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Thread: TZ-UK Goes to Glashutte Part 8 - Uhrenmuseum Glashütte

  1. #1

    TZ-UK Goes to Glashutte Part 8 - Uhrenmuseum Glashütte

    After the mindblowing day at the „Big four“ at Glashütte on Friday, we started the weekend with a tasty breakfast at our hotel.



    Even if they prepared some delicious omelet for us, most of the time we didn't care much about eating, as there were some more interesting things on our table.



    All of us brought some special pieces from their private collections, so there were A LOT of breathtaking watches to look and discuss. Even if we were a mixed crew of „vintage“ and “modern“ collectors, it was enlightening to hear very interesting stories to better understand why these rare watches are so collectable. Not to forget the opportunity to try them on the wrist.
    After breakfast we headed back to Glashütte to get some more blurry car photos from the radar and to visit the German Watchmaking Museum. To be honest as one of the „native“ Berliners from our crew I asked myself why it took me so long to find my way to Glashütte.

    Just look at a very small selection of interesting watches they exhibit.
    At the entrance…An absolutely astonishing „full complicated“ clock.



    But simplicity can be as beautiful, just look at this high precision grandfather clock.



    And that “Rattrapante” repetition pocket watch isn´t that shabby either…





    This few examples of the incredible collection makes you understand what great history the Saxonia/German watch industry has had over the past centuries.

    So if you ever come to Dresden on a occasion, please plan a trip to Glashütte and visit the Museum too!
    Last edited by Mushroom-pusher; 1st July 2019 at 10:33.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom-pusher View Post


    Wow, some mega watches there!

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    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    One more from breakfast:


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    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Almost forgot to eat.


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    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Cracking museum.














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    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Would you Adam and Eve it, they've only got some mechanical calculators on display and even a book to go along with them. That's my museum souvenir shopping sorted.






  7. #7
    How much?




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    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paw3001 View Post
    How much?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I’m still regretting that I took my ALS gloves out of the wrapper ;-)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    I’m still regretting that I took my ALS gloves out of the wrapper ;-)
    Book and Gloves on a sales corner near you soon, at just a slight mark up ;)
    It's just a matter of time...

  10. #10
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    I found it initially confusing (being a bear of very little brain) to see so many Lange exhibits in what is, after all, a Hayek/Swatch/GO funded museum.

    Took me a few minutes to twig that they were all pre-1945, and that shortly after WW2 East Germany nationalised all the major companies in Glashütte under the umbrella of GUB (Glashütte Uhren-Betriebe). After reunification of course, GUB was privatised under the title Glashütte Original (hence the name). Nomos, ALS, Tutima and MG are all new start ups with some old names. Hence, corporately, pre-reunification "Lange" pieces are actually GO heritage.

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    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    I found it initially confusing (being a bear of very little brain) to see so many Lange exhibits in what is, after all, a Hayek/Swatch/GO funded museum.

    Took me a few minutes to twig that they were all pre-1945, and that shortly after WW2 East Germany nationalised all the major companies in Glashütte under the umbrella of GUB (Glashütte Uhren-Betriebe). After reunification of course, GUB was privatised under the title Glashütte Original (hence the name). Nomos, ALS, Tutima and MG are all new start ups with some old names. Hence, corporately, pre-reunification "Lange" pieces are actually GO heritage.
    I am not sure this is how GO look at it, and certainly not Lange.

    The original Lange company was seized by the Russians from the Lange family in 1945 and eventually merged with all the other brands into VEB Glashütte Uhrenbetriebe. In 1990, the Lange trademark was returned to its rightful owner, Walter Lange. What remained of VEB Glashütter Uhrenbetriebe was auctioned off and sold to Heinz Pfeifer, who invented the trademark Glashütte Original. He sold that company later to Swatch.

    Even if today's A. Lange und Söhne company is not a direct successor of the original Lange company (until 1945), they own the heritage and the original trademark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    I am not sure this is how GO look at it, and certainly not Lange.

    The original Lange company was seized by the Russians from the Lange family in 1945 and eventually merged with all the other brands into VEB Glashütte Uhrenbetriebe. In 1990, the Lange trademark was returned to its rightful owner, Walter Lange. What remained of VEB Glashütter Uhrenbetriebe was auctioned off and sold to Heinz Pfeifer, who invented the trademark Glashütte Original. He sold that company later to Swatch.

    Even if today's A. Lange und Söhne company is not a direct successor of the original Lange company (until 1945), they own the heritage and the original trademark.

    The corporate heritage is with GO -- which is why you'll see so many "Lange" exhibits in the museum. Lange Uhren GmbH, when founded new in 1990 by Günter Blümlein (IWC and JLC) and F A Lange's great grandson, Walter, re-registered the trade name ALS.

