Dirty Diesels hey!

[Franky Four Fingers]

There's been a few posts on here recently about diesels, how dirty they are, killing the environment, pollution, London emission charges etc etc.

Below are a few photos I've taken today of a couple of cars we look after.
The first one below is a 2013 640d BMW with 51000 miles on the clock.



The following image is of a 2012 Audi A6 ALL-ROAD with just over 90000 on the clock.


Now whilst I'm not suggesting that all diesels are this clean my experience of every EU5-6 vehicles are all this clean.
Remembering these pics are of the tail-pipe which is essentially the coolest part of the exhaust.
Both of these vehicle were submitted for MOT test today and both came back with the same report that the emissions were too low to register on the tester.

Are diesels as bad as we think?

[MCFastybloke]

There's been a few posts on here recently about diesels, how dirty they are, killing the environment, pollution, London emission charges etc etc.

Below are a few photos I've taken today of a couple of cars we look after.
The first one below is a 2013 640d BMW with 51000 miles on the clock.



The following image is of a 2012 Audi A6 ALL-ROAD with just over 90000 on the clock.


Now whilst I'm not suggesting that all diesels are this clean my experience of every EU5-6 vehicles are all this clean.
Remembering these pics are of the tail-pipe which is essentially the coolest part of the exhaust.
Both of these vehicle were submitted for MOT test today and both came back with the same report that the emissions were too low to register on the tester.

Are diesels as bad as we think?

Most harmful particles are invisible

[Saint-Just]

Most harmful particles are invisible

Does the test station only rely on vision for measurement/ detection?

[Arcam]

Does the test station only rely on vision for measurement/ detection?

No, they should use a device that measures the soot content with an electric eye and a beam of light.

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[Saint-Just]

Sorry, I could just Google it and sound more knowledgeable but is soot (which FFF was probably referring to) the only thing measured? I thought they measured more than that, and that indeed the newer norms for diesel improved significantly the situation

[higham5]

Yep but just be before we appreciate what FFF is illustrating, the classic how is my 4 stroke engine doing was a look at the tailpipe. If motorway expect-a nice clean grey deposit. Around town black and furry. This was of course before they hid your tailpipe away from sight.

FFF is showing diesel zorsts the most evil of polluters, their zorsts were black and festooned in webby shit.

I would suggest these pipes show good combustion and low emissions.

Ps If you really want to talk emissions I have four two stroke engines that fill carriageways with blue smoke, piss all over the garage floor and are legal, because they are............old! Why is that

[Saint-Just]

If you really want to talk emissions I have four two stroke engines that fill carriageways with blue smoke, piss all over the garage floor and are legal, because they are............old! Why is that

Possibly because you’ve owned them a long time, and the environmental cost of recycling them and buy newer machines would exceed considerably allowing you tu burn a little castor oil.

[CriticalMass]

The pictures seem to show that the DPFs (particulate filters) are working as they should. But isn’t the concern to do with NOx which are gaseous not particulate?

Having said that I think the latest uproar about diesels is overdone- specifically those that meet the Euro6 regs.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

The latest EU6 regs brought the Nox limits down massively for diesels from the previous EU5a regs (albeit not quite as low as petrol).

This has had a real impact on the problem, but the press from the VW scandal and the miss reporting of the ULEV charges are not helping - this has created a 'diesels are doom' kind of rumour.

[Peter franks]

They pushed the diesel myth,we all fell for it!!! Now they need a new stick to beat us with and possibly make more money in the process??
Win win for them lose lose for us ..
Diesels are not the pariah they are made out to be but we all know that don't we?

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[Franky Four Fingers]

Yes I'm referring to the particles.

[Franky Four Fingers]

The latest EU6 regs brought the Nox limits down massively for diesels from the previous EU5a regs (albeit not quite as low as petrol).

This has had a real impact on the problem, but the press from the VW scandal and the miss reporting of the ULEV charges are not helping - this has created a 'diesels are doom' kind of rumour.

Totally agree. Most EU6 vehicles I could leave ticking over in my workshop all day and bearly notice.

[noTAGlove]

Are diesels as bad as we think?

You don’t have to see any black stuff (carbon) to make them bad.

They are a significant poluter of NOx with all the health problems associated with this chemical. NOx is essentially odourless and colourless.

https://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html

[alfat33]

They are a significant poluter of NOx with all the health problems associated with this chemical. NOx is essentially odourless and colourless.

