Death to diesels

[Wilson_smyth]

Diesels days have been numbered ever since the emissions controversy & I would even say they were numbered as far back as when Europe introduced legislation that required the use of a Diesel Particulate filter (DPF).

Before the DPF, diesel and petrol was a personal choice based on which one rathered to drive or which a person thought was more economical.
Once the DPF came along it removed the choice of diesels from anyone who wants something for short commutes, i.e. most people who live in and dont really leave city/towns.

I have a diesel, it was economical and never had a problem with it until i moved closer to work.
Now im not doing enough mileage at high enough rev's for the DPF cleaning function to kick in.
it requires the car running uninterrupted at 60kph+ for a min of 15 minutes for the engine to get hot enough to trigger a cleaning cycle(regen).

This means at best i have to schedule a 30 minute drive down the motorway on the weekends and at worst, the DPF clogs up and ill be charged 200 quid by a deler to have it cleaned.
30 minutes time at the weekends to babysit my car is insane, my time is valuable, weekend is for my family, not for mollycuddling a diesel filter.

So for me, and most people living in the city, who stop, start, dont get over 40kph and certainly dont regularly get to drive at 60kph+ uninterrupted for a min of 15 mins, diesels are a non starter.

As regulations become stricter, diesel will not be applicable to more and more people. It will probably be taxed to oblivion before that happens though.

[vagabond]

I suppose the upside (for those living outside of cities) is that diesel car prices will fall and make motoring more affordable in the short term? I expect over the next couple of years a large number of diesel cars will enter the used market i.e. end of lease / company cars etc. that might struggle to find buyers? I wonder what mitigation plans business' like Car Giant have put in place?

I sold my 335d in Dec last year and have bitter sweet thoughts - now thinking of getting another (cheapish) diesel car.

[chrisparker]

One thing that's often overlooked is that Diesel and petrol cars pollute the area they frequent. So if you live in a big city and drive it's fair you inhale the pollution caused by that. Electric motors displace that pollution to power stations, often located in the countryside. Buzzing around Manchester in your Nissan Leaf doesn't make you green, it just means your pollution in pumped out at Drax instead.

[Mick P]

Diesels days have been numbered ever since the emissions controversy & I would even say they were numbered as far back as when Europe introduced legislation that required the use of a Diesel Particulate filter (DPF).

Before the DPF, diesel and petrol was a personal choice based on which one rathered to drive or which a person thought was more economical.
Once the DPF came along it removed the choice of diesels from anyone who wants something for short commutes, i.e. most people who live in and dont really leave city/towns.

I have a diesel, it was economical and never had a problem with it until i moved closer to work.
Now im not doing enough mileage at high enough rev's for the DPF cleaning function to kick in.
it requires the car running uninterrupted at 60kph+ for a min of 15 minutes for the engine to get hot enough to trigger a cleaning cycle(regen).

This means at best i have to schedule a 30 minute drive down the motorway on the weekends and at worst, the DPF clogs up and ill be charged 200 quid by a deler to have it cleaned.
30 minutes time at the weekends to babysit my car is insane, my time is valuable, weekend is for my family, not for mollycuddling a diesel filter.

So for me, and most people living in the city, who stop, start, dont get over 40kph and certainly dont regularly get to drive at 60kph+ uninterrupted for a min of 15 mins, diesels are a non starter.

As regulations become stricter, diesel will not be applicable to more and more people. It will probably be taxed to oblivion before that happens though.

My son has run Honda Civics (diesel) for the last 5 years and his typical mileage is a two journeys of about 10 mins each way every day to work. His mileage at the weekends is peanuts and it is the typical 66mpg that makes him a diesel fanatic.

He has never had a DPF problem.

[Bristolian]

One thing that's often overlooked is that Diesel and petrol cars pollute the area they frequent. So if you live in a big city and drive it's fair you inhale the pollution caused by that. Electric motors displace that pollution to power stations, often located in the countryside. Buzzing around Manchester in your Nissan Leaf doesn't make you green, it just means your pollution in pumped out at Drax instead.

In terms of the number of people affected by the immediate particulate pollution, that' still a win for public health even if CO2 'footprint' of EVs is generally high, not least from battery manufacture - although it depends where they are built.

