There's always an exception to the "rule"Originally Posted by sunaxi
The sole example I think of is the spur of the moment purchase (think graduation, birthday, milestone) and said party wanders into AD. If the donor says there ‘let’s see what catches your eye’ I assume there will be more likihood of exiting the AD with a Rolex
I really hope that’s the case as it’s a win win for everybody, and they don’t just use that capacity to produce more TT watches
My wife automatically assumes a Rolex costs at least 30k (it does give me hope when it comes to acquiring my grail she doesn’t file for divorce!)
With the bigger profit margins available on the TT watches would be no surprise if that is what we see landing in AD’s windows this year rather than the steel.
Unfortunately I feel that the steel sports will still end up brand new unworn at the usual secondary market outlets. Maybe with the release of a second Gmt on the jubilee we might see a softening on prices from the ridiculous Pepsi heights but probably still looking at a 100% mark up. Rolex sports now on the secondary market at the same cost of many Audemars offshores, which one would you prefer!
You share my concerns. Im sure that the updated BLNR will be just as much demand as the BLRO especially as the outgoing model has soared even higher in value in the grey market. I’m on the notification of interest for the BLRO (six to eight years lol) and one AD has me down for a latest BLNR but await to hear when Baselworld dust settles maybe I will get an idea of (if) I can get one in 2020 as they won’t start arriving in ADs until later this year :(
Is there? The TT Professional Series watches are usually the least liked and, in the past at least, been often discounted.
at the same time they could approach this model to create 'hype' around their watches. Especially if ADs ask you to have a history with them in which case you can only create a history by buying the 'lower' ranges of rolex. From rolex's perspective they are selling not only the lower range watches but also the ones where demand outstrips supply.
Two tone sub is £10350, stainless is £6750. There isn’t nearly £4k of gold.... so I’d say there’s a lot more profit for the same case, movement, crystal and caseback. Only the bezel/inset/crown/Centre links/clasp re different!
I see both points of view here; whilst there isn’t £4K of gold in the TT, if it’s discounted by, say, £2k then you’re getting to less than a £2k premium.
There could be £2k of gold in the head and bracelet so they’re not necessarily more profitable for the AD although they are for Rolex because the AD is still paying the higher ex works price.
And although the list might be £6750 if you buy from a grey dealer the prices are much closer. I would think that people will soon feel that TT and gold are better value than steel and the margins would be better for Rolex on those models.
I feel that the number of people buying high value watches without any previous research are now very low. Rolex promote their sports models all over the World regardless of the fact that there are virtually none available Worldwide in their AD network. This is the age of the internet, so all a buyer has to do is Google the brand and they will be presented with the mass of reviews and articles on the various favourites. Or they will have seen the Sub or GMT on someone’s wrist and like the look. When they visit the Rolex website they find the model they want, then go to a dealer and find they can’t get it. At this point a dealer will show them a gold or TT datejust and they will say they prefer a sporty divers watch in steel. The dealer will be happy to sell them one made by Omega or another brand. Because Omega and Breitling and the other mainstream well known brands are also sold by most Rolex dealers.
Also, there are two reasons for ADs passing on watches to grey dealers. Over supply and under supply. If a dealer has way too many Datejusts and needs to shift some they will discount them out the back door to a trusted grey dealer just like they do the under supplied models at a premium.
Also my own observation has been that Rolex have taken under supply to an extreme. If a steel Sub or GMT is unavailable to people who want them for long enough it will become as if the models don’t actually exist. People hold off on purchasing. The period of high desire passes, thoughts turn to other things and the money is spent on something else completely like a car or holiday.
Right now I want a Rolex GMT2LN and have been trying to buy another (without success) since I foolishly sold my last one. I have looked at the options since finding it has been cancelled and not seen anything I like. Seems Rolex don’t want to give us choice. I can’t really think why as all they have to do is assemble in a modular manner like they do Datejusts. The buyer could choose bezel colour, bracelet style, and type of metal.
With this strange way of doing things, I am finding it hard to love Rolex. The last thing I would do is buy a model I don’t really want from them out of frustration. I am watch aware but not a true WIS as are an increasingly large proportion of buyers.
That sounds like good news.
