Reply With QuoteVery interesting. I’m impressed with how the anOrdain guys are doing up in Glasgow...
Back in the 1980s I found a small kiln for sale at Frome car boot sale for Ł8.00. It came with two spare ovens and some bottles of powdered enamels. I had always wanted to make enamel watch dials but could find absolutely no books on the subject. I even called Jinks McGrath, brilliant enameller but she had never made anything like a watch dial. I contacted Lynton clocks with no result. In Switzerland I pestered Donzé Cadrans of Le Locle, who was the last independent enamel dial maker left in CH. He kept showing me just little bits of the technique and kept reminding me that it was a very secretive trade. But I persisted, thinking that he might prefer to get rid of me by telling me something useful, but to no avail. One day I went there yet again, and he was out, but his daughter was there. She told me a number of useful things which allowed me to get started. Donzé Cadrans has since been sold to Ulysse Nardin and they are as tight lipped as one can get.
First thing is to cut a copper disc 0.30mm thick. Then cup the edge all round to stop hot firing enamel from dripping over the edges. Then position the dial locating feet and solder them with hard enamel grade high temperature solder. I made the dial feet from 0.80mm copper wire. Then fill the dial face with well washed and dried powdered white or black enamel. I got the best enamel, thanks to Mlle Donzé, from Crystallerie de St.Paul in Limoges. It is a pure white enamel. Coat the reverse of the dial with powdered enamel also and hold that on with enamelling glue. Both sides are coated to prevent the dial from curving when it is fired. First photo, digital cameras weren't around then, shows the copper disc before and after enamelling:
I had to buy a kiln thermometer and rheostat to keep the firing temperature constant. Normal firing time is around two and a half minutes. Baking hot work during the summer of 1988. I made dozens of dials mostly with three dial locating feet to fit the American Waltham wristwatch but only two were acceptable. Sadly they were sold so I don't have photos.
Here are some of my failures:
I bought dial prints from Bailey of Stoke on Trent who were really helpful and supplied many useful tools:
Although I managed to make two acceptable pocket watch dials, I later discovered that I was making one fundamental error with the wristwatch dials. I wasn't making them large enough. I cut the dial discs to the same diameter as the originals but because a meniscus occurs at the outer edge of the dial, the dial had a curved edge. They should be made about 30% larger diameter. The dial is then cut to the right diameter and the result is that the innermost area of the enamel is almost perfectly flat. I saw a photo from the Waltham Watch Company USA of about a hundred enamel dials being fired at once. The success rate was about 30%. Drilling holes for the hands is done with a diamond drill lubricated with plenty of water. I used the screenwasher tank and motor from a scrapped Skoda attached to a foot pedal and battery. Worked well !
I have since sold the kiln because it was hard, hot work and the results were mostly disappointing. I may try again if I ever get the time.
I will post shortly of making a modern printed brass watch dial. Much easier !
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Very interesting. I’m impressed with how the anOrdain guys are doing up in Glasgow...
Thank you for your post. I have just looked at their website. And I have been invited to Glasgow ! Will definitely pay them a visit. Great that it's happening in the UK.Originally Posted by JGJG
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That’s very interesting thanks. I have a kiln so might be tempted to try some enamelling. Not watch dials though!!
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I’d say they’d welcome that Brendan - they seem like a hugely enthusiastic bunch.
I have seen dials being flattened while still hot by pressing them down and then being lapped when cold to get a super flat dial. This was for thin wrist watches though.
I do love working on old pocket watch dials and seeing the super fine lines in the numbering and if lucky some writing and initials on the enamel on the rear of the dial. Such great skill to get a decent dial, let alone to accurately paint the details and numbers. Then imagine doing it all pre electricity and light bulbs. Mind blowing.
Respect for the how much you achieved.
I hope so ! One needs to be almost insanely enthusiastic to take on such a thing. Baking hot workshop in the mid summer months, plenty of burns and bad language. I won't mention the huge electricity bills and the feeling of abject failure. I need to meet these guys as a move towards mental salvation !
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Excellent post Brendan.
You might be interested in this old book, I have taken the liberty of linking to the first page on enamel dial making.
https://archive.org/details/watchmak...ng+enamel+dial
Cheers, Bob.
Yes. Imagine that English lever watch dials were painted by hand ! Incredible skill.
Pressing whilst hot is new to me. I guess it could work.
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Thanks for the post. Good idea about making the dials oversize, then cutting them down to size.