Overall the shift to electric vehicles is still a good thing IMHO. Especially if you end up with one of these :

[swanbourne]

Not only diesels, motorbikes and mopeds have to pay too. Private hire has to pay but black cabs are exempt.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...opeds-and-more

Eddie

[Neil]

I too drive a diesel and will be penalised for it. However we should look at the bigger picture and I'm quoting from respected research-

"Categorically, there is no question that when the tailpipe emissions data of an EV versus a non-EV are compared given the same size and range, the electric car will always win, hands down. This is the reason why an EV is considered to have zero emissions. However, the proper measure should always be the big picture — the lifecycle analysis that considers car production, battery manufacturing, power sources used, and how each component of the EV are expected to be recycled at the end of its lifespan."

EVs are powered by batteries that contain lithium, and rare earth elements are used in its various parts — the mining of all of these metals have very negative environmental implications.

"The mining process for lithium and rare earths can be very destructive. The mining of lithium uses a huge amount of water, about 500,000 gallons per tonne of lithium. Plus, this is being done in areas where there is not enough water to begin with, for example, in Salar de Atacama in Chile. Compounding this is a possibility for the chemicals used in the mining of lithium to leak in the water supply and contaminate it.
Rare earths are also mined and the process of doing so, results in lots of carbon dioxide emissions and the use of toxic chemicals which are harmful to the water and soil.
It is important that all these things are considered when quantifying the environmental cost of electric cars."

Then factor in the cost of transporting these elements all over the world to the manufacturers in the most polluting of vehicles, eg: ships, the cost of burning dirty fossil fuels to generate the electricity to charge them and problems with disposing of the batteries etc. at their end of life and I'm not convinced my 10yr old diesel is that harmful. Electric vehicles can have much higher lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions than conventional vehicles.

Lets also not forget that the air in London is far cleaner today than it was before the car was even invented, what with the amount of methane from the horses and the smoke from the chimneys.

Not everything is as clear cut as the politicians would have us believe.


Neil

[martyloveswatches]

20,000 miles a year and one car in the family means I'll be buying a bigger, more powerful diesel next year. Until something can offer the same performance, mpg and styling I'll continue with the usual German marques.

I am driving family german VW Golf Variant and my next will be the same (only newer), very very satisfied

Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk

[AndyMilts]

One thing that's often overlooked is that Diesel and petrol cars pollute the area they frequent. So if you live in a big city and drive it's fair you inhale the pollution caused by that. Electric motors displace that pollution to power stations, often located in the countryside. Buzzing around Manchester in your Nissan Leaf doesn't make you green, it just means your pollution in pumped out at Drax instead.

Sign up to bulb or Octopus or one of the many other green energy providers.

You all use Diesel as you think it cheaper but it’s not, Electric is the cheap option, petrol cars make the best sounds

[P9CLY]

Let's assume everyone with a vehicle that is bad for the environment as the government say,decides to pay the extra charge,the air quality will remain the same!.So will that make the government happy because they have the revenue from the extra charges,or is it just about the environment and air quality?.

And when the government reduced the car tax to tempt us into greener vehicles,it won't be long and we will be asked to pay something else to recover that shortfall.

[deanlad]

Parasites this government are... another taxation, and the motorist an easy target.
It will be utter chaos when the UELZ is extended to the boundaries of the N&S circular in 2021, then of course when its inside the M25.

The issue as claimed is that the pollution is affecting peoples quality of life, ultimately being inferred as killing people in some extreme cases. But thats ok, because if you pay £12.50 a day, you can carry on....
Think it was a line from a Beautiful South song ( Ironic) "Good as gold, but thick as thieves, they, carried on regardless"

Genuinely, it will affect me when extended to the the south circular. Toyota Hilux you seethes what i use day in day out for work. No option for a green version of that.
What will happen -white van/working man will just pass the the daily charge on to whoever they are working for, which will be passed on all along the line. Hey ho, doesn't solve the pollution problem, but will produce a bucket load of cash for the governments coffers....

[deanlad]

Of course when they see the cash it generates in London... is suspect very much it will be coming to a city near you...

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Looking at the changes, Euro 3 is nearly 10 years old, so it's not that punitive (albeit annoying).

