Advice on a small home cinema extension

[mindforge]

I'd really appreciate some advice. I'm at the planning stages of an extension to the house. After careful negotiation and concessions over walk in wardrobes and en suite bathrooms, I have allowed for a dedicated media room to be at the end of the house as an extension (both sides would be detached), to where I would move my current living room set up (65" 4k Sony A1, Monitor Audio Bronze 5.1.2 system), but I would like to future proof the build to allow for future upgrades to something like a 7.1.4 XTZ system and maybe a projector unless the space is too small.

I am trying to figure out which dimensions to go for, on the understanding that the room should be rectangular rather than square (the architect originally had it as square, but perhaps a stud wall could be built and the area behind it used for AV equipment and storage?). Are Velux windows in a cinema room definitely not a good idea? It would not be multipurpose so would want to block out light.

The current useable internal proposed dimensions are 3.849m length by 2.7m width and it would be a dedicated cinema room for 1 to maximum 4 people (usually two). Is that too small or manageable?

Then I'd like to figure out what I should tell the builders to do by way of acoustic treatment to the walls. Is it as simple as stuffing then with rock wool?!

Thanks very much.

[Cynar]

Head on over to avforums. There’s a wealth of knowledge and information on there.

[mindforge]

Head on over to avforums. There’s a wealth of knowledge and information on there.

Thanks, yes I posted there initially but had no response so tried here instead.

[Mr.D]

Do not make the mistake of painting the walls a nice dark colour and then allowing “other” family members to mitigate the dark gloomy nature by suggesting having a brighter coloured carpet or floor.

As well as compromising the ambient bounce levels in the room it will emphasise the darkness with the lights up not compensate it.

Use lights and detailing to give the room space and depth whilst keeping the ambient light level controlled. Think how real cinemas manage this.

Go dark and matte but you can go with a colour : don’t worry about staying gray. I like deep blues and greens , red can look a bit sinister .

I would also stick with a direct view screen rather than go projection. Regardless of the extra size the dynamic range from projectors just doesn’t measure up against a good OLED .

You may want to give a little backlight to a direct view display . I’m not a fan personally but its easy to try .

And spend some money on a colorimeter and sound pressure level meter for setup.

[mindforge]

I have put together some rough and ready sketches of furniture, screen and speaker orientations. I am leaning towards the short wall orientation (first picture), as it leaves more depth in the room to put a couple of beanbags in front for the rare times we have more than 2 people watching something (e.g. with children).

Apparently the Visual Accuity Distance (at which it is possible to discern 4k detail) for a 65" 4k TV is 4", tried it with my three seater sofa and the seats on the end are much too far to the side. A two seater with no arm rest in the middle would work.

Would appreciate any thoughts as these are just my amateur attempts!

[johnboy9876]

Head on over to avforums. There’s a wealth of knowledge and information on there.

I would second this advice. The amount of knowledge on AVForums is amazing and I have had some great help from the forum members there. just the same as the Members on here!

[Kingstepper]

I would second this advice. The amount of knowledge on AVForums is amazing and I have had some great help from the forum members there. just the same as the Members on here!

Well he did and there wasn't.

[gavsw20]

No time to read all the responses so apologises in advance if i repeat.

- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour - I have Stifkey Blue and a black recessed pelmet (screen & down-lights) for my room and am mid-way through installing one of these in the ceiling - https://www.starscape.co.uk/cp97.php
- Dark flooring
- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour
- Black-out blinds
- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour :)
- If you stick with a TV a lot of people recommend bias-lighting my means of LEDs

And if you go with a projector - I have a 110" in my room and it makes sport and movies come alive especially in Scope
- Work backwards from this rule - Width of Projector Screen X 2 = minimum comfortable distance. Width of Projector Screen X 5 = maximum distance.
- With a small dedicated room you may be best off having the speakers set into the wall and buying an acoustically transparent screen
- Get a fixed-frame screen if u can get away with it
- Decide on the projector you want and then use this tool to find the ideal size and distance it needs to be installed - https://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...ulator-pro.cfm
- Might be an idea to check out a DLP projector if you plan on buying one (as they are reasonably priced) as some people suffer from 'rainbow effect'


This area of AVF is a good source for info - https://www.avforums.com/forums/home...-building.246/

[mondie]

Is the acoustic treatment to improve the sound, or to keep it from leaking into the rest of the house? Acoustic plasterboard will do that latter and actually be worse for how the room sounds.