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I agree. The day the waiting lists go down will be the day lots of people will lose interest. Lots of people have jumped on the bandwagon for the kudos if owning SS model.
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I think Enzo Ferrari said always build at least one car less then the demand for it to keep it desirable. I think Rolex happy to take to the next level
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Rolex have always tried to operate a very efficient JIT sales model. Supplying to accommodate demand is the aspirational model for all sales
It's just a matter of time...
This
This made me smile!
I suspect a lot of the customers are enticed in because of the exclusive nature of the watches.
The whole scarcity trick started by accident with the 16520 when the modified Zenith mechanisms were rationed.
Yes and because of the scarcity back then, the effect compounds as the years roll by. The 16520 is still highly sought after today and will probably be even more sought after in say twenty years from now.
This makes the purchase of Rolex rather inexpensive when the total cost of ownership is taken into account and makes it dead easy to convince the wife that Rolex is better than cash in the bank.
Plenty here seem to agree, but I think this underestimates how much the internet is driving the current market. A huge number of people have been exposed to the sports models, the vintage market, the economics of rare models and so on, and they are approaching the purchase with that in mind. At first the scramble for unavailable watches and high resale prices only enhances the brand and the appearance of exclusivity, in what is ultimately a mass market brand. But I sense a tipping point in online opinion where the mood of the crowd is turning ugly. They may decide to buy something else and discover they like it. Then again Rolex continue to offer value for money that’s hard to beat, taking into account the ‘glamour’ factor and resale, for anyone who’s not actively turned off by the brand or the current designs. Someone who’s heart is set on ‘a Rolex’ may struggle to convince themselves that they really want an Omega, no matter how much Omega pays George Clooney and Daniel Craig.
At the end of the day, if people allow themselves to be treated as doormats, some will treat you as such. I don't think any watch is worth that. There has to be a clear understanding about how badly you want a watch. If it is THAT important, pay the premium and buy it. Otherwise check out a few ADs, if they have a 'list' put your name down and wait patiently. If your name comes up, it comes up.All the bellyaching and hand wringing and spelling doomsday for Rolex is just sour grapes. Life can be fine
Without a Rolex. Show some maturity and self respect. Don't act like a desperate lover nor like a jilted lover. It is just a watch after all. Don't lose ( also known in some quarters as 'loose') your perspective.
This also applies to the thread-what do you look for in an AD?
Now how about another Rolex thread?
Last edited by RAJEN; 27th March 2019 at 14:18.
The current model works a treat for Rolex, don't see why they would change it. Personally I think they should use a similar model to buying a car. Pop down your local AD, place an order with deposit and get a build date and an expected delivery date.
So you agree the system works well for them and can’t see any reason for them to change it. Yet you still think that they should change it to be more like buying a car? Why?
With a business head on - Leave it as it is.
As a customer - I would like to see the latter.
Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.
My cousin recently turned 18, and was given a beautiful Omega Seamaster - one of the new wavy dial ceramic ones. Lovely.
His Dad has had a Rolex Sub since his 18th, worn every day, and suitably wabi. Turns out, he'd tried to buy a Rolex for his boy, went to or called every dealer he could find in Scotland, but only came up with second hand ones. He had no idea of the "shortage" in supply of these things, and now his son has an Omega.
Surely if the demand is there, increase the supply?
Their previous model also seemed to work well too, 5-10 years ago you could buy what you wanted except for a Daytona and the company appeared to be doing well, customers appeared to be happy.
I agree though with the car model, it makes no sense for Watchfinder (Richemont) to make more profit on a Daytona/BLNR than a Rolex AD. Retail is going online and direct everywhere else so the luxury watch market will follow suit. Omega have tested the direct online ordering approach already with SpeedyTuesday's and sell straps online.
I have no idea how this whole "I can't buy a rolex" thing perpetuates?! i've said it before and I'll say it again, watches from my AD in the last 18 months with no other purchasing history...
BLNR
SD43
Daytona
Hulk
DSSD-JC
Be patient, be polite, make sure they know you aren't in it for the money. Maybe I'm not being looked after, no Pepsi yet I guess!
Hard life...
well that is impressive and unusual. well done and ...I'm jealous...you lucky sod! enjoy them.