    The cultural heritage is in the skills of the people of the area. GUB had about 2,500 people in 1988. That number was reduced to around 100 in order to make GUB capable of being sold in a capitalist environment -- and even then it was about four years before Pfeifer bought it. That meant that there was an enormous number of skilled people in the village, all trained in the Glashütte tradition, out of work and available to be picked up by the new start ups (Nomos, Lange, Tutima, Grossmann, the newly established Wempe factory, et al.) All of those therefore enjoy the "Glashütte way of working", but have no corporate link to the pre-war firms. As I'm sure you know, continued cross fertilization of skills is ensured by the fact that GO, Lange, MG, Nomos and Tutima are all so physically close together that the employees can almost hold hands, and by the fact that around 50% of the working population of the village is active in watch manufacture (meaning much intra-family cross-over).

    See:
    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/tr...-fifteen-years
    https://www.manager-magazin.de/lifes...-a-999488.html
    https://www.manager-magazin.de/lifes...-999488-3.html
    .

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    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    The corporate heritage is with GO -- which is why you'll see so many "Lange" exhibits in the museum. Lange Uhren GmbH, when founded new in 1990 by Günter Blümlein (IWC and JLC) and F A Lange's great grandson, Walter, re-registered the trade name ALS.

    The cultural heritage is in the skills of the people of the area. GUB had about 2,500 people in 1988. That number was reduced to around 100 in order to make GUB capable of being sold in a capitalist environment -- and even then it was about four years before Pfeifer bought it. That meant that there was an enormous number of skilled people in the village, all trained in the Glashütte tradition, out of work and available to be picked up by the new start ups (Nomos, Lange, Tutima, Grossmann, the newly established Wempe factory, et al.) All of those therefore enjoy the "Glashütte way of working", but have no corporate link to the pre-war firms. As I'm sure you know, continued cross fertilization of skills is ensured by the fact that GO, Lange, MG, Nomos and Tutima are all so physically close together that the employees can almost hold hands, and by the fact that around 50% of the working population of the village is active in watch manufacture (meaning much intra-family cross-over).

    See:
    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/tr...-fifteen-years
    https://www.manager-magazin.de/lifes...-a-999488.html
    https://www.manager-magazin.de/lifes...-999488-3.html
    .
    What complete nonsense. The company Glashütte Uhrenbetriebe didn't even exist until it was forged together by the Russians in 1945 - what heritage are they supposed to own? The glorious tin watches which they manufactured during the 60s and 70s? GO have never claimed any heritage of the old Glashütte brands. I don't know why you include the links, where do they claim that GO owns anything which happened before 1945?

    You seem to think that the Uhrenmuseum is owned by GO and as such would only showcase GO heritage. It isn't, it is owned by a foundation which has been funded by the city of Glashütte and GO. It has by-laws which aim to 'promote and support art and culture, science and research as well as education in the art of watchmaking'.


    Walter Lange indeed registered the trademarks to Lange anew in 1990, which was only possible after the Treuhandanstalt, who owned Glashütter Uhrenbetriebe, surrendered it to him without even challenging his legal ownership.
    Last edited by Raffe; 2nd July 2019 at 21:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    What complete nonsense. The company Glashütte Uhrenbetriebe didn't even exist until it was forged together by the Russians in 1945 - what heritage are they supposed to own? The glorious tin watches which they manufactured during the 60s and 70s? GO have never claimed any heritage of the old Glashütte brands. I don't know why you include the links, where do they claim that GO owns anything which happened before 1945?

    You seem to think that the Uhrenmuseum is owned by GO and as such would only showcase GO heritage. It isn't, it is owned by a foundation which has been funded by the city of Glashütte and GO. It has by-laws which aim to 'promote and support art and culture, science and research as well as education in the art of watchmaking'.


    Walter Lange indeed registered the trademarks to Lange anew in 1990, which was only possible after the Treuhandanstalt, who owned Glashütter Uhrenbetriebe, surrendered it to him without even challenging his legal ownership.
    British Leland didn’t exist until it was “forged”, but still owned the Morris and Austin brands.

    As you say, Treuhand relinquished the name. You can only do that if you own something.

    Did you notice any modern watches from anyone but GO in the museum? Did you wonder why it was called the “Nicolas G Hayek” Glashütte Museum?




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    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Did I mention the calculators?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    British Leland didn’t exist until it was “forged”, but still owned the Morris and Austin brands.
    Were Morris and Austin forced to merge and their owners dispossessed by a foreign power occupying the country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    As you say, Treuhand relinquished the name. You can only do that if you own something.
    Threuhand was set up to correct the injustices of East German nationalisation, giving property back to their rightful owners. That is what happened here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    Did you notice any modern watches from anyone but GO in the museum? Did you wonder why it was called the “Nicolas G Hayek” Glashütte Museum?
    There are plenty non-GO modern watches on display. There is a full room of watches from all Glashütte manufacturers, GO does not stand out in any way over Lange, Grossmann, Nomos or Tutima; even Mühle and Bruno Söhnle watches are on display. And by the way, it's name is Deutsches Uhrenmuseum Glashütte - no Hayek at all in the museum's name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Were Morris and Austin forced to merge and their owners dispossessed by a foreign power occupying the country?
    The owners were indeed dispossessed by the Russians expropriating industrial equipment immediately after the war. However, the Russians were not responsible for the creation of GUB which happened in 1951 courtesy of the DDR government.

