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Thread: The Road Traffic Act - a salutory lesson

  1. #1
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    The Road Traffic Act - a salutory lesson

    Last summer I bought my son a scooter for his 21st birthday. He'd just passed his CBT, needed something to ride to work and back on, and absolutely loved being mobile. It pretty much changed his life, in fact.

    Fast forward to December, and the bike was stolen by some local scrotes. They seemingly rode it for a day or so and then proceeded to smash it up before dumping it. When it was found (dumped locally), most of the panels/fairings were destroyed and the ignition barrel had been torn out. All in all, it was in a sorry state, and given that it was only worth about £650 - and his insurance excess was £850 - I suggested to Sam that he see what he could get for it as a non-runner. Well, he then really surprised me by refusing to give up on it; he sourced some panels and a new ignition barrel, and with his mate's help slowly rebuilt it piece by piece. It's now a week or two from being a runner again... just needs to be popped into an auto-electrician and then needs it's first MOT (which hopefully will be a formality).

    Anyway, yesterday he received a letter from the DVLA, stating that the Motor Insurance Database showed the bike was uninsured on 13th March (a pretty random date!), and that he was being fined £100. The only way in which he could dispute the fine was by having proof of insurance on that date; a valid SORN from prior to the date; evidence that he hadn't been the keeper; or evidence that it had been stolen. Well, of course it had been stolen, but given that the police have a record of its recovery that one's a non-starter.

    I feel a bit guilty, as when I advised Sam that he may as well terminate his insurance (we knew it wouldn't be on the road for months) it didn't occur to me that - even though the bike has been garaged since and has been a non-runner anyway - he still needed at least third party cover to avoid falling foul of section 144 of the Road Traffic Act (which requires all vehicles to be insured unless the DVLA have been formally advised that they're off the road). Had I realised that I'd have told him to SORN it straight away, and there's no way he'd have understood about that himself having never owned a vehicle before. In any event, I'll be paying his fine and making sure that he now does the necessary.

    I'm obviously a bit miffed about it, but thought that it was a lesson that might benefit others who weren't aware of this requirement (remember, the bike has been in a garage, and unrideable, since its recovery). In fact, I think it's the consequence of a fairly recent amendment to the RTA.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 17th March 2019 at 16:53.

  2. #2
    Master RossC's Avatar
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    Thanks for this, Tony.

    Particularly pressing for the many of us that have classic cars garaged for the winter and might not get round to the SORN as quickly as the insurance runs out.

    Thankfully, my classic car insurance is cheap enough that it runs all year round, but that won’t be the same for everybody.

  3. #3
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    Helpful post, ta.

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    It’s easy to get caught out with the SORN rules, but the onus is on us (as vehicle owners) to be aware of the regulations. In a situation like this it does seem harsh, particularly when the bike was in no fit state to be used, but unfortunately these rules are applied with no flexbility.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Oh man.

    The reality is a vehicle needs either a SORN or insurance/tax and MOT if applicable otherwise this is the potential result.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  6. #6
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Oh man.

    The reality is a vehicle needs either a SORN or insurance/tax and MOT if applicable otherwise this is the potential result.
    I think you’d be ok without the MOT (not that you’d want to be without an MOT if your vehicle is on the road) but it’s easy to forget to SORN a vehicle.

  7. #7
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    I think you’d be ok without the MOT (not that you’d want to be without an MOT if your vehicle is on the road) but it’s easy to forget to SORN a vehicle.
    Indeed Dave - I meant SORN or everything.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  8. #8
    Grand Master gray's Avatar
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    It wouldn't have occurred to me that a moped in a garage would have needed SORN either. Not for a minute. I mentioned it to a few folks and they were surprised too. Useful to know
    Gray

  9. #9
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    The Road Traffic Act - a salutory lesson

    Typical ! There is a lesson for the poor lad I guess - sometimes it is worth contacting the powers that be and explaining the situation..?
    I have a bike in the garage that is out of road tax and not on a sorn either - it is inured but I am wondering what will happen when I go to tax it again once the weather improves (fair weather biker!)

    Edit - just re read the original post! It wasn’t sorn or insured. I had no idea this was a thing either and I am old enough to know better

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    Last edited by Mr G Imp; 17th March 2019 at 18:02.

  10. #10
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G Imp View Post
    Typical ! There is a lesson for the poor lad I guess - sometimes it is worth contacting the powers that be and explaining the situation..?
    I have a bike in the garage that is out of road tax and not on a sorn either - it is inured but I am wondering what will happen when I go to tax it again once the weather improves (fair weather biker!)

    Edit - just re read the original post! It wasn’t sorn or insured. I had no idea this was a thing either and I am old enough to know better

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    Here’s the relevant details from the gov.uk website.

    https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

  11. #11
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    We really should not be surprised as whatever the government say, the continuous insurance rules were designed to bring in revenue by way of fines. So many get caught out, and now no tax disc is required I suspect that too has helped swell the coffers.

    That said, I think the circumstances described by th op would have caught out most of us.

  12. #12
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G Imp View Post
    Typical ! There is a lesson for the poor lad I guess - sometimes it is worth contacting the powers that be and explaining the situation..?
    I have a bike in the garage that is out of road tax and not on a sorn either - it is inured but I am wondering what will happen when I go to tax it again once the weather improves (fair weather biker!)

    Edit - just re read the original post! It wasn’t sorn or insured. I had no idea this was a thing either and I am old enough to know better

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    I didn't realise it had to be insured if not on a sorn. My bike is insured all year round although I only ride in the summer (I know, I know, fair weather biker!) but it was luck more than judgement tbh.
    It's just democracy.

