official and unofficial rules of the day.
What a great piece of trolling, I am afraid your input is not worthy of argument
I doubt it. He was the best at doping, not necessarily at cycling.
We'll obviously never know but I have no reason to disagree with this assessment...
The reason we'll never know is that doping is disproportionate. I may be hideously misquoting David Millar (who knows a think or two about doping) but didn't he say something like "you can give EPO to two donkeys and you'll turn one of them into a racehorse and the other into a faster donkey"?Lance had a relatively low VO2 (around 79–82) throughout his career. So, in the pro cycling world he wasn’t an exceptional athlete (the highest VO2 recorded by a cyclist is 97, many top 90). He had a high lactate threshold though.
In races in which he may have raced clean (Amstel, Liege, Fleche) he had good results. Until EPO came along his TDF results were three DNFs and about a 30th place, but there were mitigating factors (weight, recovery etc).
A gentleman’s agreement in 2010 between riders might (I stress might) have resulted in Lance riding clean that year. And he came 23rd.
So my guess is a clean Lance would have finished top 20 at his peak, maybe top 10. There’s also every chance he might have decided to become a one-day specialist, to which he would have been more suited, and he would won more Classics but no Grand Tours.
I believed Armstrong to be genuine … the most tested athlete on the planet - Why wouldn't you?
One year he had a bad day in the mountains and hit the wall badly - Next day he gave the famous "Lance Glance" and cleared off into the distance.
Not only did it become clear he was doping, but the gains to be had on EPO were instantaneous.
Bang on the money, Dave.
No words could console my nephew who was in remission at the time when the Oprah Show aired.
Still makes my blood boil.
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Just watched the documentary ‘Lance’ on BBC iPlayer about him, still to this day i can’t believe he did what he did and ruined many lives around him when they came clean about his antics...
But......
On the other side he did a hell of a lot of good regarding cancer awareness, treatments, fund raising etc etc...
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No 'but' for me, he was a cheat to the core.
I'm sure others did it too, but that doesn't excuse him.
He and Maradonna share a special place of contemptuous sportsmen (with a few others) for me - Once a cheat, always a cheat.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Not excusing this pair but where does it stop? How many footballers take a dive, for example?
Oh don’t get me wrong, I despise him for what he did in the world of cycling and I still remember watching him chase down the Italian rider and thinking why has he done that?
I got the opinion after watching that documentary he still thinks he was hard done by...
But I will say his cancer awareness foundation was and is of huge importance over the last 20 years...
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He's scum - it's not the drugtaking - it's that he used his millions to harass and attack the journalists who tried to exposure him - a very nasty character.
100% scum.
Yes - And he's never shown any sign of genuine remorse (likewise with Maradonna, hence my abiding dislike for him, although his 'crime' was on a different scale to Armstrong's).
On the subject of footballers taking a dive, I'd make that a red card offence (pretty easy now with VAR), personally.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
He is scum.
He didn't just cheat. He established and promoted a cheating regime while destroying people who challenged it.
His LiveWrong 'charity' is a self-serving cover up.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Almost all professional high paying sport is covering up its dirty secrets. Lance just happened to help keep cycling's secrets covered for as long as possible, such is/was the code of silence and closed ranks of All these sports. Just because you don't like it/him doesn't change the fact that everyone/ every team was doing the same thing and they only came clean when they were offered favorable treatment in return for evidence or testimony against Lance.
So be it.
It's just a matter of time...
I would not put Maradona into the same bracket as Armstrong. He did not go into that game planning to handball, it was a decision taken and executed in a moment. He admitted it afterwards. It is true that he showed no remorse but if you review the brutal treatment he received throughout his career, game after game after game, with scant protection from referees, I am inclined to forgive him for thinking all is fair in love and war (and football).
The BBC website piece about Steve Hodge and Maradona is worth reading—Hodge got the Argentine’s shirt at the end of the game and has been inundated with offers for it. Hodge has zero resentment over the handball. He says that most if not all footballers try to seek any advantage they can get, and for Argentina the stakes in that game were sky high.
By contrast, Armstrong cheated in a planned and repeated manner and tried to destroy those who aimed to expose him. His is a completely different case.
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I would have thought it would have been an excellent commercial opportunity for him for companies to pay him not to wear, endorse or associate himself with their products..
The disgusting little man went into every game intending to cheat in some way, because it was part of his game. Not necessarily a historic Hand of God goal against an international rival, but even that was just a function of his approach to the game of football. However I agree with your main point, Armstrong's cheating was much more cynical and blatant.
I must confess though that I sometimes dope with sherbet lemons before a hilly stretch of road on a long ride.
Maradona also had more +ve drug tests than Armstrong.
I find it difficult to believe that any professional sportsperson operating in the upper echelons is clean. Doping provides such a performance boost it is pretty much impossible to beat someone on the sauce. That goes for every sport.
