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Thread: Dial making revisited.

  1. #1
    Thomas Reid
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    Dial making revisited.

    Although I've made dials in the past, I've never been happy my process of making the physical dial, and, in particular, in adding dial feet. One problem is that although brazing on the feet results in them being strongly attached, the heat required tends to warp thin (0.4mm) dials, at least for someone as inexpert at brazing as I am. So, it was much too much hit or miss as to whether I could get a good dial. I've now moved to using resistance soldering and a lower temperature solder. It works reasonably well. The soldering machine is from London Road Models, and the solder is Stay-Brite (279C liquidus). I didn't realize how many steps there are in making a simple, blank dial until now, although it isn't overly time consuming.

    To get a blank, I use a circle cutting punch.



    It needs a centre hole.




    Since the punch sizes are incremental, it needs to be sized.

    Here's part of the fixture. I locate the dial with a spring loaded springy thing put in an arbor.



    Then a plastic plug and a live centre to hold the dial blank in place.



    Then I use adhesive to fix a layout of the dial feet and 3 o'clock to the blank. I get the layout by scanning the movement plate, using software to overlay the image of the movement plate with markers, deleting the image of the movement plate, and printing the markers on tracing paper. I then use a scribe to mark the position of the dial feet on the blank, and a very fine file made from an old razor blade to mark the 3 o'clock position on side of the dial blank.



    Now I take the marked blank and cut feet locating indents into it. They are 0.1 mm deep. Since the feet aren't at the centre, it is easiest and most accurate to put the dial blank in a chuck, and use a rotary tool in a holder on a milling slide. That way I have three way positional adjustment, and a very high speed drilling action.



    The dial feet are from copper wire which is straightened, cut, and given a slight point (in the small lathe).



    Finally, a soldering jig cobbled together from various bits and pieces. Perhaps someday I will make it lovely.



    There is very little extra heat in this soldering setup. The way that it works is that the power supply is low voltage, high amperage, with high resistance at the carbon end of the carbon gauging rod. One sets it up, then uses a foot pedal to close the circuit.

    I cut the dial feet to length, then use a burr to round the ends.

    The dial fits the movement well. I've been playing with this process for weeks now, and, most importantly, it is reasonably reproducible, which is a relief.

    Now I only (ha!) have to paint and print the dial.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 18th March 2019 at 20:20.

  2. #2
    A really interesting post. I look forward to seeing the finished product!

  3. #3
    I love threads like this, having little talent for practical things I'm always slightly in awe of those who do.

    Looking forward to seeing the finished dial!


    Thanks for posting

  4. #4
    Master Bodo's Avatar
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    Really interesting process thanks for posting. I remember reading your blog (?) and being inspired...would love to do something like this but I fear that is a long way off. Very much looking forward to the next steps being done so I hope you will post on the painting of the dial.:)

  5. #5
    Thomas Reid
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    Thanks. Apologies. This should be in Mods & Wreckers.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  6. #6
    Master
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    Interesting to see

  7. #7
    Master Saxon007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier View Post
    Thanks. Apologies. This should be in Mods & Wreckers.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    I'm glad it is here, I would've missed it in the M&W forum.

  8. #8
    Master Glen Goyne's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing! Looks impressive! Hope you post a second story on how to paint and print, curious to see the end results.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Craftsman JeppeRober's Avatar
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    Very informative, thanks for posting this, and i would also love to see updates when the painting commences.

  10. #10
    Craftsman
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    Fantastic ingenuity and knowledge of materials and processes. Thank you very much for posting.

  11. #11
    Master
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    thanks for posting,really enjoyed it..

  12. #12
    Great post, Bob.

    And this has given me a solution to an issue I've been struggling with for a while now, so thanks for that too.



    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  13. #13
    Very nice, I'm also a diy guy but dial making is something way beyond my skill set.

  14. #14
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Goyne View Post
    Hope you post a second story on how to paint and print, curious to see the end results.

    Me too, I love reading posts like this.

  15. #15
    Journeyman
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    Excellent, keep it up :-)

    Scottie

  16. #16
    I wish vBulletin had a way to upvote high quality posts like this so we would see more of them. Since there isn't, I'll just say keep up the good work

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    I wish vBulletin had a way to upvote high quality posts like this so we would see more of them. Since there isn't, I'll just say keep up the good work
    Well you can ‘rate the thread’.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Well you can ‘rate the thread’.
    I knew someone would say that. It's not remotely the same thing, because it doesn't affect ranking. That's probably why if you look at the star ratings, every thread is either unrated or has 5 stars. I think only one person actually uses it!