I really don't think it is and I'm not, that's what I'm saying. Maybe it's not for everyone but I'm well aware of what it takes to build a relationship in business and sales and if I'm not mistaken, I think I can do it.
I'm not going around bribing sales reps or managers or even blowing smoke up someone's @rse, but I honestly believe the one person I deal with at a national chain knows I love the watches and we both get something out of it. They hit their target, keep a spender spending and generate the belief that I'm actually feeling privileged to work all year and spend my hard earned money on their trinkets!
Which is ridiculous when you think about it.
But I love the watches and if it wasn't for them, I'd be spending thousands more.
One important point and I really think it is important. There's no way I could buy all those watches in one go even if I wanted to. So by drip-feeding me them over a few years they get to make me feel special (building the relationship) even though if I turned up and they offered me all of the above, I couldn't buy them all anyways.
In a very slightly different market they'd be utterly genius and devious.
As it is, they're utterly genius but I'm protected by the re-sale values that keeps the whole thing turning. It won't take much to make the merry-go-round stop however...
There used to be a particular AD who I developed a really good rapor over the years. At that time I could not afford over £2K or £3K for a new watch but eventually after a bereavement in the family I wanted to buy a watch in remembrance and ended up getting my Patek 5146J from them - they let me try and even take home a couple of other Patek and JLC of the same price range. Superb salesmanship. Sadly the shop was merged into a bigger chain and all the original staff left and the store was refurbished. I haven't been in since except a couple of times. It takes years to build up such a relationship and I tend not to buy new these days. Anyway, I haven't seen any sign off steel Rolex in any AD recently and whenever asking there are mumblings of lists or waiting years for these 'unicorns tears'.
Martyn
Well if you're not lucky you are skilled in some way. Simple polite, regular contact to show and build the impression that you are serious in your interest is not often going to be enough in London.
The thing is you can just walk in a order a from an AD. I have done just that recently for a DJ 28, looked at a few and then picked one out of the current catalogue, paid a deposit and then told to expect it in 4 -16 weeks.
So in the last 18 months you've dropped c.£40k +?....on watches at this one dealer. I know we all have different financial circumstances but that doesn't seem like 'normal customer' to me - no wonder they take you seriously!
Because it's a fact that is reported here very very regularly! If the sought after Rolex models were readily available, they wouldn't command such utterly ridiculous premiums in the grey market!
If you think that is generally achievable then you couldn't be more wrong. I'm patient, polite and not interested in flipping watches but I know I am miles behind customers who spend a lot more than I could ever dream of and who buy things other than the sought after professional models. If you had no relationship 18 months ago and then bought all those watches then your AD would have some pretty furious long term customers if they found out!
You and I can build relationships until we are blue in the face but Rolex ADs do not receive sufficient stock to meet demand for professional SS models. The sensible thing for them to do, commercially, is to prioritise sales of sought after models to customers who put most cash over the counter and who buy the hard-to-shift stock as well as the watches that sell themselves. If you have a different experience then that is the absolute exception and to suggest otherwise flies in the face of anything I have heard or read!
Not forgetting that Rolex has its own foundry having acquired a quantity of gold and platinum. Thus boosting its profit margin especially if they purchased at a favourable rate
Very much this.
My Uncle had the choice of "nearly new" Subs for thousands more than RRP, with no warranty cards, or second hand ones that in some cases were 20 years old and decidedly second hand, rather than vintage.
In the end he bought from a rival brand.
If it’s all about supply and demand and Rolex like to keep a tight supply chain with waiting lists then why do they have their most popular watch (DJ) in stock at most AD’s? Is it because it’s classed as a non WIS watch, more of a fashion accessory?
Rolex know exactly what they are doing like a puppet master, we are just the puppets..
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The simple truth is that the market for Rolex and PP is just like the housing market.
Those who own their own house are sitting pretty, no running costs and the continual annual price increases suits them perfectly as one day the house will either fund their care in a retirement home or be passed onto the kids. The more clever ones are like the WISs who are sitting on a collection of watches, sitting happy as they get richer by the day.
Those who don't own their own house don't want price increases for obvious reasons, just like those who don't have a Rolex but would like to own one.