Best wishes,
Bob
Thank you Bobbee. Wish I had that book when I was making them ! I will print the relevant pages unless you know where I can get a hard copy of the book by any chance ?
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Yes. I happened to see some photos of enamel dial making at PP I think. Infuriating to think of the time I spent trying and never though of making them a little larger to avoid the curve at the edges. You see it all the time on clock dials but the edges are covered by the case.
Best wishes to you as well. I have seen your enthusiasm too !
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Sorry no, but if you click on the little 'X' on the bottom right, it will take you to the 'open book' style. You can then scroll down to where it can be downloaded whole or by page, in different formats.
Thanks. Just figured how ! Dear Rita Shenton was the go to lady for horological books but sadly she passed away. She was not far from me, in Cheddar.
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How would you cut them down to size, wouldn’t the enamel chip or be too hard.
I don't know how that is done but I guess by spinning them and cutting with fine diamond powder. If you look at the edge of enamel wrist watch dials you can see clearly they have been cut as there are fine chips at the edges and the copper is exposed.
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Brendan - vialibri.net turns up around a dozen copies of Saunier’s book printed before 1900.. seems to be around 50ukp (uk dealers and elsewhere)
al
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Thank you Al. Very helpful. There are a couple of BHI auctions this October. As I now have an apprentice, I will check them out as well before splashing out !
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PS: I am definitely going to fly up to Glasgow and check out Alordain and write an update.
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I love interesting posts like this that come along every now and then on here.
Thanks.
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I ve greatly enjoyed your posts and this is no exception. A fascinating and interesting read. I admire the learning and creativity.
Fascinating post, thanks for sharing!
I have just been looking closely at the enamel dials made by Anordain. Looks like they drill the hole for the hands before firing. And they have a curved edge which says that they use a flat copper disc without a wall at the edge. I am very excited at having been made aware of them and can't wait to discuss enamel dials with them.
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I also had a closer look at the dials I made and now I don't think they were that bad ! They fit the Waltham wristwatch size '0'. And have three dial feet where most Swiss only have two.
I will take them up to Glasgow to exchange ideas with Anordain. Summer break sorted !
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+1 Fascinating indeed and like mentioned it's incredible to consider how so many were made and of remarkable quality in a time before modern technology when it was the go to technique for making watch dials. Some of the dials I've seen on American pocket watches of the 19th century in particular had incredible levels of detail. It's great these skills are not being lost, though just as fascinating for me is how many of the techniques have to be rediscovered.I ve greatly enjoyed your posts and this is no exception. A fascinating and interesting read. I admire the learning and creativity.
They weren't!
Another interesting thread from you Brendan, thanks, always appreciated.
Cheers,
Neil.
Remember one enamel firing project in school and it was infuriating how easily the enamel would be contaminated and ruined. We were only allowed to fire one thing at a time :( My very first test firing ended up being a million times better than the final submission.
Really interesting thread Brendan - thanks for that. The mystic of enamel has always been an intrigue mainly because you can't really fake it. Look forward to your write up whenever you get to your Scotland trip. Anordain seem to do some nice dials!
great read. thanks
Good stuff.
I like the liquid / meniscus type effect of their dial process, at both the outer and inner edges.
Thanks Bob,
I found this link on ebay. 71 watchmaking books in PDF including the one you recommended: $5.00 !
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F283438724878
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Have a look at this video for lots of useful information:
https://youtu.be/-bDtCwNo-oo
Fantastic. Thank you.
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Great post ,very interesting a real insight into a dying watchmaking art .It makes a change from the usual Rolex posts
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Interesting and obvious when you think about it info regarding having the enamel on both sides to reduce distortion. I've looked at a few enamel dials over the years and didn't cop the enamel on the reverse staring right at me(a few of the US made dials have date codes in a contrast colour set into the enamel on the back). Then again nobody ever accused me of being bright.
It wasn't for the lack of colours that saw them replaced with metal printing, far more down to economics as usual. Metal dials are cheaper with less wastage and also watch fashions changed rapidly, often year on year when compared to the 19th century and retooling for a new fashion in dials would be a lot faster with metal. Plus metal dials are significantly more robust to shock. Another thought occurs... Maybe the fashion in the 1930's for rectangular "Tank" style watches hastened their end? It would be harder to make a rectangular dial in enamel. I presume you couldn't cast it in the rectangular because of internal stresses? So you have to do it in the round first and then cut it to shape?
It's a fascinating topic and great to see the art still being practiced, especially with folks like Brendan.