[CriticalMass]

I can’t help thinking that once the ICE has been regulated out of existence the focus of the environmentalists will turn to EVs on the basis that the hugely increasing number of used lithium batteries can’t be recycled. And the cobalt content of the batteries is produced in the DRC in horrific conditions.

Hopefully by then hydrogen fuel cell technologies will have advanced to a point where they are economically viable.

[Motman]

I’m off to buy a Mini PHEV this weekend.

https://www.mini.co.uk/en_GB/home/ra...in-hybrid.html

Wait a minute - only 12 miles on the battery? Nah, forget it.

[deanlad]

Looking at the changes, Euro 3 is nearly 10 years old, so it's not that punitive (albeit annoying).

I would like to earn enough money not to have a 10year old van.

[gray]

You are all making me want a petrol V8 more and more. Fossil fuels are finite. Enjoy them while you can.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I would like to earn enough money not to have a 10year old van.

You posted this on a watch forum?

Lol.

[deanlad]

You posted this on a watch forum?

Lol.

Ha. It is quite ironic.
I am on a strict 1 watch ownership rule.
It could have been i have a love of horology , but only have a £50 G shock.
I do have a love of horology and could sell the watch i have for maybe £2k, but it wouldn't get an upgrade on the Hilux I have.

[jaytip]

Diesels days have been numbered ever since the emissions controversy & I would even say they were numbered as far back as when Europe introduced legislation that required the use of a Diesel Particulate filter (DPF).

Before the DPF, diesel and petrol was a personal choice based on which one rathered to drive or which a person thought was more economical.
Once the DPF came along it removed the choice of diesels from anyone who wants something for short commutes, i.e. most people who live in and dont really leave city/towns.

I have a diesel, it was economical and never had a problem with it until i moved closer to work.
Now im not doing enough mileage at high enough rev's for the DPF cleaning function to kick in.
it requires the car running uninterrupted at 60kph+ for a min of 15 minutes for the engine to get hot enough to trigger a cleaning cycle(regen).

This means at best i have to schedule a 30 minute drive down the motorway on the weekends and at worst, the DPF clogs up and ill be charged 200 quid by a deler to have it cleaned.
30 minutes time at the weekends to babysit my car is insane, my time is valuable, weekend is for my family, not for mollycuddling a diesel filter.

So for me, and most people living in the city, who stop, start, dont get over 40kph and certainly dont regularly get to drive at 60kph+ uninterrupted for a min of 15 mins, diesels are a non starter.

As regulations become stricter, diesel will not be applicable to more and more people. It will probably be taxed to oblivion before that happens though.

What car do you drive? My last three cars have been two Skoda Superb‘s and an E Class. All diesels and all taxis. My average speed for the working day is often not over 20mph and despite a total combined mileage of over 350K (the oldest of the three was a 63plate) I have never had a DPF issue.

[Beanie]

My son has run Honda Civics (diesel) for the last 5 years and his typical mileage is a two journeys of about 10 mins each way every day to work. His mileage at the weekends is peanuts and it is the typical 66mpg that makes him a diesel fanatic.

He has never had a DPF problem.

I was aware of the DPF issues when I bought my diesel Civic as my journeys to work are about 8 mikes each way. The 1.6 i-dtec apparently was designed for a DPF and it was positioned just after the exhaust manifold to consistently and rapidly heat up (unlike a lot if older engines which had them chucked wherever they would fit). I actually got it in writing that it would be fine for my driving requirements. I only had the Civic 9 months (nothing wrong with the car whatsoever) during which time I had 2 regenerations.

[Nealywheelie]

I would like to see a schedule set out for scrapping cars based on a combination of engine size and emissions. Polluted air moves so why limit environmental and health concerns to just cities.

For example -
- by 31/12/2019 - engines over 3000cc or over 250mg
- by 31/12/2020 - engines over 2500cc or over 225mg
- by 31/12/2021 - engines over 2250cc or over 200mg
- by 31/12/2022 - engines over 2000cc or over 175mg
- by 31/12/2023 - engines over 2000cc and over 150mg
- by 31/12/2024 - engines over 2000cc and over 130mg
- by 31/12/2025 - engines over 2000cc or over 130mg

If you want to keep a car over the limit for an additional 1 year the road fund licence should be £10,000, for an additional second year £30,000. Then that is it.

Christ!