To treat the room properly to get the maximum sound quality you need to cover around 70% of the ceiling and wall areas in semi-rigid fibreglass panels, preferably at least 100mm thick and offset 200mm from the wall surface.

[qaz4169]

No time to read all the responses so apologises in advance if i repeat.

- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour - I have Stifkey Blue and a black recessed pelmet (screen & down-lights) for my room and am mid-way through installing one of these in the ceiling - https://www.starscape.co.uk/cp97.php
- Dark flooring
- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour
- Black-out blinds
- Paint the walls (and ceiling if u can get away with it) a dark colour :)
- If you stick with a TV a lot of people recommend bias-lighting my means of LEDs

And if you go with a projector - I have a 110" in my room and it makes sport and movies come alive especially in Scope
- Work backwards from this rule - Width of Projector Screen X 2 = minimum comfortable distance. Width of Projector Screen X 5 = maximum distance.
- With a small dedicated room you may be best off having the speakers set into the wall and buying an acoustically transparent screen
- Get a fixed-frame screen if u can get away with it
- Decide on the projector you want and then use this tool to find the ideal size and distance it needs to be installed - https://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...ulator-pro.cfm
- Might be an idea to check out a DLP projector if you plan on buying one (as they are reasonably priced) as some people suffer from 'rainbow effect'


This area of AVF is a good source for info - https://www.avforums.com/forums/home...-building.246/

This is perfect advice. Sony do some pretty decent projectors and we just upgraded to one of these. Heat management is an issue worth considering as is a decent lighting solution.


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[mangoosian]

I don't have a dedicated cinema room, but I do have a 7.1 set up with wall set LCR speakers. This is a shared wall with my neighbours (the house is a semi) so I spent a bit on sound insulation

I got these SM20 panels and acoustic plaster board.

https://www.soundstop.co.uk/soundpro...-solution4.php

The room might be quite small for a projector though depending on where/how you place your LCR speakers so wander over to AVforums for some input there.

Velux do excellent blinds so they are a good option.

My top tip if you go with a projector is to go for a quiet one if you can.

Best of luck and enjoy sourcing and set up.

[Dave O'Sullivan]

I'm not sure I'd have a projector in a room of that size.
Your current TV sounds perfect.

I'd also have the velux windows installed. You can get blackout blinds for them and should you want to use the room for something else further down the line, they will be a bonus to have.

[TheFlyingBanana]

We do have a home cinema of appx 400sqft, and had a slightly smaller one at our previous house.

In the first we had a projector system, back when early LCD projectors cost a fortune. Now we have it with a 70” 4K TV.

The latter option works perfectly well enough for me.

A couple of thoughts - get properly comfy chairs or sofas - don’t bother with refurbed cinema seating - it just isn’t as comfortable and you’ll end up taking it out.

Sound is actually more important than picture.
Poor sound will ruin the viewing experience.

Don’t go mad with the cost of the sound system- despite what audiophiles say you don’t need to. Invest in some cool props and decor to make the room a special experience- we have genuine screen props from numerous iconic movies - eg Harry Potter, Star Wars, Titanic etc (and some more obscure fun stuff) in ours.

Make the whole thing a fun place to be and a bit of an experience. Ours also has a bar and popcorn machine in it etc.

[mindforge]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I have pretty much complete control over how the room will end up thankfully, so was thinking dark grey thick carpet, black paint at the end where the screen is (and my assumption is that should be the short end of the room with the sofa not against back wall) and maybe the ceiling immediately above, matt grey paint on ceiling. Black velvet curtains/drapes over window/external door.

Lighting would be ambient lighting round the pelmet I suppose that can be remotely switched off.

I will be putting my current sound system in (Monitor Audio Bronze 5.1.2 with a BK XLS400 subwoofer) for the time being, sounds pretty amazing already in my living room, so I am hoping in a room with acoustic treatment and the ability to turn it up as it's not on the shared side of the semi-detached house, should be better.