    /OT

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by robt View Post
    I knew someone would say that. It's not remotely the same thing, because it doesn't affect ranking. That's probably why if you look at the star ratings, every thread is either unrated or has 5 stars. I think only one person actually uses it!

    /OT
    How does not affecting rankings mean any thread is unrated or 5 star?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    How does not affecting rankings mean any thread is unrated or 5 star?
    The fact it does effectively nothing is why it's not used much.

  21. #21
    Thomas Reid
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    I like it when people find my posts of interest. Not sure that I would want to be involved with "like" or "dislike" buttons. Likely to end in tears.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  22. #22
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    What an interesting post Bob.

    Nice to see what you are up to.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  23. #23
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Fascinating stuff, I love reading your adventures in home watchmaking. Best keep them here not hidden away in Mods and Wreckers.
    One question - I would have tought it might be possible to solder the dial feet using the foot itself as the heating element (passing current directly through it), rather than applying an iron. Did you try that?
    Dave

  24. #24
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    Fascinating stuff, I love reading your adventures in home watchmaking. Best keep them here not hidden away in Mods and Wreckers.
    One question - I would have tought it might be possible to solder the dial feet using the foot itself as the heating element (passing current directly through it), rather than applying an iron. Did you try that?
    Dave
    The current does go through the dial foot. Look at the position of of the connection to the black wire. However, unless there is some resistance somewhere, it is just a thick wire and no soldering will occur. The carbon rod provides the resistance, causing localized heat.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  25. #25
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying, I thought my suggestion might work a little bit more like spot welding, which would use the reduced cross-sectional area of the dial foot itself (and specifically its point of contact to the dial) as the resistor.
    Cheers
    Dave

  26. #26
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    Thanks for clarifying, I thought my suggestion might work a little bit more like spot welding, which would use the reduced cross-sectional area of the dial foot itself (and specifically its point of contact to the dial) as the resistor.
    Cheers
    Dave
    Ah, I see. Factory dials are probably done this way. I could get a resistance spot welder and have a go. Perhaps someday.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  27. #27
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
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    Fascinating stuff, Bob - as others, I am very glad to see it here rather than hidden away in Mods & Wreckers. :)

  28. #28
    Thomas Reid
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    Although this is a repeat of some stuff posted a long time ago, I've refined the procedure a bit. Also, sorry about the pictures, they are from my phone.

    Here's the printing machine.



    One change I've made is that I taped a magnetic sheet to hold the dial. The dial is is attached to a steel disc, and the disc is put on the magnetic sheet. This makes registration (alignment) easier.



    In order to align the dial with the image, I put the steel disc on the magnet, and tape a bit of acetate over the dial using the bits of steel on either side to give the right height. I just print the image on the acetate, and move the disc so that the dial lines up with the image on the acetate. The steel disc move easily enough on the magnetic sheet when a bit of force is applied, but stays in place otherwise. The dial itself is held to the steel disc with a super special adhesive (Blu Tack). Holes are cut into the steel disc's centre, and where the dial feet are located.



    When all is lined up, I simply remove the acetate and print.



    You may notice that "f&j", "3", "6", "9" and "12" are not printed. I'm going to use another colour for this. Unfortunately, I have to wait days for the paint to dry. Why?

    I'm using this for the ink (or paint) for this colour. The lamp black and French ultramarine are for the colour. I prefer not to use pure black. The Liquin Impasto is to get the right stickiness for paint transfer. For this, I used 1/3 each.



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 17th April 2019 at 17:09.

  29. #29
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Sorry Bob. This is a fascinating post, but it needs a glossary to go with it.

    Maybe it is only me -

    but ‘feet’ to me only belong at the end of my legs.
    ‘Plate’ is something I eat my dinner off.

    Please explain terminology to this simpleton.

  30. #30
    Thomas Reid
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    A watch movement generally has a main plate on which bits of the movement are attached. Dials are attached to one side of the main plate by dial feet, which are inserted into holes on the plate.

    Here is a picture of a main plate.



    Here is a picture of a dial from the side. You can see the two protuberances, which are the dial feet.