Under Euro 6, diesel and petrol cars have very similar limits for NOx production (80mg and 60mg per km). Put another way, a diesel owning city dweller driving 4,000 miles a year, commuting on public transport, is producing much less NOx than a someone living in a town driving a petrol car 10,000 miles per year.

In any case, average annual mileages are coming down.

Maybe some leeway could be given to Euro 6 diesels?

[Tooks]

Under Euro 6, diesel and petrol cars have very similar limits for NOx production (80mg and 60mg per km). Put another way, a diesel owning city dweller driving 4,000 miles a year, commuting on public transport, is producing much less NOx than a someone living in a town driving a petrol car 10,000 miles per year.

In any case, average annual mileages are coming down.

Maybe some leeway could be given to Euro 6 diesels?

I think they already are cut some slack, EU6 diesels are treated differently than older diesels in the London ULEZ for example, now and in the future.

Many forget that petrol cars emit NOx and particulates too, and every vehicle emits from tyre and brake wear as well, a significant contribution to micro plastics in water courses and our oceans.

Bottom line is that the only clean motoring is no motoring at all, but yes, I agree that EU6 diesels are being unfairly lumped in with older diesels.

The focus on real world emission vs official differences have not helped diesels cause either, but that applies to petrol vehicles also.

It’s a bit of a mess all told.

[paulpsz008]

Its Politics, simple as that.

On the plus side, there's a lot of work going on in the Industry to move to Eu6 or better levels (e.g. CARB) globally, China, India, South America etc...

[Foxy100]

I was talking to the chap who runs Emissions Analytics (https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/), a company that runs real-world tests on cars to see just how good is their fuel economy and how bad they pollute. He told me they've started testing pollution levels inside car cabins, presumably because a lot of people sit in traffic, breathing in air that contains a certain amount of pollution from the car in front. He also told me particulates from tyres was a big concern and one not many people consider. Apparently as they deteriorate they do so in tiny pieces you can't see.

[adrianw]

Next year they are going to ban Blue cars, and when everyone has Red cars they will ban them, the year after it's Yellow.................................

[adrianw]

I was talking to the chap who runs Emissions Analytics (https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/), a company that runs real-world tests on cars to see just how good is their fuel economy and how bad they pollute. He told me they've started testing pollution levels inside car cabins, presumably because a lot of people sit in traffic, breathing in air that contains a certain amount of pollution from the car in front. He also told me particulates from tyres was a big concern and one not many people consider. Apparently as they deteriorate they do so in tiny pieces you can't see.

Companies are putting a lot of effort into measuring particulates from brakes, a lot of attention is being paid to iron particles, which are very bad for your brain.

[Foxy100]

Companies are putting a lot of effort into measuring particulates from brakes, a lot of attention is being paid to iron particles, which are very bad for your brain.

One of the many reasons I laugh at people who think big hybrid SUVs are somehow environmentally friendly!

[alfat33]

One of the many reasons I laugh at people who think big hybrid SUVs are somehow environmentally friendly!

Are you suggesting that lightweight petrol open top cars (for better cabin ventilation) are the way forward? ;)

[reggie747]

Are you suggesting that lightweight petrol open top cars (for better cabin ventilation) are the way forward? ;)

Like this one perhaps ?

[Foxy100]

I don't know where either of you thought that up at the same time!

I was actually thinking more of Gordon Murray's contraptions, although they clearly need to be styled before being unleashed on the unsuspecting public:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/murray/t27

[alfat33]

Gordon Murray is a genius.

The cars look a bit gawky, but I bet they are very good to drive.

[Foxy100]

Gordon Murray is a genius.

The cars look a bit gawky, but I bet they are very good to drive.

It's the concept that works. Small factories built where the demand is. Tiny engines. Extremely strong chassis, plastic body panels that are easily replaced. You can fit three in a standard parking space. In a city like Winchester, where I live, there's a lot of parking that should be given over to cars like this, and big fat XC90s, X5s and so on should be directed to the park and rides on the outskirts.

[julian2002]

I must admit I struggle with 'city car' concepts - public transport is a far better solution for most inner city travel, if you need 'ad hoc' travel then an electric bike would be a better bet.

[W124]

I took our 2014 Mercedes ML for MOT on Monday, and I got an advisory because the exhaust gasses were so clean that the soot and NOx failed to trigger the sensor in the sniffer.

