How is Grand Seiko compare to R****?

[km9]

Hi All,

Not sure if I should have started another controversial post as almost everytime Rolex is mentioned in the title, things go downhill.
Anyway, I am fairly new Rolex convert and beginning to understand what's the fuss is about.
I currently have Explorer 214270 and Milgauss Z Blue.
I am really enjoying wearing both and I would say in terms of comfort, Explorer wins hands down, Milgauss however is so intriguing. It is really very un-Rolex in terms of dial and crystal colours, the second hand and really pops out and fun.
Anyway, I am beginning to notice a lot about Grand Seiko watches, especially Heritage collection.
It is really elegant and timeless. From what I read, the dial on these watches are amazing too also the very fine movements.
How would you compare the two brands?
Should I dip my toes into GS brand or I should just stick to tried and tested??

Thanks everyone in advance.

Best,

km9


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[paskinner]

Well......to me, Rolex are probably the best overall watch brand. But how many do you want? I decided one, possibly two, models were enough. They’re all quite alike really, in a good way.
If you agree, then you can spread your Wings among the competitors. I like GS, and always seem to own one or two. But I enjoy rival brands as well. Comparisons are fun, but in the end there are a lot of fine watches, plenty of variety.

[Foxy100]

Only you can answer this, go and find your nearest GS dealer and try on some of their watches. I have Rolex and GS and also drive an MX-5. You too could be cool like me.

[jk103]

Only you can answer this, go and find your nearest GS dealer and try on some of their watches. I have Rolex and GS and also drive an MX-5. You too could be cool like me.

Foxy an MX-5 really? Isn't that a girls car!! Always figured you to be an Aston Martin guy oh well

[cheesycake7]

https://www.grand-seiko.com/uk-en/special/gtr/

Any idea on how hard it will be to obtain one of this? Thoughts on the price point? (EUR 21k from a website)

[learningtofly]

Only you can answer this, go and find your nearest GS dealer and try on some of their watches. I have Rolex and GS and also drive an MX-5. You too could be cool like me.

You're a motorbike short of a full set. Close but no cigar.

[GTuned]

km9, if this helps, I have owned multiple Rolexes, JLC models and a GS (SBGR099) among many other watches. The Rolexes I have owned are all sports models (Deep Blue, SD4K, Explorer II, Ceramic Sub no Date, GMT2 BLNR etc) and the GS was a much dressier watch so I don't think it is really fair to compare them. The dressier JLCs and GS compare better, and in terms of finish (no magnifying glass used) are on par. The GS however was less than half price of any of its peers (simple 3-hand model). Apparently, under a magnification, the GS is spectacular and in comparison photos I have seen online is way above anything near its price range including Rolex and Omega. But really, does it matter?

The bracelet is great on my GS, it is solid and I have had no issues. Rolex bracelets are fantastic, but only really the clasps set them apart on some models due to the micro adjustment capabilities. Other than that, they are the same, and this a dress watch so it is normal for it to not have a micro adjustment clasp.

The movement on my GS is nothing special like what GS is capable of producing, however it is well within its spec and I specifically bought my GS for its size 42mm and simplicity of design being a pure 3 hander, and frankly Rolex has nothing in that size without an ugly cyclops. GS is currently ahead of most (all?) brands in the world for mechanical accuracy on their top of the line movement (Caliber 9R01) and have a huge range of movements that they make mechanical, quartz and hybrid and their innovation and dedication to diversity is quite impressive. Very few, if any other brand can claim that.

GS models are very modest and I chose a Seiko labeled dial Grand Seiko (SBGR299 is the updated dial version) on purpose because they fly so far under the radar that no one even bats an eyelid. I've even had self proclaimed watch experts ask me why I downgraded to a lowly Seiko. Mission Accomplished in that case - I genuinely want to avoid the watch hysteria going on these days, especially the Rolex hysteria. Rolex make excellent watches, but the grey market prices are stupid and, to me, do not justify the value. Furthermore the hoards of fans that have suddenly "discovered" Rolex and make endless desperate comments on social media are putting me off - you can practically feel the drool and desperation oozing through the screen...

