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Can anyone help me identify what my grandfathers watch is?
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hmm. these photos look so good on my laptop and phone...
The movement is a Fountainemelon, the dial is a generic dial that is found pretty well everywhere and the case is impossible to identify from the pictures so far. You need to get a decent photo of the inside back case which should reveal makers marks import marks and so on.
Possibly of more importance is the fact that it still has rather a lot of radium lume that looks in poor condition. Store it in a plastic bag in a metal box in a well ventilated place and treat it with respect. Any decent watch repairer will be able to sterilise the dial and hands as part of a service. The fountainemelon movement is a very high quality movement and, with a bit of TLC, is capable of perfectly acceptable performance as a day to day wear.
Last edited by M4tt; 11th May 2019 at 20:41.
Let me have another go with the photos. I am impressed you got all that, i could hardly make anything out of the first photos that were loaded on the forum site.
Last edited by timc; 11th May 2019 at 20:47.
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The one to focus on is the first one, the inside back. I think I can see a P, and there's a serial number which together with the high state of finish on the movement implies a company that had a decent opinion of themselves and so might mean something today, but we'd need to be able to see all of the marks on the case to go further.
Obviously the NRA is the National Rifle Association, that's the UK version who quite like a nice cuppa, and who are still at Bisley today, not the US version.
Last edited by M4tt; 11th May 2019 at 20:55.
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this additional one came with it and might have been his too, or perhaps his grandfathers...
will spend some time trying to work out how to post some higher quality photos tomorrow..
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It's an early Longines movement
I assume that he won it at or brought it at a shooting event - a sport i know he enjoyed.
Originally Posted by M4tt
can you tell me more about this lume? Why do you think it is radium - what are the distinguishing features/ characteristics? should i be worried, is it the same with the black pocket watch face?
[Possibly of more importance is the fact that it still has rather a lot of radium lume that looks in poor condition. Store it in a plastic bag in a metal box in a well ventilated place and treat it with respect. Any decent watch repairer will be able to sterilise the dial and hands as part of a service. The fountainemelon movement is a very high quality movement and, with a bit of TLC, is capable of perfectly acceptable performance as a day to day wear.[/QUOTE]
Last edited by timc; 11th May 2019 at 21:57.
[/QUOTE]
Unless you have a Geiger counter, it's hard to be absolutely sure. At that time Radium was the default power source for luminous paint and so it almost certainly is and it's certainly worth treating it with caution. Radium throws out a ionising radiation. Very little will get beyond the skin, but if you inhale the dust then radium has a horrid tendency to migrate to the bones and hang around for a decade being unhelpful. In addition, one of the decay products is radon gas which is well known.
Now this sounds terrifying, but the fact is that it's just one of many risk factors and can be effectively managed. So don't sniff the dial or fiddle with loose lume and don't leave it all hanging around where people live. Pretty well any lume up until the sixties is worth being cautious about. After that Tritium became the go to substance and that has a half life that means you'll struggle to find any radioactive tritium dials. Radium's half life is in the thousands of years and so it's worth treating with caution.
Unless you have a Geiger counter, it's hard to be absolutely sure. At that time Radium was the default power source for luminous paint and so it almost certainly is and it's certainly worth treating it with caution. Radium throws out a ionising radiation. Very little will get beyond the skin, but if you inhale the dust then radium has a horrid tendency to migrate to the bones and hang around for a decade being unhelpful. In addition, one of the decay products is radon gas which is well known.
Now this sounds terrifying, but the fact is that it's just one of many risk factors and can be effectively managed. So don't sniff the dial or fiddle with loose lume and don't leave it all hanging around where people live. Pretty well any lume up until the sixties is worth being cautious about. After that Tritium became the go to substance and that has a half life that means you'll struggle to find any radioactive tritium dials. Radium's half life is in the thousands of years and so it's worth treating with caution.[/QUOTE]
hmm.... so don’t leave it in the bedroom on the table near the foot of the bed...
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(don't leave it all hanging around where people live. )
so i have just moved it out of the bedroom where my partner and our two year old are sleeping... I am glad that i posted. Thank you.
Who would be the best watch restorer to send this type of watch too?