    Best wishes,
    Bob

  31. #31
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    I love all this, proper adventures in watchmaking and self-teaching of crafts. Great stuff, thank you/

    So from what I recall, yours is a cliche printer, using a deformable solid ball to pick up the ink from your cliche. (?) The cliche is a plate into which the dial design has been etched using a photo etching process, and you fill the etched design with ink/paint using a pallet knife and a squeegee to clean the excess off. Is that about right?
    I am a bit confused as I recall that you did a previous post (some while back) where you managed to get to a printed dial photo enlarged enough to see the weave of a mesh through your design, but I feel that must have been some type of screen print rather than a cliche print. Is that the case?
    I guess my question is what level of detail is achievable using the set up that you have here? Have you tried varying sizes of font serif or fineness of index or index track line?
    Any chance of any macro shots to see the level of detail? I inherently feel this method should be capable of some quite sharp quality?
    Dave

  32. #32
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I love all this, proper adventures in watchmaking and self-teaching of crafts. Great stuff, thank you/

    So from what I recall, yours is a cliche printer, using a deformable solid ball to pick up the ink from your cliche. (?) The cliche is a plate into which the dial design has been etched using a photo etching process, and you fill the etched design with ink/paint using a pallet knife and a squeegee to clean the excess off. Is that about right?
    I am a bit confused as I recall that you did a previous post (some while back) where you managed to get to a printed dial photo enlarged enough to see the weave of a mesh through your design, but I feel that must have been some type of screen print rather than a cliche print. Is that the case?
    I guess my question is what level of detail is achievable using the set up that you have here? Have you tried varying sizes of font serif or fineness of index or index track line?
    Any chance of any macro shots to see the level of detail? I inherently feel this method should be capable of some quite sharp quality?
    Dave
    Here's a picture with a USB microscope. Not the very best picture, but quick. And the dial is far from perfect. I'm finishing up some cliches that are way out of date (10 years old), which have been stored in the attic (hot -> cold -> hot ...). Still ....



    Best wishes,
    Bob

  33. #33
    Thomas Reid
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    Here's a better picture for detail, using a regular macro lens, although the lighting I used makes the numerals at the top too light.



    Best wishes,
    Bob

  34. #34
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    Always nice to see people keeping the craft alilve.

  35. #35
    I love all this, proper adventures in watchmaking and self-teaching of crafts. Great stuff, thank you/
    Likewise, really interesting. Even if I had all the gear my lack of idea would prevent me doing anything like this, so seeing it done leaves me slightly in awe.

  36. #36
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    Very interesting and useful to know. Such skills are so valuable to keep alive. Thank you for sharing.
    Here's how I make them. A bit more in the old fashioned way !
    I made some enamel dials too but they were not perfect and so time consuming.
    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

  37. #37
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting the pictures, the dial looks great and the print quality is clearly pretty high as it is easy to distinguish the varying line thickness within the font very well. Great stuff.
    Dave

  38. #38
    Grand Master gray's Avatar
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    Interesting. These posts remind me of when watch making was a cottage industry in the UK. Individuals producing parts... making watches
    Gray

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gray View Post
    Interesting. These posts remind me of when watch making was a cottage industry in the UK. Individuals producing parts... making watches
    Well if Swatch get their way it will be the end of most repairers other than those who can swap movements.

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

  40. #40
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    Very interesting and useful to know. Such skills are so valuable to keep alive. Thank you for sharing.
    Here's how I make them. A bit more in the old fashioned way !
    I made some enamel dials too but they were not perfect and so time consuming.
    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
    The dial looks good. Wrist watch dials are more like 0.4mm thick, which is why I find brazing the dial feet difficult. The brass has a tendency to warp. Someone more expert than I am might be able to manage it. One could start with a thicker blank, and take it down to the right thickness. I've tried this, but holding and cutting is difficult, as it ends up being a facing operation on a very thin disc. Since the lower temperature resistance soldering seems to have sufficient mechanical strength, ....

    I've tried low temperature enamel (acrylic epoxy), but again, the build-up is too great, and I would have to start with a dial blank of 0.25mm, which is hard to work with. It would be possible to alter a case to take a thicker dial, but on most wrist watches the pinions for the hands assume a 0.4mm dial.

    High temperature enamel also requires a thicker blank. And the enamel build-up is significant. Older dials even have enamel on the back side of the dial, making them well over 1.0mm thick.

    What would be interesting is to use some sort of glass without an underlying brass blank. I've thought about it, but don't know how to work it.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  41. #41
    Craftsman
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    Bob,
    Did you anneal the brass sheet before brazing? Might help with the distortion, although lower temp soldering should be totally adequate for a printed dial.