As far as in-house manufacturing facilities/capabilities go, both Rolex (and its group i.e. Tudor etc) and Seiko and its group are both impressive in their own rights, with Seiko spanning the entire range of budgets and styles and Rolex being focused on a smaller part. The big difference being that in Japan the concept that you produce from the lowliest of products through to luxury is nothing to be ashamed of. The brand segregation and rebranding over the years is a Western influenced idea - Toyota had to rebrand its higher end products to Lexus, Nissan brought out Infiniti etc. This explains modest branding efforts by Seiko/Grand Seiko and why they have modest grey market pricing.

In conclusion, I would say you get far more value from a Grand Seiko, but we all know that most buyers make decisions based on aesthetic and brand perception. Buy what pleases you, and not necessarily the forum, it is on your wrist after all :)

[crazyp]

In conclusion, I would say you get far more value from a Grand Seiko, but we all know that most buyers make decisions based on aesthetic and brand perception. Buy what pleases you, and not necessarily the forum, it is on your wrist after all :)

I'm not so sure anymore about this. Most brands in the same tier have really started upping their prices - including GS. Look at the cost of their new diver, 10k. At retail (and I do emphasise this particular part) it seems to me Rolex SS sports pricing is on par with the rest of the industry (or the rest have caught up to Rolex pricing). And Rolex do a much, much better bracelet than most (still).

I would say there is much more fun to be had if you look outside of Rolex, frankly a lot their designs are just too conservative and boring for me.

[noTAGlove]

Not impressed by GS at all. Cheap trinkety bracelets. Rolex bracelets are top notch.

In the shop windows (Chisholm Hunter - Kingston) the GS looked cheap compared to the Oris watches.

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-Underwhelmed

[km9]

I still want to add Sub ND and JLC Reverso to my collection so may be GS is kind of sideway step??
As you can see from the pictures below, thinking of releasing Sinn and Zenith.

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[gbn13]

Rolex vs Grand Seiko often end up with polarised views being expressed.

My Z-Blue happily exists in the same box as a GS. If you like the Z-Blue, I reckon you will like the dials on many GS.

[km9]

Rolex vs Grand Seiko often end up with polarised views being expressed.

My Z-Blue happily exists in the same box as a GS. If you like the Z-Blue, I reckon you will like the dials on many GS.

That's a beautiful dial.

I actually like this GMT version.

*picture taken from GS website.

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[ryanb741]

GS is much higher quality at the same price point. Rolex has better residuals, better bracelets but you sadly suffer from a lack of originality by owning one. Answer is get both!

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[bry nylon]

Seems like a long time since we have had a GS vs Rolex thread

I like the GS bracelet and the slim clasp on them, always found them comfortable on the two examples I have bought and sold. I think the dials and polished markers are where GS impresses..
At least they (GS), are more readily available now, whereas new (sports), Rolex's are made out of 'unobtanium' !

[ColDaspin]

GS is much higher quality at the same price point. Rolex has better residuals, better bracelets but you sadly suffer from a lack of originality by owning one. Answer is get both!

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Agreed.

And, if I were the OP and seemingly a little nervous, I'd start with a quartz model. Case and dial finishing is at the same level as all the other GSs and you can pick up a used one for less than 1500 quid. Something like the SBGV025/225 would give you a bit of a Datejust vibe, for example, but better!

[paskinner]

But what if you wear both GS and Rolex...as most of us do. What are you then, apart from prone to buying too many watches?

[notenoughwrists]

But what if you wear both GS and Rolex...as most of us do. What are you then, apart from prone to buying too many watches?

At the same time? :)


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[paskinner]

At the same time? :)


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There was a guy at work who wore a watch on each wrist; he looked a complete plonker.

[KingKitega]

But what if you wear both GS and Rolex...as most of us do. What are you then, apart from prone to buying too many watches?