And yes, the machine was working fine, it recalibrates every cycle.

The vehicle is Euro 6 with AdBlue, derived from urea - I'm happy to keep on using diesel :)

[Xantiagib]

If only cruise ships, oil tankers and Construction diggers were all EU6 too

[thieuster]

The city council of Amsterdam has decided that all cars/busses/trucks/vans/... with a combustion engine are no longer allowed in the town starting 2030. No idea how they're going to do that...

[Tosh]

I took our 2014 Mercedes ML for MOT on Monday, and I got an advisory because the exhaust gasses were so clean that the soot and NOx failed to trigger the sensor in the sniffer.

And yes, the machine was working fine, it recalibrates every cycle.

The vehicle is Euro 6 with AdBlue, derived from urea - I'm happy to keep on using diesel :)

A lot of construction plant uses adblue


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[jammie*dodger]

I don't know where either of you thought that up at the same time!

I was actually thinking more of Gordon Murray's contraptions, although they clearly need to be styled before being unleashed on the unsuspecting public:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/murray/t27

I'd drive one of those if the price was right. Can I buy one though?

[HappyJack]

The Wall Street Journal last week reported that for every kilometre driven in a Tesla Model 3 over a 10-year period, 156-181 grams of carbon-dioxide are emitted into the atmosphere. This includes the emissions made during the car’s construction and repeated charging on a coal-fired grid. The equivalent figure for a diesel Mercedes C220d? About 141 grams.

[Kingstepper]

The Wall Street Journal last week reported that for every kilometre driven in a Tesla Model 3 over a 10-year period, 156-181 grams of carbon-dioxide are emitted into the atmosphere. This includes the emissions made during the car’s construction and repeated charging on a coal-fired grid. The equivalent figure for a diesel Mercedes C220d? About 141 grams.

Misleading figures (especially for UK). ~Third of our energy is from renewables and ~half from low carbon sources.
Over a 10-year period those figures will only improve.

[Irish boy]

I've an old '01 d4d avensis for the daily grind which I should really upgrade. The problem is as white goods its totally reliable, does 55mpg and has a decent slug of torque. I do quite like the look of the cactus, and I'll probably stick with diesel as I prefer the driving characteristics. Unless its in something sporty of course, where diesel doesn't belong.

[Tooks]

The Wall Street Journal last week reported that for every kilometre driven in a Tesla Model 3 over a 10-year period, 156-181 grams of carbon-dioxide are emitted into the atmosphere. This includes the emissions made during the car’s construction and repeated charging on a coal-fired grid. The equivalent figure for a diesel Mercedes C220d? About 141 grams.

This is a re-hash of the story from the Ifo study released in Germany last month I think.

The main issues I have with it are that they’re using NEDC consumption figures rather than the newer WLTP ones, which flatter the Diesel’s consumption. They flatter the Tesla’s electricity consumption as well, but the Tesla is a performance electric car so to be a like for like comparison the fossil fuelled car should be something like an AMG C63, or the electric car compared should be something like a Kia Niro/Hyundai Kona. It also ignores the progress being made in manufacturing batteries, the study used for that figure is already 3 years old and things are moving quickly.

The main issue though, as somebody else said, is that Germany has probably the dirtiest energy mix of any major European country, had the comparison been done in Norway it would have been considerably skewed the other way. The Ifo say as much themselves.

It’s true, electric cars are only as green to run as the energy used to power them, but as your energy source gets greener then so does the car.

I do agree with one of the reports conclusions though, and that is that electric cars are not quite the panacea that many are making them out to be. The only truly green motoring is no motoring at all.

[Tahiti]

Next year they are going to ban Blue cars, and when everyone has Red cars they will ban them, the year after it's Yellow.................................

It will only be yellow cars after they do a big push on discounted yellow cars. And then decide they’re bad.

I’m not an environmentalist, but logic says to me that if you’re ripping up a rainforest to produce a battery for a car that’s made the other side of the world and then transporting said car across the planet that we might have ultimately been better off ensuring that our current fleet of cars was kept in tip top condition.


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[Tahiti]

I think they already are cut some slack, EU6 diesels are treated differently than older diesels in the London ULEZ for example, now and in the future.

And yet look at the less well cared for taxis (and to a degree older buses) that are still in that zone!