Armstrong shouldn't get any more of a hard time than someone like Mo Farah or Paula Radcliffe, who like Armstrong haven't failed tests but have enough crap in their background to suggest, on the balance of probability, they doped.
He does get a harder time - mostly because the majority of people agree he's a bit of an ass.
It is true to say that Armstrong was a talented cyclist
It is now proven that Armstrong developed, mandated (for EVERY one of his team members) and oversaw the most comprehensive team doping system devised, made by what was known to be the most knoweldgable doping doctor in the system.
It is true to say that other individuals and teams were also doping.
But is is impossible to separate Armstrong from his doping system, and although he finished first in so many events, judging how much was him and how much was his own doping and that of his team-mates is impossible.
But one can say that the boost he got from dpoing is most likely to be significantly greater than anyone else's, because the system he developed has been proven to be so comprehensive, and no other team has (before or since) been even accused of so complete a system of cheating.
D
So you think the only problem is that he was a better cheater? Ha!
As others have stated, the more troublesome aspect is the people whose lives he messed up to avoid getting caught.
His only mistake was getting caught.
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That's true of anyone complicit, and in any/all competitive sport. As they all have a benefit in it staying a secret. The fact Armstrong effectively acted so strongly and aggressively to protect himself and so many of the other competitors/cheaters shouldn't be used as a good example to try and suggest he was different - they were all guilty of it, they all lied, they all discredited anyone suggesting otherwise - he is not in any way unique.
Just because the systematic approach Lance and his team adopted worked effectively should also not be taken as some indication that they were so much further ahead of other teams/competitors - they weren’t! Not only that, team members changed between the top teams, and they shared the knowledge they had.
They wanted to take down Lance, and they used every means and trick to do it. They may have succeeded in that singular effort - but there’s a hell of a lot more to be done if we are expecting any kind of PEDs free sport, and it’s not happening any time soon!
It's just a matter of time...
Saying that 'tricks' were needed to take down Lance rather skates over the fact that he was 100% guilty, as he admitted himself.
As far as your other points go, it is my understanding that Lance paid the foremost expert in the field, Ferrari, for the most up-to-date doping, so I'm not sure that there was a level playing field. If Ferrari wasn't doping Lance's competitors, it's probably a bit like the Mercedes F1 engine not being available to all F1 teams.
I find him a fascinating character, notwithstanding the frankly awful things he did to other human beings; which he freely admits to also BTW.
It's a whataboutism. Until fairly recently (in my lifetime) doping was legal in cycling. Now it's not, but old habits die hard.
Armstrong was undoubtedly one of the worst, and if you argue they are all at it otherwise they wouldn't be competitive enough, the sheer length of his former victories shows how much he enhanced his performance.
He is the one who got caught, he threatened journalists, teammates and adversaries alike, and I am glad they threw the book at him. Scum.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Armstrong was an extraordinary cheat in a sport where drug taking was being condoned, for some at least, however he knew precisely what he was doing and was happy to misrepresent himself to his competitors and the general public, whilst denying others the successes they might have achieved and attacking anyone who correctly challenged his innocence. He's lived years as an icon of sport and that experience can never be taken away or rightfully passed to those who truly deserved it. I'm all for rehabilitation and lessons learned etc but he deserves ZERO praise for his drug enhanced achievements now and in the future.
I feel so sorry for all those clean athletes who have been denied their, potentially, 'once in a lifetime' achievements by cheats who should be despised for their selfishness.
I find CAS' reaction to Russia's continued unwillingness to cooperate in full so disappointing for sport as a whole, it sends the wrong message entirely, especially given the state sponsored cheating involved.
Last edited by deepreddave; 21st December 2020 at 17:39.
Bit harsh surely. Top-flight sports at that level is ultra brutal. A lot of them where at it, they turned on him because of who he was. It was the only way to bring him down, the journos were just as culpable.
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Totally agree and yet Merckx, Simpson, Pantani, Ullrich etc etc etc are given pretty much a free ride by comparison.
There were almost no clean pros in road cycling <2010.
Armstrong was / is pure box office.
The double standards of people who lap up David Millar, Jonathan vaughters, alberto contador and all the others who were caught or came clean makes me laugh.
The doping programs don't make you a winner overnight, the amount of dedication required to make it is absolutely frightening.
Michel Ferrari is a pantomime villain, literally, and visually. It's pure drama, and I love it all.
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Absolutely not, as I made abundantly clear in my posts above when this topic was started in 2019.
But some others since have suggested he was still epic, and I was pointing out that we will never know, because most of his epic-ness was achieved at the head of the best cheating team there was, so all we do know is that he and his dopers combined to be epic. Without the latter, who knows?
Dave
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