You don't need to wear anything Peter. We all know you're a watch enthusiast! My meaning is more if you saw someone wearing a GS on the street, you will know they are really into watches.

Theres really no right answer as we're all different. Each brand conveys something unique to me and that's why I like them.

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[RAJEN]

A polarising question which will be met with subjective opinions on either side.
You should look at GS and decide for yourself. No point in relying on opinion of people you don't know and have no idea of their biases. What is not subjective is residuals.
I think quality is crazy comparable no matter what anyone says. GS is not better, even if some like to shout from rooftop.
Rolex scores IMO in residuals, bracelet and crown action. I have or have owned a wide spectrum of watches and very few can rival Rolex/Tudor's crown action/feel. Just feels so damn secure.
GS are lovely and much less common which might be a consideration for some. Spring drive is an excellent movement.
No point in thinking about- How much for a Seiko???
I gravitate towards dive watches and GS diver is up there with Rolex submariner. There is no 'should' in this hobby. There are no rules. Do your homework and decide for yourself.

[mondie]

I gravitate towards five watches and GS diver if up there with Rolex submariner. There is no 'should' in this hobby. There are no rules. Do your homework and decide for yourself.

As an owner of both, yes it is. I don't really wear my Sub at all anymore, I much prefer the GS for many reasons which include accuracy, exquisite quality, that sweeping second hand, 72hr PR, micro-adjust bracelet and the size at 44mm being perfect to me. Rolex has a cachet no other brand has, if you can look past that you may see things differently. If that matters to you get a Sub

IMG_20190514_161227 (Medium) by Simon Gee, on Flickr

[notenoughwrists]

Having owned a Sub date, a GMT, and a datejust, and picking up my first GS tonight, I will let you know my considered opinion!


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[peterdo]

I own a GS Peacock dial, it’s my office watch, phenomenal finishing, outstanding value and tends to get noticed by people who care about watches!

I don’t own a Rolex, I struggle with having £10k in cash yet having to convince someone to be kind enough to take it from me for a watch I want. That said, if the option came up to purchase a new BLNR or Root Beer then I’m in the Rolex owner group...but I can’t justify paying over RRP for a pre-owned watch that is basically mass produced.

The GS will take a hit on residuals, but you can get discounts and LEs will hold up well.




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[km9]

I own a GS Peacock dial, it’s my office watch, phenomenal finishing, outstanding value and tends to get noticed by people who care about watches!

I don’t own a Rolex, I struggle with having £10k in cash yet having to convince someone to be kind enough to take it from me for a watch I want. That said, if the option came up to purchase a new BLNR or Root Beer then I’m in the Rolex owner group...but I can’t justify paying over RRP for a pre-owned watch that is basically mass produced.

The GS will take a hit on residuals, but you can get discounts and LEs will hold up well.




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Wow, that is a beauty.

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[Wooster]

Rolex has 5 letters, Grand Seiko has 10, so it's two times better.


... I own a 16600 and a SBGR061, love them both. Different purposes, different design grammar, different approaches to marketing. Not sure how to compare them. Both very well made, should be, given the price. I wear them depending on my momentary mood. I've no hesitation to recommend either of them to a watch collector.

Cheers,
Christian

[KurtKnispel]

Irrespective of your choice there will be divisive opinions. To preface my post I have no real issue with either brand. I have owned Rolex watches and all have left me slightly underwhelmed. The brand cache seems to draw more than actual horological offerings. I nearly fell asleep when checking the time on my Milgauss. Not that I take issue with Rolex but a bit of colour on a bezel (that 99% of people won't realistically use) means a huge price hike and just highlights how herd mentality works. Add to that miserly residuals talk and we have a winner. Just think, some Rolex owners can discuss the couple of grand they have made as they go for Chemo or when standing at their wife's funeral.
Grand Seiko offers high end micro engineering but the name is a sales killer/snob deterrent. As for Quartz variants what's the point as they're just a well sculptured piece with kitchen clock internals.