    https://www.glashuetteuhren.de/die-u...uhrenbetriebe/


    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Treuhand was set up to correct the injustices of East German nationalisation, giving property back to their rightful owners. That is what happened here.
    Total misunderstanding. Treuhand was set up by the East German government immediately prior to reunification. Its remit was to de-nationalise the 6500 VEBs (state owned enterprises) of the old DDR in order to get the economy going again as quickly as possible. As a German taxpayer at the time, I was wholly in favour!! Some claims were made against it for return of property (many by people "displaced and dispossessed" by the Nazi regime) -- but that was far from the main purpose of Treuhand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt


    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    There are plenty non-GO modern watches on display. There is a full room of watches from all Glashütte manufacturers, GO does not stand out in any way over Lange, Grossmann, Nomos or Tutima; even Mühle and Bruno Söhnle watches are on display.
    I saw none last October, but I accept that may have changed -- I'll take another look when I'm there in two weeks time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    And by the way, it's name is Deutsches Uhrenmuseum Glashütte - no Hayek at all in the museum's name.
    You are technically correct -- Hayek is in the name of the foundation. A subtle indication is to be found in this little booklet (which you might have picked up) . .



    On page 23 you'll find . . .




    Or, less subtly, there is the eight foot high sign at the entrance to the museum which you might have noticed . . .



    The second block of words says "Foundation German Watch Museum Glashütte -- Nicolas G. Hayek"

    The fourth block reads "An Enterprise of the Swatch Group".

  18. #18
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    The owners were indeed dispossessed by the Russians expropriating industrial equipment immediately after the war. However, the Russians were not responsible for the creation of GUB which happened in 1951 courtesy of the DDR government.

    https://www.glashuetteuhren.de/die-u...uhrenbetriebe/
    Thanks for the history lesson, I am very well aware of German history.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    Total misunderstanding. Treuhand was set up by the East German government immediately prior to reunification. Its remit was to de-nationalise the 6500 VEBs (state owned enterprises) of the old DDR in order to get the economy going again as quickly as possible. As a German taxpayer at the time, I was wholly in favour!! Some claims were made against it for return of property (many by people "displaced and dispossessed" by the Nazi regime) -- but that was far from the main purpose of Treuhand.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treuhandanstalt
    You are correct, I stated a simplification. The Treuhandanstalt was mainly set up to privatise the DDR VEBs. It was founded in June 1990, as one of the conditions of the reunification contract, which had been struck a month earlier. However, the Treuhandanstalt also played an important role in assessing ownership rights of dispossessed former owners and many such claims (including Lange) were solved directly with them without the need to go to court.



    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    I saw none last October, but I accept that may have changed -- I'll take another look when I'm there in two weeks time.
    It was there in 2013 and also in February of this year - which isn't proof that it wasn't there in October last year (if highly unlikely).


    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    You are technically correct -- Hayek is in the name of the foundation. A subtle indication is to be found in this little booklet (which you might have picked up) . .


    On page 23 you'll find . . .


    Thanks for confirming what I wrote above: the museum is managed by a charitable foundation, which has been funded by the city of Glashütte and Glashütter Uhrenbetrieb GmbH. This foundation bears the name Hayek, but not the museum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yokel View Post
    Or, less subtly, there is the eight foot high sign at the entrance to the museum which you might have noticed . . .



    The second block of words says "Foundation German Watch Museum Glashütte -- Nicolas G. Hayek"

    The fourth block reads "An Enterprise of the Swatch Group".
    Besides the museum, the building is also home to the foundation and the GO in-house watchmaking school. The "An Enterprise of the Swatch Group" refers to the Uhrmacherschule „Alfred Helwig“, which is indeed part of Glashütter Uhrenbetrieb GmbH - but not the museum (which, as you have stated yourself above, is owned by the charitable foundation).


    That was my last contribution on the subject.
    Last edited by Raffe; 3rd July 2019 at 14:00.

  19. #19
    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    The room of post-GUB era watches from all of the Glashütte manufacturers is near to the end of the museum displays, before exiting through the gift shop (and inevitably coughing up for souvenirs).

    After our visits to A. Lange & Söhne and Glashütte Original I was left in little doubt that both see Lange as having reclaimed their pre-1945 heritage at reformation, with Walter Lange being referred to in terms of resurrecting his legacy and breathing new life into the company (as though it was always there in spirit). It was nice to see the timelines and timepieces on display in the ALS hospitality areas bearing testimony to their heritage, including the astonishing 1902 Grand Complication no. 42500, restored by Jan Sliva.


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