On the fragility front; of the dials I've seen with damage and hairlines, they either chip on the edge or start at the dial feet. I was wondering would setting the dial feet in soft rubber act as a shock absorber of sorts to lower that risk, or do they crack there because of internal stresses from manufacture?
Fascinating read and amazing to see such skills being perpetuated - thanks very much for the post Brendan
Thanks JonRA,
Out of interest, here is what happens if one tries to re-fire cracked enamel dials once they are finished:
There is however a way to hide the cracks, a formula given to me by a now deceased old watchmaking master:
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One of the above dials now usefully back in a military watch.
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Wibbs: Most dial cracks are caused by over tightening the dial foot screws or trying to remove the dial before fully undoing those screws, or trying to remove the hands with hand levers which press hard on the dial. So they are often caused by watch repairers !
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What a fascinating thread. Thanks for posting this.
The thought of how these were originally made, without the benefits of modern technology, is mind-boggling. And to think we talk about progress!
My late mother was a chiropodist and used to run sessions at elderly care homes. I remember once going along with her when I was a lad and they ran an enamelling session. Seeing the transformation that took place pre- and post-firing was a revelation.
But to think about creating a watch dial - now that's a whole new ball game.
This is the correct tool for removing hands from watches with enamel dials. The centre pin presses on the cannon pinion and the curved levers pull from underneath the hour hand collar. Doesn't touch the dial at all.
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Yikes! I've given a couple of my trench watches a fair old series of clatters over the years. Busted Lord knows how many crystals until I gave up that fight and stuck acrylic replacements in and they remain crack free on the dials(how the balance staffs never broke is the very definition of dumb luck). So I never found them to be particularly delicate, at least in the way you'd read on the interwebs.
The Omega didn't turn out to badly at all Brendan. Interesting experiment.
Wow, they came out very nicely indeed. Years back I read somewhere that some used bleach to hide them? That the microscopic dirt in the hairlines was what made them stand out. The results were good, but yours look fantastic. Tricks of the trade. :)There is however a way to hide the cracks, a formula given to me by a now deceased old watchmaking master:
The Anordain guys are really friendly, I’ve been conversing with Lewis for a while now as I travel the enamel dial making adventure.
I’ll post some pics later but there are some on my Twitter @solutionsbydave
Dave
Care to share?
I clean the dials with steradent as it removes the green/brown oxide from inside the cracks which helps a lot. It also removes stubborn marks and old animal glues.
You will have to buy my book when it's done !
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Are you really writing all your knowledge down?
Can I pre order?
Dave
1. It won't take long will it ??
2. I have a publishing deal but just getting started.
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Last edited by Webwatchmaker; 25th May 2019 at 21:20.
Good to hear! :)
As I mentioned I've been learning enamelling with the intention of making dials.
Mostly its a distraction from the Porsche rebuild (still not done...)
Anyway I intend to write it up once I have understood all the steps, but for now a few pictures.
I have tried numbering with a paintbrush, the idea of a paintbrush came from the enamel miniatures that Gillie Hoyte Byrom produces.
They have exquisite fine detail in them, so the process must be usable for dials.
Gillie trained some of the dial makers at Piaget and Patek, so her techniques are certainly applicable.
However I have not the skill (yet) to get the numbers to be consistent in thickness and style.
I was given a drafting set by my grandfather many many years ago.
Given my families technical drafting history I though that would give more consistency.
Numbering the dial by hand seems hard, so I did lots and lots of writing practice.
I think this is a better way to go than with a paintbrush for me.
Then I did some practice with normal 'enamel' paint on a blank:
Before numbering some dial shaped objects.
These look almost passable
I've also experimented with applied indicies:
The dial is brushed sunburst under the blue enamel and is stunning in real life. Its very hard to take a picture of it that does it justice.
I tend to post 'as I'm going' pics on twitter, but I'll eventually get a process that I can repeat and write it up to share.
We lose to many skills because of pointless (IMO) secretive practices. Skills take time and effort to obtain - there are few short cuts anyway.
Dave
Ah here, you guys are coming out of the woodwork.
I know what you mean about hand drawing numerals. Not easy at all and I'd be fairly handy with drawing in general. Down the years I've relumed a few old trench watches and they're kinda passable, but beyond the tragedy of that saga, it gave me a huge respect for the Radium girls' skill. What would take me an hour and a couple of cups of strong tea/drink, they'd have done in a minute or two.
Your drafting set brought up memories as I have my dad's. Many years ago he had given it to my uncle, but after both he and my dad passed away it came to me. Your grandfather's look much more fancy mind you, what with the ivory handles. :)
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