Reply With QuoteSuperb research Carl and you make a very convincing case, to me at least.
Hello all,
For a while I have been aware that The Helvetia Watch Company were using a 'cross' shaped shock protection system at about the time they patented their own system in 1930. By 1935 they had stopped using it and only produced watches with their own patent design. This was a bit of a mystery to me, I wasn't sure if it was an earlier version of their own system or something else.
Recently someone pointed out the similarity of the shock protection to Depollier watches using the Brun shock protection system. Digging further into Depollier watches I discovered that they developed 'waterproof' watches during WW1 and had also patented an early shock protection system. In the 1920s they ran into financial difficulties and J Depollier and Son was dissolved, following a couple of false starts eventually in 1926 a new company The Depollier Watch Corporation was set up. Apparently due to supply issues with US movement manufacturers because of their financial problems they turned to the Swiss to provide a new version of their waterproof watch. No example of this watch was known to exist until Stan Czubernat of LRF Antique Watches discovered one in 2017.
I believe this watch, the only one of these known to exist, was made by The Helvetia Watch Company for Depollier.
I'll lay out my reasoning here:
The silver case carries Swiss hallmarks that I understand were in use between the mid 1920s and 1933. It is also marked Depollier Watch Corp and we know that this company wasn't formed until 1926. The inner case back carries a serial number 348xxxx which, if this watch were made by Helvetia, would date the watch to 1927. (General Watch Company/Helvetia serial numbers between 1925 and 1935 range from 34xxxxx to 38xxxxx. With other factors this is a good indicator of a Helvetia watch as there were not many other manufacturers with such high serial numbers at this time).
During the 1930s Helvetia sold many waterproof and shockproof watches to retailers who rebranded them but they almost always carried a Helvetia serial number. G & M Lane of London with their Aero and Aeroplane watches, Abercrombie & Fitch with their Shipmate and Huber from Germany with their Nautica and Secura lines.
The cross shaped shock protection on this watch is exactly the same as on early Helvetia marked watches, it is different to the Depollier/Brun shock protection from earlier Depollier watches. I have not seen this particular variant on any watch other than those I believe were made by Helvetia. The movement is an FHF movement and though Helvetia mainly used their own movements I have examples of them using FHF movements with this shock protection in Helvetia watches at this time.
Then there is the very distinctive 'waterproof' crown. Several years ago I found the patent below, registered by The General Watch Co, the parent company of Helvetia, in 1927. Until I saw a picture of the Depollier I had never seen a watch with this type of crown and said as much on my website. It looks like a pretty good match to me.
CLAIM:
Wristwatch with winding, characterized in that the winding crown is mounted on a tube welded to the watch case by means of a compressible seal, the winding crown pressing on said lining, under the action of a clamp hinged to the tube and acting at the top of the crown.
SUB-CLAIM:
Winding according to the claim, characterized in that the winding crown has, at its apex, a concave part, in which is engaged and maintained an indented part of the clamp.
So this patent means no-one else should have been making watches with this sort of crown.
What do you think?
I have gone into more detail about the link I think exists between Helvetia and Depollier on my site, have a look: https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/blog
Thanks. Carl.
Superb research Carl and you make a very convincing case, to me at least.
Thanks Simon. I was digging for info about the early shock protection and movements but when I saw that crown I knew it matched the Helvetia patent. There's always something to new to find out about Helvetia. I'm wondering if this relationship with Depollier pushed them in the direction of specialising in shock and water protected watches?Originally Posted by alfat33
That is indeed an exceptional piece of deduction; it reminds me that I should probably resurrect one of my Ebay saved searches for Helvetia. As a matter of interest, what size is the watch in the OP?
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Slim pickings recently Alan, but we can always hope.
I know, I know. All these beatniks in their black suits hoovering up all of the bargains...
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
I want that.
What a story.
Reading that was a trip down memory lane - like finding out about the real stories behind watches we all take for granted but much much better - and much much better than made up heritage.
Gray
What a fascinating historical find - and great research.
Out of interest, what is the purpose (if any) of the pair of raised "bumps" on opposing sides (11:30 and 5:30) of the bezel? Are they fixed in those positions or can they be rotated around the face?
I'm curious too although I had thought they were to help screw the bezel down securing the glass into place thereby assisting water resist and probably atmospheric pressure too?
Gray
The original Depollier waterproof from 1919 had these same "bumps" and were indeed for tightening the case front and rear with a (supplied) key:
Original 1919 advert.
Thanks Bobee, you just saved me typing up a long description that I had started!