[Idc0001]

I would like to see a schedule set out for scrapping cars based on a combination of engine size and emissions. Polluted air moves so why limit environmental and health concerns to just cities.

For example -
- by 31/12/2019 - engines over 3000cc or over 250mg
- by 31/12/2020 - engines over 2500cc or over 225mg
- by 31/12/2021 - engines over 2250cc or over 200mg
- by 31/12/2022 - engines over 2000cc or over 175mg
- by 31/12/2023 - engines over 2000cc and over 150mg
- by 31/12/2024 - engines over 2000cc and over 130mg
- by 31/12/2025 - engines over 2000cc or over 130mg

If you want to keep a car over the limit for an additional 1 year the road fund licence should be £10,000, for an additional second year £30,000. Then that is it.

And how would you deal with classics?

[Huertecilla]

The issues around inner city solution is not just down to cars, but motorists remain an easy target.

Take Madrid.

With the onset of the crisis, use of cars dipped sharply. Over a decade later it still is not at the same level.
Yet the pollution problem has kept increasing.
So polluting cars have been increasingly strictly banned from an ever increasing centre.
Pollution keeps aumenting.
Seems obvious that the car is only part of the problem no?!

Alas it remains an easy target and we have swallowed hook line and sinker that is a politically correct thing to take green measures against it. Win-win for the State! Never mind it is not by far the sole problem thus no solution to health issues.

[adrianw]

Just seem on the news that there is a new steam train service in London,

https://londonist.com/london/transpo...dsor-mayflower

You couldn’t make it up

[solwisesteve]

I was reading an interesting trade paper yesterday about H2 fuel. So this is where you have a source of hydrogen which goes through a fuel cell and is converted to electricity and then to the cars propulsion system... so think of it like an alternative battery. So the major problem with using H2 is the distribution and filling. Anyway some Aussie-isreal team have a new liquid fuel which is BH4/water. You run this through a catalyst and off comes H2; 50% from the water and 50% from the BH4. The solution is no more toxic than petrol and the distribution system is exactly the same as used for petrol i.e. tanker delivers to 'gas' station and it's then put into the vehicle the same as petrol is in an ic car. So fill up in a minute. Also, per Kg, it is 15 times more energy dense than the best current battery. Now this sounds like a way of making electric vehicles work as a viable day-to-day vehicle!

[Dave+63]

I was reading an interesting trade paper yesterday about H2 fuel. So this is where you have a source of hydrogen which goes through a fuel cell and is converted to electricity and then to the cars propulsion system... so think of it like an alternative battery. So the major problem with using H2 is the distribution and filling. Anyway some Aussie-isreal team have a new liquid fuel which is BH4/water. You run this through a catalyst and off comes H2; 50% from the water and 50% from the BH4. The solution is no more toxic than petrol and the distribution system is exactly the same as used for petrol i.e. tanker delivers to 'gas' station and it's then put into the vehicle the same as petrol is in an ic car. So fill up in a minute. Also, per Kg, it is 15 times more energy dense than the best current battery. Now this sounds like a way of making electric vehicles work as a viable day-to-day vehicle!

At least 50% of your hydrogen is fantasy!

You can’t take water, produce hydrogen and then use it as a fuel creating water as a by product.

[Chinnock]

It’s called “Guilt Tax” and has become all the rage these days.

[adrianw]

At least 50% of your hydrogen is fantasy!

You can’t take water, produce hydrogen and then use it as a fuel creating water as a by product.

I know these people very well and they are claiming very high efficiencies for fuel cell driven vehicles
http://www.revolve.co.uk/index.php/s...mission-engine

[solwisesteve]

At least 50% of your hydrogen is fantasy!

You can’t take water, produce hydrogen and then use it as a fuel creating water as a by product.

Correct.... You can't take water in as a fuel and then water out.

This uses 2xH20 + BH4 in. BO2 + lots of H2 out.

[solwisesteve]

I know these people very well and they are claiming very high efficiencies for fuel cell driven vehicles
http://www.revolve.co.uk/index.php/s...mission-engine

Using H2 as a fuel source has very big advantages over the traditional battery idea - High energy density, fast fill up, much more eco friendly - but is let down by the distribution side. Distribution seems to be the only (major) issue. If this can be done as a simple aqueous mix then sounds like a win-win! Also, as a water solution, this is a lot less dangerous than batteries if there's a crash.