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[Liner33]

As already mentioned google Nano particulates , as already said these are far more dangerous the big old fashioned smoky diesel produced large particles with quickly fell to earth and were washed away , nano particulates are drawn deep into the lungs and are likely far more damaging and carcinogenic, and then on top of that you have NOx

[walkerwek1958]

The smaller the particles the more likely they are to be hazardous, but I don’t accept that the older diesels that produced large particles were healthier. It stands to reason that they also produced the very small particles too, along with the larger stuff that was visible to all.

Air pollution is a problem that needs to be managed as effectively as practicable, but the only way to minimise exposure ( in the short term) is to move away from built up congested areas, that’s the reality for anyone who’s sufficiently concerned about the health hazards.

At the age of 61 I can’t say I worry about these things any longer, encouraging the use of diesel engines in cars and vans on the basis of reduced carbon dioxide emissions was never the right thing to do in my opinion, it was a bandwagon the politicians jumped on. As a nation we can do virtually nothing to stem the greenhouse gas/ global warming but we can influence our own air quality at a local level, that should’ve been the priority.

[Liner33]

The smaller the particles the more likely they are to be hazardous, but I don’t accept that the older diesels that produced large particles were healthier. .

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...002891.article

[Franky Four Fingers]

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...002891.article

Thats an old report from 2008. What about EU5 or 6?

[Liner33]

Thats an old report from 2008. What about EU5 or 6?

What about EU5/6 ? Newer vehicles may produce less particulates in total but if the particulates they produce are more harmful is it actually beneficial or simply just marketing?

[uptheaddicks]

We bought a Euro6 Volvo diesel XC60 (running ADBLU) just before Xmas.
I asked the salesman about a petrol XC40 and got a demo. During the ride, the salesman said the biggest concern with them was the new owners phoned in asking why they were only getting 25mpg. He said the hybrid experience was similar on Xc90.

[Franky Four Fingers]

What about EU5/6 ? Newer vehicles may produce less particulates in total but if the particulates they produce are more harmful is it actually beneficial or simply just marketing?

Im assuming you've seen the stats of EU6 diesels compared to petrols then?

[Franky Four Fingers]

Euro 6 and Euro 6 diesel
Implementation date (new approvals): 1 September 2014
Implementation date (most new registrations - see important point below table above): 1 September 2015
The sixth and current incarnation of the Euro emissions standard was introduced on most new registrations in September 2015. For diesels, the permitted level of NOx has been slashed from 0.18g/km in Euro 5 to 0.08g/km.
A focus on diesel NOx was the direct result of studies connecting these emissions with respiratory problems.
To meet the new targets, some carmakers have introduced Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), in which a liquid-reductant agent is injected through a catalyst into the exhaust of a diesel vehicle. A chemical reaction converts the nitrogen oxide into harmless water and nitrogen, which are expelled through the exhaust pipe.
The alternative method of meeting Euro 6 standards is Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR). A portion of the exhaust gas is mixed with intake air to lower the burning temperature. The vehicle’s ECU controls the EGR in accordance with the engine load or speed.
Euro 6 emissions standards (petrol)
CO: 1.0g/km
THC: 0.10g/km
NMHC: 0.068g/km
NOx: 0.06g/km
PM: 0.005g/km (direct injection only)
PN [#/km]: 6.0x10 ^11/km (direct injection only)
Euro 6 emissions standards (diesel)
CO: 0.50g/km
HC + NOx: 0.17g/km
NOx: 0.08g/km
PM: 0.005g/km
PN [#/km]: 6.0x10 ^11/km

[walkerwek1958]

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...002891.article

A very interesting article, since I left the chemical industry 9 years ago I don't read any technical articles, I left it all behind.

The inference here is that the 'cleaner' diesels produce a different species, with unique properties owing to the changes in the surface composition and the hydrophilic nature.

In the grand scheme of things, how much of a health risk does this constitute? That's a more difficult question to answer. It's a bit like stating that barbecued meat contains carcinogens, but we don`t all end up with cancer because we've eaten barbecued food!

I don`t know where the answers lie, there's a good case for electric vehicles in built up areas and maybe that's what we'll all have in the future.

Back in the 70s we didn`t have these concerns, tetraethyl lead was still being added to petrol, old diesel busses and lorries puked smoke from their exhausts (especially going up hill), things needed to change and thankfully they have, but we now face a new set of issues. There are simply too many vehicles on the road at the same time, that's the big problems, and no-one has an answer.

Maybe we'll all end up walking around wearing masks containing charcoal filters