I am not an expert on these watches by any means and don't want to take credit for finding this watch. My area is Helvetia and the link between the two companies. I found the link as I was trying to confirm that a couple of 1920s FHF movements with added shock protection were in Helvetia watches even though they weren't marked.
From that, with thanks to Bobee actually, I came to Depollier. Below is a pic of one of the watches I was trying to identify, you can see the similarities and if one was a Helvetia then why not the other. When I saw the crown I knew I had seen it before in the patent by Helvetia, the serial number was the additional proof. Have a look at the page on my site I linked to in my initial post, I go into more detail about the use of the Depollier shock protection etc.
Superb - many thanks enfield and bobbee for the updates.
Threads like this are absolutely fascinating and help make TZ-UK such a great forum.
I believe the Depollier is 35mm, the same size as the similar cased 1940s Helvetia in the post on my site.
Hello again. For those of you who may be interested in this thread.Thanks Bobee, you just saved me typing up a long description that I had started!
I am not an expert on these watches by any means and don't want to take credit for finding this watch. My area is Helvetia and the link between the two companies. I found the link as I was trying to confirm that a couple of 1920s FHF movements with added shock protection were in Helvetia watches even though they weren't marked.
From that, with thanks to Bobee actually, I came to Depollier. Below is a pic of one of the watches I was trying to identify, you can see the similarities and if one was a Helvetia then why not the other. When I saw the crown I knew I had seen it before in the patent by Helvetia, the serial number was the additional proof. Have a look at the page on my site I linked to in my initial post, I go into more detail about the use of the Depollier shock protection etc.
I have just found today the confirmation that the unbranded watches I was trying to tie down, and almost certainly the Depollier waterproof watch, with the adapted FHF movements with the addition of the shock protection and unique bridge config etc were Helvetia watches as I suspected.
Just waiting for the serial number to confirm a date; 1931 -34 I would say going by the logo etc.
I saw your post on MWR Carl, excellent research and I think pretty much definitive now.
I also saw that watch go up for sale and something struck me about it looking post-war. I’m going to have to rethink a few that in the past I thought were frankens.
Hi Simon. Yes, if you mean the other late Pilots watch it looks quite new doesn't it. I'm sure that one is 1960 ish not to be confused with the one above which is early thirties!
I think there are probably a lot less Franken watches and a lot more odd but correct watches about than people realise. I have been doing work on Helvetia DH watches and I think I have found only a couple that are dodgy but there are some oddities. I'm going to post something about it in the next week or so.
I had quite a good 10 minutes yesterday morning, found the watch above which confirms the FHF with early shock protection were from Helvetia, found the late pilots watch which confirms Helvetia were still making them around 1960 and also bought 5 new old stock Helvetia DIH marked cases!
Last edited by enfield; 18th June 2019 at 18:53.
Hello again, I have just received the advert replicated in part below from the LCH 1949.
With The General Watch Co/Helvetia advertising this movement as their famous shock proof movement used in their Helvetia waterproof watches by 1929 as well as proving that these watches are by Helvetia as I thought I also think this proves my case for the Depollier also being by Helvetia, albeit using a larger version of the movement. With the movement now being proved to be adapted by General/Helvetia and the crown patented by General/Helvetia and the serial number fitting with General/Helvetia for 1927 I don't think there can be any other conclusion.
Thanks to those of you who have contributed to this research.
Last edited by enfield; 20th August 2019 at 10:44.
Some more evidence ref these early shock protected watches has just come my way.
I’ve spotted this ‘Roirol’ watch with more or less exactly the same dial and movement as the Depollier. The differences are down to the smaller size I believe. The silver case has an Edinburgh hallmark for 1927 and the serial number, which is only 27000 away from the Depollier, would also date this watch to 1927 if the serial number was a General Watch Company one as I believe.
The barrel on this movement also bears the ‘3 Adjustments dot star dot’ text in the distinctive font as seen on Helvetia/General Watch Co watches of the 20s/30s.
The name ‘Roirol’ was registered to the Glasgow wholesale jeweller William Tankel Hyman in 1925.
I’m absolutely sure all these watches were made by Helvetia/General Watch Co.
For comparison see this Helvetia dialled watch with the same case as the one above, serial number from 1930 and adapted AS movement. Note the same shock protection and text on the barrel.
And this sterile dial. Again the same case and barrel text with Helvetia Cal 81 movement and serial number from 1934. Chromex was a Helvetia trade mark registered in 1929.
See my blog post here ref these watches if you haven’t seen it before:
https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/po...ier-watch-corp
Thanks. Carl.
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