Therefore those who own a collection of Rolex, can get themselves on a waiting list and are perfectly happy to wait for years for it to come along because although they want it, they don't need it as much as someone who has none.
Rolex can make more money by limiting supply and pushing up the margins which keeps them and the dealers happy and leaves a nice little pool of customers continuously buying, even if it is years after placing the order.
This is now the way of things and we have all to learn to live with it.
Foolish analogy, I think. People need houses...they don’t need luxury watches. The watch market could collapse without any effect whatsoever on the general economy. All it requires is a small drop-off in interest in mechanical watches. And that is probably age related.
As an investment, not for me......it’s a hobby not an incredibly dodgy attempt to fund my future.
It does not matter whether we need the commodity or not, prices will rise if demand exceeds supply.
I used to run a classic bike and sold my BSA last year, and the general view is that once old guys in their seventies sell their bikes, the market will crash. The reality is that the bikes are still selling well and prices are rising. It took me less than a day to sell mine.
Also older bikes from the WW1 are rocketing in value, so age related is not a given.
Watches are small and easy to keep and store away and the fact that some people have no interest in the investment angle is neither here nor there, it's the overall demand and the production volumes that dictate prices.
As for mechanical watches going out of fashion, that is possible but it is a risk we all take. We should enter the market with our eyes wide open.
I 'got' into watches in 2013. It was pretty much the same in 2013. Wanted a Sub Date 116610LN but they only had the 116610 LV with the green dial. The salesman was apologetic and said I can have the next one, which arrived 2 weeks later. Also got IFC, it was a small discount or IFC. I recall they had almost the entire range on display. This was the case with all main dealers in Glasgow.
Going back even further, in 2005 in Liverpool the sales lady literally dragged me into the shop and offered 15% discount and IFC for a GMT!
How times have changed! I feel there is little danger of people looking at other brands due to scarcity. For most buyers it is 'the' brand to own. For a very small minority (people on watch forums) it is irksome, they will look at other brands.
Last edited by 72bpm; 29th March 2019 at 11:58.
Re: For a very small minority (people on watch forums) it is irksome, they will look at other brands.
Or shout from the roof tops that they are looking at or going to buy other brands while in reality still looking for Rolex and hyperventilating on watch fora!
Horological equivalent of when a partner breaks up with someone and the person starts plastering social media with their pics with other girls/guys to entice their formal lover back.
Little do they realize that big watch companies are not scanning watch fora to decide their business strategies.
Typical jilted lover mentality:-)
Last edited by RAJEN; 29th March 2019 at 14:07.
Absolutely, I was, at one point thinking about getting a GMT -BLNR or BLRO. For some it is a matter of life & death, just like people waiting all night to be the first to get the latest apple product. The attitude of the dealers put me off. Rolex chooses to restrict supply, dealers are obnoxious. I'll take my business elsewhere.
I have already done that for those very reasons. I will not buy Rolex ever again even if their supply and prices become sensible. I have a long memory and basically *uck them for their attitude! Yes, I know Rolex care not one iota about me, it is entirely and permanently mutual!
And as if to prove the point.....
I think the supply situation is OTT at the moment. I spent most of this week in HK and Taipei and I must have walked past 20 Rolex AD's and official Rolex store. None (naturally) had any steel sports model on display, but also the TT and YG sport models were missing. I also spoke with a guy at huge Rolex store at HK airport, he said that they basically only had DJ and DD in stock. I think the scarcity has been good for Rolex, but it's definitely gone too far.
I think the only time it will improve is when a customer walks into the AD and is never able to obtain a discount. Walking in, buying a Rolex and shouting off to the world via the internet that you got a discount on your Rolex just cheaps the brand. Even worse is buying a discounted Rolex from a Grey Dealer.
Rolex want to create the impression that it is a priveledge to wear one of their products and I, for one, cannot blame them.
Err.....Rolex dealers routinely discount their more exotic models, and always have. As for it being a ‘privilege’ to wear a mass-produced watch , i’l pass on that one.
Even the sought-after steel models can be bought off the shelf, just pay the premium and there are loads of them. Expensive, yes, exclusive, far from it. The grey dealers have safes full of them. Bought from Rolex ADs.
Last edited by paskinner; 30th March 2019 at 18:01.
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