Heartening to hear the guidance about staying with a large TV rather than projector as that is what I was hoping. By being closer to the screen, it will be more immersive and also you need to be 8 feet or closer to actually have benefit of the 4K detail. The alternative in say ten years could be to hide the projector in a cupboard in the kitchen with it firing through the wall and have an acoustically transparent screen with the speakers behind it, so I could wire for that during the build now? Or ultra short throw projectors are coming on quite a lot (I saw an incredible one demoed at Sony Square in Tokyo, firing from a coffee table, but extremely expensive).

Seating, currently have a comfortable three seater sofa in brown leather with recliners on the two ends and of course I always sit in the middle, so was thinking something like this but in black:
https://www.pickworthfurnishing.co.u...ng-sofa/p19784
although it's very expensive and could be too wide. I can't see the point in going for a two seater as then nobody is sitting in the sweet spot.

Decor - great ideas - I already have some genuine Star Wars stuff (my grandfather was the location manager on the original), some large Polish film posters and some other film memorabilia I can use.

Good tip on the acoustic plasterboard. Would acoustic plasterboard all round be enough to dampen sound waves, or should I go for bass traps from somewhere like GK Acoustics? They will do a free modelling of the room and then sell you a package, so might see what they have to say.

Here are the things I am still unsure about that I really need to make a decision on soon:

1 - Should I have the Velux window? Seems to be me it will be additional cost and I will have the blind on almost all the time as it will be used for watching films and TV. Can't see myself using room for any other purpose so only benefit would be potential resale value to another buyer who might want to use as a playroom or similar.

2 - Dimensions - Length is pretty limited by the length of the existing garage that is being knocked down but I could make it a bit wider to 3.3252m instead of 2.7m. Is this a good idea or would it create sound wave issues by virtue of being more of a square room? A wider room could help with making the triangle with the front speakers and most space to walk round the sofa so maybe it is more practical?

3 - Ceiling - My assumption is that this should be a flat ceiling, especially as will be having Atmos but a more dramatic alternative would be a vaulted pitched roof perhaps with Atmos speakers mounted on beams. Probably would not work with sound quality though.

[Mr Nuttington]

Regarding acoustics within the space, this is a bit of a black art and something that you can easily disappear down a rabbit hole with, but the principles are pretty straightforward. Because sound is a wave (an air pressure wave) the fundamental issue is to lay out the room to prevent or minimise the propagation of standing waves that reinforce certain sound frequencies rather than the full spectrum. You get standing waves where a dimension of the room exactly equals a multiple of a sound wave length. Of course it is impossible to avoid this for all frequencies so the trick is to minimise the unevenness of the reinforcement effect - you can do that by having an odd shaped room (walls and ceiling not quite parallel/perpenducular with each other) rather than a rectangular or even worse cube box. This means that your suggested vaulted roof rather than a flat ceiling could be an advantage all other things being equal. Its well worth a trip to a modern cinema to have a look at the room shapes they use - it will be far from a rectangular box and is a major focus of their design process. Also, on the dimensions try to avoid the width being an exact integer multiple of the length and the same for the ceiling height to wall dimensions if you are going with a rectangular space. Having got the overall room shape right you can think about reverb control in the room - soft furnishings, carpets etc can be enough and it can be helpful to have some kind of panel absorber behind the listening position to reduce reflected 'front' sound coming back at you from behind. All in all getting the overall room right will help get the best out of your AV setup and may save you having to spend excessively on specialist acoustic control measures - employing an acoustic consultant to assist the architect in getting these aspects right from the start could save you money in the long term.

One point regarding acoustic separation - depending on your living arrangements don't forget to specify a suitably acoustic rated and sealed internal door and frame to get you into the room.

On the Velux question, assuming Building Control will be involved and they consider the room to be 'habitable' it will require some form of background trickle ventilation - the windows would provide this but if you go black box you may have to introduce an alternative provision, which adds cost and gives the sound another path to escape and annoy the neighbours.

[walkerwek1958]

Small but v. important point: don`t forget to put adequate heating in! Extensions can be cold places, doesn`t matter how good the sound and vision experience is if you're sat with a blanket wrapped around you

[mindforge]

Thanks for the all the fantastic replies everyone. Will reply individually.

Still puzzling over which dimensions I should go for - now I am thinking it is better to go for the slightly wider, if squarer ones, as it would add more value in the future as a potential different use (e.g. study with garden view etc.)