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I agree that it's probably not a FHF as I initially thought from the first picture, but I'm not familiar with a Longines movement that looks like that and I have a couple of Longines from the period. I was thinking it might be a Schilde variant, but I'm also thinking I need to see a better picture to say much more. If you have a picture of the Longines movement I'd be fascinated.
There are plenty of options. There are a couple of highly regarded watch repair folk frequent TZ UK, such as walkerwek1958, but be aware that parts can be a problem if it's more than a simple service and I'm not sure that a horologist will be hugely keen on repairing the damaged hinge as that's liable to be a fairly complex silversmithing job and without knowing the grades of silver solder used, can be less than fun. At this point, it's more about getting rid of the radium lume (it's a porcelain dial which will look lovely naked) and this is something to leave to professionals. This is a brilliant heirloom and well worth looking after.
And don’t panic about the Radium. Most of the watches for over 50 years had some on, and the only casualties were those who painted the dials.
It is however turning to dust and Matt is right, it’s not a dust you want to breathe too often. But in a plastic bag you’re fine.
Take better photos before putting it in the bag, though.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I'm agreeing with you M4tt, it's no Longines movement that's for sure. Or at least none that I'm aware of and I have and have had a fair few of them from that period. It's not close to their movement style of layout either. Like you M4 on your initial take I took it for a Fountainemelon movement, but after another closer look at the better pic IMHO it's a A Schild Caliber 137, or variant thereof.
It is an A.Schild movement. I have several of them. It may have AS in an oval ring stamped on the bottom plate under the dial.
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True that. Breath in a tiny flake of that would make a 40 a day smoking habit look healthy. But as has been said you can get it removed and a run through the ultrasonic will clear way any of the dust that usually permeates the movement too. It's awful stuff. As SJ said pop it in one of those zip lock placcy bags to be safe, though when you open the bag do so outdoors as radium outgasses nasties like radon.
On another note and leaving aside considerations about movements and the possibility of turning into a Ready Brek kid* from the radiation; how fantastic Timc it is for you to have a family watch like that connected to the memory and history of your grandfather.It would be brilliant if you ended up getting it serviced and actually wearing it again. So long as you avoid water, in my experience such as it is, they can be a pretty solid watch and well worth wearing.
*really showing my age.
I grew up servicing these watches. They needed regular maintenance as they are neither water or shock proof. Mainsprings and crystal glasses constantly broke, hands disappeared, and yes, many rusty ones too. Around 6 month service intervals if worn daily. But they are beautiful. I especially like the thin straps which many find feminine nowadays.On another note and leaving aside considerations about movements and the possibility of turning into a Ready Brek kid* from the radiation; how fantastic Timc it is for you to have a family watch like that connected to the memory and history of your grandfather.
*really showing my age.
Good to show your age. ..and great experience with it.
* I made a couple of trench cases which are on my website.
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Fingers crossed
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I hope that this works
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One more to come
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The really helpful one now will be the inner case back with all the markings as clear as possible...
edit.
Ok, we’ll be able to get something from the centre group, but the mark at about ten o clock is frustratingly obscure.
The right most tells us it was imported into London, the left is the silver purity and the Germanic ‘b’ is 1917, the date of import. These were all struck on arrival. What we need is the maker’s mark.
Last edited by M4tt; 12th May 2019 at 08:40.
And now bagged
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Back of case from a different angle
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Last edited by timc; 12th May 2019 at 09:03.
I have zoomed in and tried to use some filters to pull out the faint markings
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Any ideas where to look for the maker's mark?
Thank you. It would be fun to get serviced. It is a very small watch by modern standards. Most probably one for the side table or a trinkets box, when it is safe. If i do i will post ;)On another note and leaving aside considerations about movements and the possibility of turning into a Ready Brek kid* from the radiation; how fantastic Timc it is for you to have a family watch like that connected to the memory and history of your grandfather.
*really showing my age.
Cross referencing the watch engraving with his gravestone, he must have got this watch when he was 17 or 18 years old.
Clearly I've been extremely lucky on that score as other than a couple of crystals needing replacement over the years I found most of the ones I've had to be very reliable. Two in particular went at least five years between services with no issue. To be fair, they're both quite "new" looking inside and out, so probably left in a drawer for decades and kept dry, so have less millage on the clock. One was my "daily" for years and I'd still wear it regularly(I'm wearing it today). I suppose like anything else some people are harder on objects around them? I'm not into extreme sports or anything so maybe that's it.
