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Thread: Lance Armstrong

  1. #1
    Master
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    Lance Armstrong

    Listening to his podcast today and they started discussing watches. He normally has a Daytona (black bezel) but was wearing a Richard Mille today (not seen it on Y-Tube yet) by the description. It was given to him by Robin Williams (also a cyclist) and he recalled the 2003 TdF when Williams turned up and gave engraved Submariners to the whole team and backroom staff.

  2. #2
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    Daytona

    See this Instagram photo by @celebwatchspotter https://www.instagram.com/p/BWo3ooIF...n_native_share

  3. #3
    Master
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    Who cares what he wears ...

  4. #4
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    I’ve won exactly the same number of Tour de Frances’s as Lance Armstrong. True story.

  5. #5
    Master Lampoc's Avatar
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    Can't we give the guy a break? I tried riding a bike whilst on drugs once and if anything it was much harder. I was in a hedge within seconds.

  6. #6
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.

  7. #7
    Craftsman Jardine32's Avatar
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    I think the worst element on this saga is not the actual cheating, as has been said the peleton at that time was riddled with EPO and other performance enhancing drugs, it is the way he went after people who tried to go against the myth of Armstrong.
    Armstrong was ruthless in his charade, ruining the lives of others to protect his success. Former teammates, support staff, competitors, reporters —anyone who threatened to expose the him was bullied, discredited, defamed and in many cases had their careers ruined.
    J

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.
    But we'll never know because he cheated and (possibly more importantly) bullied his way to winning and therefore everything else is simply speculation.

    The sooner he slithers back under a stone the better, but no in his supreme arrogance he seems to think he has something to contribute to the world of cycling which seems to be ticking over just fine without him.

  9. #9
    Master mrwozza70's Avatar
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    Lance wasn't wearing the RM was he? I think George Hincappie had a white one on. Lance had on a skeleton watch, which he said was German?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    Can't we give the guy a break? I tried riding a bike whilst on drugs once and if anything it was much harder. I was in a hedge within seconds.
    😄😄

  11. #11
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    Lance Armstrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    Can't we give the guy a break? I tried riding a bike whilst on drugs once and if anything it was much harder. I was in a hedge within seconds.
    On a level playing field you’d have got much further.

  12. #12
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.
    As Bill Burr says 'our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs'. So he cheated riding a pushbike round France, big deal. Raising over 300 million dollars to support Cancer victims, now that is a big deal.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
    On a level playing field you’d have got much further.
    Lance once rode across a field , well a grassy slope in the tdf. Misjudged a corner and went straight on and down. A lesser rider would have been off, he just rode down the hill mtb style and rejoined the race.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jardine32 View Post
    I think the worst element on this saga is not the actual cheating, as has been said the peleton at that time was riddled with EPO and other performance enhancing drugs, it is the way he went after people who tried to go against the myth of Armstrong.
    Armstrong was ruthless in his charade, ruining the lives of others to protect his success. Former teammates, support staff, competitors, reporters —anyone who threatened to expose the him was bullied, discredited, defamed and in many cases had their careers ruined.
    J
    This is spot on IMO.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    As Bill Burr says 'our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs'. So he cheated riding a pushbike round France, big deal. Raising over 300 million dollars to support Cancer victims, now that is a big deal.
    There is something in that but it's not the whole story with Lance. It's a simplification but he gets stick over and above the others because people see how he wrecked careers, was perceived as being in cahoots with the cycling authorities etc. The fundraising muddies the waters of course. Arguably, if it happened today as it does with certain Middle Eastern states in football, we'd be calling it charity-washing.

    Anyway, been done to death for years really.

  16. #16
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by higham5 View Post
    Lance once rode across a field , well a grassy slope in the tdf. Misjudged a corner and went straight on and down. A lesser rider would have been off, he just rode down the hill mtb style and rejoined the race.
    Probably too spaced out to notice 😂
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by higham5 View Post
    Lance once rode across a field , well a grassy slope in the tdf. Misjudged a corner and went straight on and down. A lesser rider would have been off, he just rode down the hill mtb style and rejoined the race.
    Armstrong didn't misjudge the corner, he went across the field as the guy in front of him, Joseba Beloki, crashed badly (breaking his femur, elbow and wrist) and in order to avoid him he took to the field.


  18. #18
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    The man needs to be ignored as much as possible.
    A man who systematically and unrepentently went on cheating for years, whilst destroying all those who attempted to expose him, and lying as to his own status.
    The money for cancer is all very well, but he wouldn't have had the platform to raise anything like the amount without the cheating. Eddie's fundraiser is much more impressive than that, and my dad's 50 years fundraising for the RNLI as well, but of smaller scale on a lesser platform.

    It is not simply a case of "our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs" - that statement assumes equality on the drugging, as well as the competitor.
    It has become clear that Armstrong was on the best formulated drugs regime that avoided detection. So more a case of Armstrong being "our guy on better drugs was quicker than their guys on standard drugs".

    I can't believe people continue to give him the oxygen of publicity he craves.

    Dave

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    The man needs to be ignored as much as possible.
    A man who systematically and unrepentently went on cheating for years, whilst destroying all those who attempted to expose him, and lying as to his own status.
    The money for cancer is all very well, but he wouldn't have had the platform to raise anything like the amount without the cheating. Eddie's fundraiser is much more impressive than that, and my dad's 50 years fundraising for the RNLI as well, but of smaller scale on a lesser platform.