If there were a window onto the garden, could it be blocked up temporarily with acoustic plasterboard or similar and the TV put over it?

- - - Updated - - -

Small but v. important point: don`t forget to put adequate heating in! Extensions can be cold places, doesn`t matter how good the sound and vision experience is if you're sat with a blanket wrapped around you

Absolutely! The plan is underfloor heating in the whole of the downstairs, which avoids having to use up walls with radiators. Also as a newly built extension, it will be well insulated.

[mindforge]

Makes absolute sense but is beyond me or the architect to figure out. This is the site I was looking at before, but I don't know how to create this effect,
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editor...Goals-Room-Dim

Perhaps it would be possible with internal plasterboard rather than external brick dimensions which would be trickier?

The other possibility I'm thinking about is going to GIK Acoustics or similar and seeing what they would recommend.

Regarding acoustics within the space, this is a bit of a black art and something that you can easily disappear down a rabbit hole with, but the principles are pretty straightforward. Because sound is a wave (an air pressure wave) the fundamental issue is to lay out the room to prevent or minimise the propagation of standing waves that reinforce certain sound frequencies rather than the full spectrum. You get standing waves where a dimension of the room exactly equals a multiple of a sound wave length. Of course it is impossible to avoid this for all frequencies so the trick is to minimise the unevenness of the reinforcement effect - you can do that by having an odd shaped room (walls and ceiling not quite parallel/perpenducular with each other) rather than a rectangular or even worse cube box. This means that your suggested vaulted roof rather than a flat ceiling could be an advantage all other things being equal. Its well worth a trip to a modern cinema to have a look at the room shapes they use - it will be far from a rectangular box and is a major focus of their design process. Also, on the dimensions try to avoid the width being an exact integer multiple of the length and the same for the ceiling height to wall dimensions if you are going with a rectangular space. Having got the overall room shape right you can think about reverb control in the room - soft furnishings, carpets etc can be enough and it can be helpful to have some kind of panel absorber behind the listening position to reduce reflected 'front' sound coming back at you from behind. All in all getting the overall room right will help get the best out of your AV setup and may save you having to spend excessively on specialist acoustic control measures - employing an acoustic consultant to assist the architect in getting these aspects right from the start could save you money in the long term.

One point regarding acoustic separation - depending on your living arrangements don't forget to specify a suitably acoustic rated and sealed internal door and frame to get you into the room.

On the Velux question, assuming Building Control will be involved and they consider the room to be 'habitable' it will require some form of background trickle ventilation - the windows would provide this but if you go black box you may have to introduce an alternative provision, which adds cost and gives the sound another path to escape and annoy the neighbours.

[Mr Nuttington]

Makes absolute sense but is beyond me or the architect to figure out. This is the site I was looking at before, but I don't know how to create this effect,
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editor...Goals-Room-Dim

Perhaps it would be possible with internal plasterboard rather than external brick dimensions which would be trickier?

The other possibility I'm thinking about is going to GIK Acoustics or similar and seeing what they would recommend.

Yes, it’s a very specialist subject area way beyond the comfort zone of most Architects. On the other hand asking an acoustic material supplier how much of their product they would recommend is likely to result in a predictable answer... That’s where an independent acoustic consultant can become worth their fee - There are a few out there but one I have used in the past is Spectrum Acoustic Consultants.

Doing things with the internal wall linings to get an irregular room inside a rectangular structure is certainly possible, but with all these things it really depends on how far you want to go for a domestic project.

[mindforge]

Yes, it’s a very specialist subject area way beyond the comfort zone of most Architects. On the other hand asking an acoustic material supplier how much of their product they would recommend is likely to result in a predictable answer... That’s where an independent acoustic consultant can become worth their fee - There are a few out there but one I have used in the past is Spectrum Acoustic Consultants.

Doing things with the internal wall linings to get an irregular room inside a rectangular structure is certainly possible, but with all these things it really depends on how far you want to go for a domestic project.

Good point.... I will check them out, thank you. I know a guy who is a sound engineer but not sure he does this kind of work. I had emailed Seriously Cinema as they are not far from me but never heard back. Any idea on very roughly how much they would charge?