Fuel cells are only about 60% efficient but that's because of waste heat. If you can use that heat then we're talking 85% efficiency which I'd wager is better than a battery like lithium-ion. There are already ERS systems on the table to use the heat to generate electricity (aka F1 cars).

[Dave+63]

I know these people very well and they are claiming very high efficiencies for fuel cell driven vehicles
http://www.revolve.co.uk/index.php/s...mission-engine

That’s entirely different Adrian, the post I was referring to suggests putting water into a tank (along with BH4), converting it to hydrogen and then using the hydrogen to power a vehicle.

On the subject of your link, whilst 45% efficiency is good, it’s still nowhere near the 90+% efficiency of just using electricity directly. I do, however, appreciate that the refuelling times would possibly be considerably lower using hydrogen fuel and that could benefit commercial fleet operators.

Whilst I don’t believe that FCEVs will be adopted mainstream in domestic vehicles, there will probably be a niche for it in certain commercial applications.

[Dave+63]

Correct.... You can't take water in as a fuel and then water out.

This uses 2xH20 + BH4 in. BO2 + lots of H2 out.

Do you have a link? I’d be interested in having a read of that.

[solwisesteve]

That’s entirely different Adrian, the post I was referring to suggests putting water into a tank (along with BH4), converting it to hydrogen and then using the hydrogen to power a vehicle.

On the subject of your link, whilst 45% efficiency is good, it’s still nowhere near the 90+% efficiency of just using electricity directly. I do, however, appreciate that the refuelling times would possibly be considerably lower using hydrogen fuel and that could benefit commercial fleet operators.

Whilst I don’t believe that FCEVs will be adopted mainstream in domestic vehicles, there will probably be a niche for it in certain commercial applications.

See my last two posts.

[solwisesteve]

Do you have a link? I’d be interested in having a read of that.

https://www.eenewsautomotive.com/new...d-refuelling-0

[Dave+63]

https://www.eenewsautomotive.com/new...d-refuelling-0

Thanks.

Fuel cells are only about 60% efficient but that's because of waste heat. If you can use that heat then we're talking 85% efficiency which I'd wager is better than a battery like lithium-ion. There are already ERS systems on the table to use the heat to generate electricity (aka F1 cars).

Steve, do you really think that taking electricity, converting it to hydrogen, burning it in a fuel cell to create electricity to drive a motor can ever be more efficient than taking the electricity, storing it in a battery and using it to drive the motor? Even if you can recover some of the heat energy wasted?

Having said that, the fuel you’ve linked to doesn’t have to be particularly efficient because that’s not what the politicians are looking for. They’re looking for the easiest way to raise tax from the motorist and if they can continue to use the current model (albeit with an additional fuel) then that’s what they’ll pursue.

[Dave+63]

https://www.eenewsautomotive.com/new...d-refuelling-0

The only two issues are that they need hydrogen to produce the fuel and the catalysts will need replacing regularly. So there’s still the cost of producing the hydrogen (although not the transportation issues) and they haven’t mentioned the relative costs of producing the catalysts.

[P ELLIS]

For people who drive cars of that age and older who regularly go into the congestion zone, probably. Personally, I drive a 3.5 year old diesel and drive 40,000 miles per annum, predominantly on motorways and A-roads and have managed to avoid the zone for at least the last 120,000 miles so will be replacing the current car in October with another diesel. Until such time as petrol or petrol hybrids catch up the 80+mpg I'm currently enjoying or, when electric vehicles can reliably provide a range of 600 miles, I'll be sticking with diesel.

me too, currently looking for a small diesel to do mile munching for the next few years .electric are not really an option as i cannot plug em in at the other end or get the range

[Maysie]

Overall the shift to electric vehicles is still a good thing IMHO. Especially if you end up with one of these :

Oooh.
That is rather nice.

I would prefer a hard-top version, but I couldn't afford it anyway
....even though I have no idea know how much it cost to build, I know I don't have enough....

[solwisesteve]

Thanks.



Steve, do you really think that taking electricity, converting it to hydrogen, burning it in a fuel cell to create electricity to drive a motor can ever be more efficient than taking the electricity, storing it in a battery and using it to drive the motor? Even if you can recover some of the heat energy wasted?