It is. Pity. The amount of scratches in the inside of the case I've not seen before. Almost like sandpaper was applied and right in the area where you'd expect to find the makers/sponsors mark. The mark at ten o'clock looks like a blemish to me, though Timc's enhanced seems to show a circular bit of text at the 12 mark.
Apologies for the crap pic, but here's the caseback off a Mappin branded example of mine. The importers mark is usually where the red oval is. And where yours has the most wear/scratches.
Looking again at your high contrast photo maybe the circular writing is "depose" and a number which is a Swiss registered design mark IIRC.
Last edited by Wibbs; 12th May 2019 at 09:33. Reason: spelling :s
There is something at 10 o'clock, but i can't make it out with the naked eye.Clearly I've been extremely lucky on that score as other than a couple of crystals needing replacement over the years I found most of the ones I've had to be very reliable. Two in particular went at least five years between services with no issue. To be fair, they're both quite "new" looking inside and out, so probably left in a drawer for decades and kept dry, so have less millage on the clock. One was my "daily" for years and I'd still wear it regularly(I'm wearing it today). I suppose like anything else some people are harder on objects around them? I'm not into extreme sports or anything so maybe that's it.
It is. Pity. The amount of scratches in the inside of the case I've not seen before. Almost like sandpaper was applied and right in the area where you'd expect to find the makers/sponsors mark. The mark at ten o'clock looks like a blemish to me, though Timc's enhanced seems to show a circular bit of text at the 12 mark.
Not if you're scrawny like me.
Ahh, your photo helps me understand a lot. The marker's make has been completely removed. I wonder why someone would do this?Apologies for the crap pic, but here's the caseback off a Mappin branded example of mine. The importers mark is usually where the red oval is. And where yours has the most wear/scratches.
Looking again at your high contrast photo maybe the circular writing is "depose" and a number which is a Swiss registered design mark IIRC.
Perhaps the original engraver rebranded it.
Perhaps if i get it serviced, there will be something hidden within the mechanism.
Last edited by timc; 12th May 2019 at 09:47.
Yeah it's a bit odd alright TimC. I had a look at the marks on the Longines I'm wearing today and the importers mark is very lightly stamped. Barely legible. It's also stamped on the inner cover and more clearly but not by much. The marks in the last pic of mine are much more cleanly stamped. I seem to recall there'll be a hallmark on the main case somewhere and there might be the importers too?
Now i am really interested what it is. Who ever did it found it either off brand or they were embarrassed by the branding. Perhaps it was the equivalent to taking the price label off a present, so no one can know.
Perhaps the Bisley brand top trumped the watch brand.
Last edited by timc; 12th May 2019 at 10:32.
Could be. Still seems odd. They were very specifically and clumsily focussing on the maker's mark. And if I recall isn't it illegal under British law to deface marks on silver and gold items, or is that just hallmarks specifically? I doubt a constable would be knocking on doors over that mind you. :)
I have seen a few WW2 German issued watches that had their serial numbers and other markings removed to denazify them for post war alright, even one that had a new white dial and "civilian" hands fitted after the war, but that certainly wouldn't be in play with a Great War watch.
Who knows. I think it most likely a school boy shooting prize or a trinket brought when visiting a Bisley. I am told he was competing in tornaments at quite a high level at that age.
Nice prize too. They were not a particularly cheap item for the average person.
Next step.. making it safe and possibly a restoration (if a watch repairer is up for it)..
Whoever made the case and dial, this was far from a trinket. It's a mid high end movement with a high level of decoration. As it stands, that would have cost three or four quid in 1917, which translates to around two hundred and fifty quid today. This is misleading though. To put it in a better context, a private soldier in 1917 was paid a shilling (12P) a day and with 120 pennies in a pound, three quid would be thirty days pay. So a watch like this would be a month's salary for a private. However, by this point in the war, the value of snipers was well understood and so target shooting competitions for people who were his age would have been well funded and extremely competitive.
That is very interesting perspective.
I am over the moon that i have it :)
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