[JonRA]

Re the resale point you made higher up...I would suggest it is constructed in such a way as it can be used quite easily for other purposes. A cinema room definitely won't appeal to everyone

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[pete-r]

Re the resale point you made higher up...I would suggest it is constructed in such a way as it can be used quite easily for other purposes. A cinema room definitely won't appeal to everyone

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This is a good point and why the wall panels are so good. They cost very little to make and you can move the foam in them to another house in future while returning the room to normal.

[mindforge]

Re the resale point you made higher up...I would suggest it is constructed in such a way as it can be used quite easily for other purposes. A cinema room definitely won't appeal to everyone

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

Yes I am reluctantly coming to this conclusion, as a small dark room will not appeal to all when it could be a lovely light room looking out onto the garden (!). So am thinking a Velux which could be covered by a blackout blind, a single door onto the garden which would probably be blocked by the sofa and a heavy velvet curtain and a window onto the garden which would be covered by some acoustic material and then the TV over it. Thoughts?

[JonRA]

Yes I am reluctantly coming to this conclusion, as a small dark room will not appeal to all when it could be a lovely light room looking out onto the garden (!).

Funnily enough, that was exactly the scenario I was thinking of.

I am one of those people who would prefer a room with a view to a cinema room. That said, having read TheFlyingBanana's description of his cinema room with all the accessories to make it a really fun experience, I'm beginning to see the attraction! Good luck with whatever you do :)

ATB

Jon

[mindforge]

Here are the three options from the architect, ignore the double doors, would definitely be a single door.

Would appreciate any ideas for how to design the space best!

[stuie-t]

I think I read that you planned to have underfloor heating, but also a thick carpet? I might be wrong but I can’t see that being particularly efficient at heating the room?


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[mindforge]

I think I read that you planned to have underfloor heating, but also a thick carpet? I might be wrong but I can’t see that being particularly efficient at heating the room?


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Well normal carpet anyway, rather than hard floors which cause reflections. To be honest I don't know about underfloor heating as I have not looked into it yet but my understanding is that it does work if it is a properly designed system?

[mindforge]

Still trying to make a decision on dimensions - if I can squeeze out some more space, so the long side is 4m and the short side is 3.5m, then the screen can go at the end on the short side opposite the door, with the sofa in the middle. I think 2.7m would be too narrow as ideally would have a three seater sofa so the sweet spot will be the central seat (for me obviously). Seems unsatisfying to have a two seater and then neither seat is dead on.

[Kingstepper]

I wouldn’t like to sit in the middle of a sofa.

[mindforge]

I wouldn’t like to sit in the middle of a sofa.

Would you rather sit off centre than sit in the middle? or move the sofa so that it is off centre and you're in the middle?

[Kingstepper]

Would you rather sit off centre than sit in the middle? or move the sofa so that it is off centre and you're in the middle?

Off centre, resting on one arm just seems more comfortable. Moving the sofa wouldn't help.

[mindforge]

Thanks! Well the kitchen and dining room will both have large glazed windows and doors into the garden so surely I'm allowed one dark cave to watch movies in...!

[Mr Curta]

Our projection room measures 4.6m x 4.3m with a three seater sofa facing the slightly longer aspect and a 300cm/118" projected image. I like the way that the equipment is unobtrusive when not in use, allowing the room to be easily adapted for other functions.

[mindforge]

Our projection room measures 4.6m x 4.3m with a three seater sofa facing the slightly longer aspect and a 300cm/118" projected image. I like the way that the equipment is unobtrusive when not in use, allowing the room to be easily adapted for other functions.

Thanks that's really helpful. Do you have the sofa up against the wall or with a gap?

[Mr Curta]

Thanks that's really helpful. Do you have the sofa up against the wall or with a gap?

It's against the wall. We just have a stereo and bass speaker set up at the image end, I've never been too fussed about surround. I love watching concerts with it turned up to 11 when the rest of the family are out.

[gpattni]

Hi, not sure if this is of much help.

Moved into a new house last year and had a room that was approx 6m X 3m. Have got a 5.1.2 system running with kef t303 for LCR and surrounds with kef ceiling speakers. Amp is a Denon AVRX3400H. Bought a two seater recliner sofa with some bean bags for the front. The walls are painted but still need to do the ceiling! All the wires have been chased into the walls etc.