    I’m working on dials at the moment myself, not got to the stage where I have a repeatable process to share though.

    How much ink is deposited? Do you have a visible lump?

    Dave

  42. #42
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    Wristwatch dials I have made are normally 0.80 to 0.90mm thick. Pocket watch dials go up to 1.20mm. Including enamel dials.
    Never 0.40mm. That's too thin.

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

  43. #43
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave S View Post
    Bob,
    Did you anneal the brass sheet before brazing? Might help with the distortion, although lower temp soldering should be totally adequate for a printed dial.

    I’m working on dials at the moment myself, not got to the stage where I have a repeatable process to share though.

    How much ink is deposited? Do you have a visible lump?

    Dave
    No, I haven't first annealed the brass. Good idea. But, since it works, I'll use the lower temp soldering for the moment.

    Pad printing is notorious for thin deposits. The printing on this dial is pretty flat. I can adjust the amount of deposit in two ways. The first is by exposing the cliche for a shorter time. This has some effect. The other way is to do a "double pump". My cliche for the missing numerals has an image that is a bit deeper. I'm disinclined to use a double pump, but not dead set against it. It very slightly increases the chances of something going wrong. If I were going for a raised numeral look, I would use a double pump, with a higher percentage of the Liquin Impasto in the second pump. The first layer would provide the high pigment base, while the second provides the texture.

    The results might be different when using commercial pad printing ink, which have different stickiness properties. I have some of this ink, but find it much too gunky to use[1]. Also, the environmental controls have to be more precise. The artist colours I use are, I suspect, more lightfast and longer lasting, and, in any case, much, much more forgiving in use. The only downside is the length of time to dry.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    [1] For me, an expensive mistake. Want commercial ink? I have (about) 1 litre each of Marabu black, white, and ultramarine. I also have (about) 1 litre each of Marabu thinner and Marabu heat activated hardener. I also have about 5 litres of Marabu cleaning solvent. It is old and I don't have any idea of its self life, but I would be happy if someone took it away. :) Total weight, probably 10kg. Certainly over £100 of stuff (if good).
    RLF

  44. #44
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webwatchmaker View Post
    Wristwatch dials I have made are normally 0.80 to 0.90mm thick. Pocket watch dials go up to 1.20mm. Including enamel dials.
    Never 0.40mm. That's too thin.

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
    Here's an old Longines dial.





    Best wishes,
    Bob

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier View Post
    Here's an old Longines dial.





    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Sorry about that. I was working on older watch dials.

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

  46. #46
    Craftsman
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    Bob,
    Thanks for the offer but I’ll have to pass :)
    My “inks” are heated to 820 degrees C to “set” them.
    I’ve not yet found a totally satisfactory way to add the numerals, but a thin deposit is probably not going to work.
    This 3 on a 30mm dia dial was about 0.1 to 0.2mm tall before firing:



    Some others on the dial (thinner I think) faded out.

    Dave

  47. #47
    Thomas Reid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave S View Post
    Bob,
    Thanks for the offer but I’ll have to pass :)
    My “inks” are heated to 820 degrees C to “set” them.
    I’ve not yet found a totally satisfactory way to add the numerals, but a thin deposit is probably not going to work.
    This 3 on a 30mm dia dial was about 0.1 to 0.2mm tall before firing:



    Some others on the dial (thinner I think) faded out.

    Dave
    That looks pretty good, I think. If you are using dry enamel powder, have you thought about using screen printing? I don't know the particle size of the enamel, but you should be able to get a screen with the right sized gap. I think that the idea is to make the screen, place it on the dial, then brush the enamel through the screen.

    https://www.ganoksin.com/article/scr...g-dry-enamels/

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    PS Or what about an enamel holding agent? If you could get that printing on the base layer, you could then sprinkle the enamel powder on top.
    RLF
    Last edited by rfrazier; 18th April 2019 at 21:24.

  48. #48
    Craftsman
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    Hadn’t actually thought about using dry enamel for printing, will give that a go as well.

    I’m very much at the investigation / experiment stage.
    Will write it all up once I have something to share, there is a dearth of material about enamelling dials.

    Dave

  49. #49
    Master sish101's Avatar
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    An enjoyable read for a Friday morning coffee. Thanks.

  50. #50
    Thomas Reid
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    Second colour. Pretty close, but not quite there yet. A bit more work to do.



    Best wishes,
    Bob

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