I could buy both at some point in the future so ignore the above.

[ODP]

Irrespective of your choice there will be divisive opinions. To preface my post I have no real issue with either brand. I have owned Rolex watches and all have left me slightly underwhelmed. The brand cache seems to draw more than actual horological offerings. I nearly fell asleep when checking the time on my Milgauss. Not that I take issue with Rolex but a bit of colour on a bezel (that 99% of people won't realistically use) means a huge price hike and just highlights how herd mentality works. Add to that miserly residuals talk and we have a winner. Just think, some Rolex owners can discuss the couple of grand they have made as they go for Chemo or when standing at their wife's funeral.
Grand Seiko offers high end micro engineering but the name is a sales killer/snob deterrent. As for Quartz variants what's the point as they're just a well sculptured piece with kitchen clock internals.

I could buy both at some point in the future so ignore the above.

Not sure I agree about kitchen clock internals. Have you read up on the level of engineering involved?

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/se...ith-caliber-9f

[KingKitega]

I love both brands!


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[Martylaa]

When Grand Seiko make a 40mm GMT Spring Drive then I'll be first in line because the watches are quality personified, a Rolex GMT 17610 is my dream watch but that spring drive movement is something else, its hypnotic...

[paskinner]

There’s an interesting article by Ariel Adams in ‘a blog to watch’. In a nutshell, he suggests that Rolex utterly dominates the entire luxury watch sector, and that other brands benefit from the huge market it creates. In one sense, they all need Rolex to keep the market alive.
Which makes the ‘which is better’ stuff a bit pointless. In this account, Rolex is the sun around which other brands revolve.

[bedlam]

In this account, Rolex is the sun around which other brands revolve.

Well on TZ-UK at least.

[ryanb741]

Speaking to some US watch folks GS is making huge inroads there at the ADs. Obviously nothing to trouble Rolex and Omega as yet but it is outselling brands such as Ulysse Nardin and Glashutte Original. One AD has seen GS overtake Panerai sales. US GS prices are around 20% lower than the UK though. The Snowflake is very hard to come by in certain ADs. Interestingly in Asia outside of Japan very few people are buying GS, Omega in particular is taking market share from Rolex in the mid-tier sector with the high end sector still very much dominated by Patek etc.

UK high street GS Ads such as Chisholm Hunter get very little 'off the street' business for GS however what they were saying is that the fact people look in the windows at the watches and see Seikos marked up at £8k+ is opening the eyes of many people. This was also one of the first ADs to get Tudor in the UK and they saw initially slow take up of Tudors however it's a different market now.

[Toshk]

^ It is. I bought the SBGC231 earlier. Delivery in two weeks.

[JP Chestnut]

I'm a Rolex person, but I really like GS as well. A lot of them are too large for me, but the quartz are probably what I'd buy if I wanted a nice quartz watch.

I liked GS a lot more when they said "Seiko" and were cheaper than they are now. Does anyone remember the thread on here where the person's GS hands flaked and GS wouldn't help him? I remember leaving that thread disappointed in the brand.

[bedlam]

Does anyone remember the thread on here where the person's GS hands flaked and GS wouldn't help him?

No.

There definitely was a thread on the GS forum of WUS about 2 months or so ago where a guy found a mark on one of the hands (that needed magnifying to be seen) on a GS and Seiko fixed it without bother.

[JP Chestnut]

No.

There definitely was a thread on the GS forum of WUS about 2 months or so ago where a guy found a mark on one of the hands (that needed magnifying to be seen) on a GS and Seiko fixed it without bother.

Found it:
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...+seiko+problem

Flakey markers, not hands. I'll reread it now.

[bedlam]

Found it:
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...+seiko+problem

Flakey markers, not hands. I'll reread it now.

Your linked thread discusses a second hand watch paskinner bought, that appeared to have a small amount of (possibly) moisture damage on some markers, that had not even been looked at by Seiko.