Having said that, the fuel you’ve linked to doesn’t have to be particularly efficient because that’s not what the politicians are looking for. They’re looking for the easiest way to raise tax from the motorist and if they can continue to use the current model (albeit with an additional fuel) then that’s what they’ll pursue.

err... yes I do. The losses in efficiency sending electricity to the home/charger are about 5%. Then there's the losses in the charging process. The actual fuel to energy process for a fuel cell can be roughly the same efficiency as the battery. Plus the much higher energy density has to be factored in i.e. less weight, fewer charge ups etc....

Yes... at the end of the day how easy it is to tax might be the clincher and using a liquid fuel is ideal for the tax man ;-)

[Enoch]

You are all making me want a petrol V8 more and more. Fossil fuels are finite. Enjoy them while you can.

Go for it.... just checked, my 2016 5.0V8 Mustang is exempt as is the wife’s 2006 5.7V8 Hemi grand Cherokee..

Not sure why the Cherokee is exempt, maybe because it’s duel fuel (LPG)

[cbh]

Why hasn't biodiesel taken off more, I know nothing of the science behind it but on a brief look it seems like a good idea?

[vagabond]

Go for it.... just checked, my 2016 5.0V8 Mustang is exempt as is the wife’s 2006 5.7V8 Hemi grand Cherokee..

Not sure why the Cherokee is exempt, maybe because it’s duel fuel (LPG)

I think the Cherokee may be Euro 4 compliant, hence the exemption - not because it's dual fuel. I also have a (registered) dual fuel car but it's not Euro 4 compliant, and not exempt from the ULEZ.

[Dave+63]

err... yes I do. The losses in efficiency sending electricity to the home/charger are about 5%. Then there's the losses in the charging process. The actual fuel to energy process for a fuel cell can be roughly the same efficiency as the battery. Plus the much higher energy density has to be factored in i.e. less weight, fewer charge ups etc....

Yes... at the end of the day how easy it is to tax might be the clincher and using a liquid fuel is ideal for the tax man ;-)

From Wikipedia.




It’s quite a stretch to get to the 90% (approx) of grid to battery to wheel.

[Enoch]

I think the Cherokee may be Euro 4 compliant, hence the exemption - not because it's dual fuel. I also have a (registered) dual fuel car but it's not Euro 4 compliant, and not exempt from the ULEZ.

Ahh right👍

[deanlad]

I think the Cherokee may be Euro 4 compliant, hence the exemption - not because it's dual fuel. I also have a (registered) dual fuel car but it's not Euro 4 compliant, and not exempt from the ULEZ.

I do believe you are correct, Euro 3 the cut off point....
Euro 4 regs for petrol and you have exemption...
So again we can enjoy the Mrs fuel guzzling 3.2ltr Freelander I6....

[steptoe]

Not only diesels, motorbikes and mopeds have to pay too. Private hire has to pay but black cabs are exempt.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...opeds-and-more

Eddie

Plus the ulez is 24/7 - i work in Soho a couple nights a week, i park my motorbike at 8pm, leave work at 1.30-2am. This will cost me £25 as the chrage runs from midnight to midnight, to use public transport to get home to where i live at 2am takes one and half hours, as opposed to 20 minutes on my bike ..

[Pete D]

Plus the ulez is 24/7 - i work in Soho a couple nights a week, i park my motorbike at 8pm, leave work at 1.30-2am. This will cost me £25 as the chrage runs from midnight to midnight, to use public transport to get home to where i live at 2am takes one and half hours, as opposed to 20 minutes on my bike ..

Surely you're too old to still be selling your wares in Soho........

[Kingstepper]

Why hasn't biodiesel taken off more, I know nothing of the science behind it but on a brief look it seems like a good idea?

Advantage is net CO2 emissions low. Everything else (particulates, NOx, hydrocarbons) similar to normal diesel.

[Darkeeboy]

Go for it.... just checked, my 2016 5.0V8 Mustang is exempt as is the wife’s 2006 5.7V8 Hemi grand Cherokee..

Not sure why the Cherokee is exempt, maybe because it’s duel fuel (LPG)

We should cruise through London in our V8’s, just because!!


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