Have tried to attach a picture not sure if it will work !




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[mindforge]

Hi, not sure if this is of much help.

Moved into a new house last year and had a room that was approx 6m X 3m. Have got a 5.1.2 system running with kef t303 for LCR and surrounds with kef ceiling speakers. Amp is a Denon AVRX3400H. Bought a two seater recliner sofa with some bean bags for the front. The walls are painted but still need to do the ceiling! All the wires have been chased into the walls etc.

Have tried to attach a picture not sure if it will work !




Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Looks fantastic, how's the sound and the image? Are those beanbags at the front low enough that you can see over anyone sitting there if you're on the sofa? I was thinking a two seater without a central arm rest would make both positions more central but that looks good. Where have you hidden the equipment?

[gpattni]

Looks fantastic, how's the sound and the image? Are those beanbags at the front low enough that you can see over anyone sitting there if you're on the sofa? I was thinking a two seater without a central arm rest would make both positions more central but that looks good. Where have you hidden the equipment?

Yes the beanbags are low enough for the people on the recliners to see over them. The screen is a fixed 106" from richer sounds. The beanbags are from ambient lounge. I am just waiting until 4k becomes more affordable to upgrade the projector. The sound is definitely loud enough but I chose a system that wouldn't be too large. The equipment is in a rack at the back of the room. I can try and upload a picture if you would like.

[mindforge]

Yes the beanbags are low enough for the people on the recliners to see over them. The screen is a fixed 106" from richer sounds. The beanbags are from ambient lounge. I am just waiting until 4k becomes more affordable to upgrade the projector. The sound is definitely loud enough but I chose a system that wouldn't be too large. The equipment is in a rack at the back of the room. I can try and upload a picture if you would like.

Fantastic, the beanbags are really nice! I would rather wait for 4k projectors to become affordable too. If it's not too much trouble, I'd be interested in seeing a picture of how you have hidden the rack.

[gpattni]

Fantastic, the beanbags are really nice! I would rather wait for 4k projectors to become affordable too. If it's not too much trouble, I'd be interested in seeing a picture of how you have hidden the rack.

We decided not to hide it and just made it into a small bar area/av rack. The cabinet is open to allow for reasonable air flow circulation for the amp. Just have a PS4 and Xbox 1 and sky q box connected at the moment.

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[mindforge]

Oh well, looks like I killed the thread with my terrible diagrams! Think I'll go for the screen on the short wall and leave the windows out, having just a single glass door onto the patio. Room is for me after all, not some putative future buyer.

[mondie]

Oh well, looks like I killed the thread with my terrible diagrams! Think I'll go for the screen on the short wall and leave the windows out, having just a single glass door onto the patio. Room is for me after all, not some putative future buyer.

Screen on the long wall will sound better with the caveat that you treat the room. That's an issue though with the door behind you which I assume is glass. Early reflections from the ceiling and sidewalls kill the SQ hence why I suggest the long wall option.

[mindforge]

Screen on the long wall will sound better with the caveat that you treat the room. That's an issue though with the door behind you which I assume is glass. Early reflections from the ceiling and sidewalls kill the SQ hence why I suggest the long wall option.

Yes, although I can move the door or it doesn't have to be glass (if it is, would be covered with a heavy velvet curtain). Interesting, most of the single garage conversions with similar dimensions I have found on AV Forums have gone for the short wall, on the basis that you get a closer match for the Dolby Atmos guidelines. Early reflections would have to be dealt with in any case, probably with panels? I don't mind having something on the ceiling if it makes a difference.

[mondie]

I guess my 2ch advice may not be totally relevant as I know nothing about Dolby so better you are deferring to people more knowledgable in this area. Regardless, treating the ceiling will make a massive difference especially in a small room. Velvet curtains while better than no curtains, do sweet FA compared to proper treatment.

Cheers

[mindforge]

I guess my 2ch advice may not be totally relevant as I know nothing about Dolby so better you are deferring to people more knowledgable in this area. Regardless, treating the ceiling will make a massive difference especially in a small room. Velvet curtains while better than no curtains, do sweet FA compared to proper treatment.

Cheers

Good to hear, as long as it sounds better than where it is currently set up (similar depth, twice as much width), I'll be happy!