How the heck did you go from that to a GS had damage on the hands and the customer service from Seiko was terrible?

[Martylaa]

^ It is. I bought the SBGC231 earlier. Delivery in two weeks.

It’s 44.5mm???


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[Toshk]

It’s 44.5mm???


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Yes, but it has everything under the hood. Chrono, GMT, date and PR. Cased in the best titanium alloy with 200m WR.

[paskinner]

Old news, but make no mistake...the watch had dreadful plating which blistered . The guy I sold it to, very cheap, tackled GS but eventually gave-up in disgust. They didn’t want to know. But they did want £800 to replace the’ bubbling ‘ rhodium plated markers, which were supposed to be corrosion proof.

I still buy GS watches,and like them, no other trouble, but Rolex, and firms like Omega, are, in my experience, more responsive to their customers.
Still, this was a couple of years ago; maybe things have changed.

[bedlam]

Old news, but make no mistake...the watch had dreadful plating which blistered . The guy I sold it to, very cheap, tackled GS but eventually gave-up in disgust. They didn’t want to know. But they did want £800 to replace the’ bubbling ‘ rhodium plated markers, which were supposed to be corrosion proof.

Rhodium is only corrosion resistant.

[robert75]

Old news, but make no mistake...the watch had dreadful plating which blistered . The guy I sold it to, very cheap, tackled GS but eventually gave-up in disgust. They didn’t want to know. But they did want £800 to replace the’ bubbling ‘ rhodium plated markers, which were supposed to be corrosion proof.

I still buy GS watches,and like them, no other trouble, but Rolex, and firms like Omega, are, in my experience, more responsive to their customers.
Still, this was a couple of years ago; maybe things have changed.

It’s this what has always put me off buying one. That and I had a similar experience with Seiko customer service/quality control a few years ago and was not overly impressed.

Would I buy a cheaper Seiko? Yes. Would I spend several grand on one? Doubt it.

[geoffcotton]

I will never understand why folk pay mental money for a Seiko. £200 is my max limit for a Seiko.

Taxi.

[ryanb741]

I will never understand why folk pay mental money for a Seiko. £200 is my max limit for a Seiko.

Taxi.

Pretty good chance it's because they are worth every penny and give pretty much the best bang for the buck at that price point. Appreciate for many folks the name on the dial is important but for true horological enthusiasts (as opposed to people who say they collect watches when reality they have a Sub and a Speedy Pro) GS represent something marvellous.

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[JGJG]

Pretty good chance it's because they are worth every penny and give pretty much the best bang for the buck at that price point. Appreciate for many folks the name on the dial is important but for true horological enthusiasts (as opposed to people who say they collect watches when reality they have a Sub and a Speedy Pro) GS represent something marvellous.

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That quite fairly sums it up I think.

[RAJEN]

I will never understand why folk pay mental money for a Seiko. £200 is my max limit for a Seiko.

Taxi.

I think that is a rather extreme opinion. The days of 'how much for a Seiko??' have passed. GS have established themselves as being worthy of the price on the tag. Not everyone may see it that way but their prices make as much sense as luxury Swiss watches.

[peterdo]

What he said ^^

As good an evaluation as you will read today!


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[paul staines]

What he said ^^

As good an evaluation as you will read today!


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Agreed. Grand seiko second on my list after Deepsea.

[paskinner]

‘Value’ is perhaps the overall cost. Current GS models are, in many cases, close to or at Rolex prices (compare the basic diver with a no-date Sub). But the depreciation is very different.
The GS will probably lose 30% in the first month; the Rolex won’t lose a penny.
I buy GS watches, and enjoy them, but these days I want a good discount or I buy used. That’s where the ‘value’ is.
Another example, the hi-beat diver is £8,700. About the same price as the Rolex SD43. You can all do the sums....

[notenoughwrists]

I used to think Rolex were the best, because I wore one.
Now I wear GS, and they’re the best. Fact (for now at least).
End of discussion. You’re welcome.




;)


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