    It is not simply a case of "our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs" - that statement assumes equality on the drugging, as well as the competitor.
    It has become clear that Armstrong was on the best formulated drugs regime that avoided detection. So more a case of Armstrong being "our guy on better drugs was quicker than their guys on standard drugs".

    I can't believe people continue to give him the oxygen of publicity he craves.

    Dave
    While I would never defend Armstrong's cheating, or anyone's cheating for that matter, Armstrong has been treated far more harshly than any other cycling cheat. For example, George Hincapie (who was on the same team as Armstrong) testified against Armstrong and admitted being a serial drug cheat himself. He was banned from competing for 6 months over the Winter when there are no major races, de facto no ban at all. And let's not forget that Eddie Mercks was caught doping at least 3 times during his career and he's still lauded as God-like.

  20. #20
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    I agree he has been treated more harshly, but it is, as has been said a few times here, because he oversaw the crucifixion of so many people in the media and elsewhere that dared to question his status.
    Their careers got ruined, even though they have subsequently been proved right.
    As far as I know, none of the other cheats did that, and despite Armstrong's attempts to self-rehabilitate, his victims remain.

    Plus, there is the issue that his continued cheating had a near-disastrous effect on the whole sport. There is bound to be an element of revenge wreaked upon him, having continued to evade (or collude with?) the sports governing authorities for so long.

    D

  21. #21
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I agree he has been treated more harshly, but it is, as has been said a few times here, because he oversaw the crucifixion of so many people in the media and elsewhere that dared to question his status.
    Their careers got ruined, even though they have subsequently been proved right.
    As far as I know, none of the other cheats did that, and despite Armstrong's attempts to self-rehabilitate, his victims remain.

    Plus, there is the issue that his continued cheating had a near-disastrous effect on the whole sport. There is bound to be an element of revenge wreaked upon him, having continued to evade (or collude with?) the sports governing authorities for so long.

    D
    I wrote a long reply to various points in the thread so far but deleted it as my views won't make a difference or change anyone's mind but...
    • I agree with sweets here that he was punished more harshly because he was punished for way more than just doping in a race
    • Don't buy the myth that he was just caught up in the system like everyone else
    • Don't get me going on Livestrong and how much of any money raised went on either directly supporting cancer patients or credible research programmes

  22. #22
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    Everybody was on drugs. That’s why for those years there are no official winners.

    He won fair and square, given the official and unofficial rules of the day.

  23. #23
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAFKARM View Post
    Everybody was on drugs. That’s why for those years there are no official winners.

    He won fair and square, given the official and unofficial rules of the day.
    What a great piece of trolling, I am afraid your input is not worthy of argument

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.
    I doubt it. He was the best at doping, not necessarily at cycling.

  25. #25
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    IMHO, a large number of top riders were "juicing" 15-20 years ago and Armstrong was obviously one of them - - perhaps the best at applying it to the sport. My opinion is that on a level playing field, Lance Armstrong would have won many, if not all, of those championships.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenPecked View Post
    I doubt it. He was the best at doping, not necessarily at cycling.

    We'll obviously never know but I have no reason to disagree with this assessment...

    Lance had a relatively low VO2 (around 79–82) throughout his career. So, in the pro cycling world he wasn’t an exceptional athlete (the highest VO2 recorded by a cyclist is 97, many top 90). He had a high lactate threshold though.

    In races in which he may have raced clean (Amstel, Liege, Fleche) he had good results. Until EPO came along his TDF results were three DNFs and about a 30th place, but there were mitigating factors (weight, recovery etc).

    A gentleman’s agreement in 2010 between riders might (I stress might) have resulted in Lance riding clean that year. And he came 23rd.

    So my guess is a clean Lance would have finished top 20 at his peak, maybe top 10. There’s also every chance he might have decided to become a one-day specialist, to which he would have been more suited, and he would won more Classics but no Grand Tours.
    The reason we'll never know is that doping is disproportionate. I may be hideously misquoting David Millar (who knows a think or two about doping) but didn't he say something like "you can give EPO to two donkeys and you'll turn one of them into a racehorse and the other into a faster donkey"?

  26. #26
    Journeyman DaveA's Avatar
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    I believed Armstrong to be genuine … the most tested athlete on the planet - Why wouldn't you?

    One year he had a bad day in the mountains and hit the wall badly - Next day he gave the famous "Lance Glance" and cleared off into the distance.

    Not only did it become clear he was doping, but the gains to be had on EPO were instantaneous.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    The man needs to be ignored as much as possible.
    A man who systematically and unrepentently went on cheating for years, whilst destroying all those who attempted to expose him, and lying as to his own status.
    The money for cancer is all very well, but he wouldn't have had the platform to raise anything like the amount without the cheating. Eddie's fundraiser is much more impressive than that, and my dad's 50 years fundraising for the RNLI as well, but of smaller scale on a lesser platform.

    It is not simply a case of "our guy on drugs was quicker than their guys on drugs" - that statement assumes equality on the drugging, as well as the competitor.
    It has become clear that Armstrong was on the best formulated drugs regime that avoided detection. So more a case of Armstrong being "our guy on better drugs was quicker than their guys on standard drugs".

    I can't believe people continue to give him the oxygen of publicity he craves.

    Dave
    Bang on the money, Dave.

    No words could console my nephew who was in remission at the time when the Oprah Show aired.

    Still makes my blood boil.


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