  13. #13
    Good on him for fixing his bike up. The boy will (continue to) do well

  14. #14
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    Might be worth a call, you never know until you have.

    Best of luck getting the scooter back together, he’s showing something which most youngsters and I include my kids in this, drive and determination.

  15. #15
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    That's harsh, but I suppose they need to cast the net wide to catch the genuine offenders. Unfortunately, it catches the innocent small fry at the same time.

    Fair play to him for persisting with the repairs. I'm sure many would have chucked it in. Good luck on the MOT

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G Imp View Post
    Typical ! There is a lesson for the poor lad I guess - sometimes it is worth contacting the powers that be and explaining the situation..?
    I have a bike in the garage that is out of road tax and not on a sorn either - it is inured but I am wondering what will happen when I go to tax it again once the weather improves (fair weather biker!)

    Edit - just re read the original post! It wasn’t sorn or insured. I had no idea this was a thing either and I am old enough to know better

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    You need to get that bike SORN asap otherwise you could be fined for not taxing it. Once it's SORN, you can just retax when you need to.

  17. #17
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing that, it's very useful to know and not a potential issue I would have considered.
    I expect that he's learned a few new skills along the way and I hope that you both get something positive from what started off as an unpleasant experience. Hope it's back on the road soon.

  18. #18
    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Thank you for sharing that. I think you may have just saved me some money for a 'similar' issue on a recently purchase vehicle which is now SORN.

  19. #19
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Happy that it’s been useful information, even if it’s come at a cost to moi

    Sam has certainly impressed me with his fortitude on this occasion (and thanks for the kind words in this respect), but I’d be lying if I told you it was a characteristic for which he’s widely known! Maybe this challenge will be a milestone in his personal development

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    You need to get that bike SORN asap otherwise you could be fined for not taxing it. Once it's SORN, you can just retax when you need to.
    Definitely...I have been meaning to do this, it’s not been taxed for a while now...funny the things you pick up on watch forums - bless you !


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  21. #21
    From experience I know how obsessive an attachment young men can develop towards their motorised transport, particularly the first...the hours and money spent keeping wrecks on the road


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  22. #22
    I had my car SORN for just over a year, and had to pull it into the road for some driveway and garage repairs.
    Sheer bad luck, but got it clamped by DVLA (or their contract sharks anyway), and not only had to tax it and pay release fee, but also got stung a few weeks later with a fine equivalent to 2 years back tax, as a result of not complying to SORN rules.

    I politely disputed it and said I could provide evidence that it was off the road (I had photos of it in bits at various times) but they said I’d have to take it up in court - and I had enough stress in my life at that moment, so just coughed up the £700


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  23. #23
    Master
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    Really useful information, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

    It's so easy to get caught out, entirely innocently, but ignorance is no defence...
    especially in this money grabbing day and age.

    I've got 2 motorbikes currently SORNed and will be getting them MOT'd and back on the road soon.
    I'm struggling to work out how...

    I can insure them no problem, I can ride them to an MOT station to get MOT'd, but I can't tax them without a valid MOT.

    So I can only think that I would have to hire a van to transport them to the MOT garage?
    or ride them with no tax and tax them as soon as they pass?

  24. #24
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    The Road Traffic Act - a salutory lesson

    You’re allowed to ride an untaxed an in MOT’d bike to the testing station and back again as long as it’s insured and you’ve booked the MOT.

    The only exception is if the tester declares it dangerous and then you’re not allowed to ride it home.

    Once it’s passed it’s MOT, the act of taxing it ends the SORN automatically.

    Edit: there’s no requirement for you to tax the vehicle after the MOT i believe, but then there’d be no point getting the MOT.
    Last edited by Dave+63; 21st March 2019 at 20:22.

  25. #25
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    You’re allowed to ride an untaxed an in MOT’d bike to the testing station and back again as long as it’s insured and you’ve booked the MOT.

    The only exception is if the tester declares it dangerous and then you’re not allowed to ride it home.

    Once it’s passed it’s MOT, the act of taxing it ends the SORN automatically.

    Edit: there’s no requirement for you to tax the vehicle after the MOT i believe, but then there’d be no point getting the MOT.
    You're absolutely right...

    https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

    Cheers for that.

    Hopefully it will be useful info for other TZers

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    You’re allowed to ride an untaxed an in MOT’d bike to the testing station and back again as long as it’s insured and you’ve booked the MOT.
    I'd check that any insurance is valid in these circumstances (no MOT).

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    You need to get that bike SORN asap otherwise you could be fined for not taxing it. Once it's SORN, you can just retax when you need to.
    I taxed the bike a couple of weeks ago online - there was a warning regarding the gap where the vehicle wasn’t taxed or sorn. But I haven’t heard anything yet. Fingers crossed...Still haven’t been out for a ride though!


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  28. #28
    Really appreciate the heads up over this.

  29. #29
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heuerfan View Post
    Really appreciate the heads up over this.
    Happy it was of help!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Oh man.

    The reality is a vehicle needs either a SORN or insurance/tax and MOT if applicable otherwise this is the potential result.
    Yep, that's it in a nutshell. I thought it was common knowledge, evidently not.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobboMedic View Post
    It's so easy to get caught out, entirely innocently, but ignorance is no defence...
    especially in this money grabbing day and age.
    The ten or more first priorities of the State are to pertain itself. Tax is the way to fund it all. This has never ever been ány different.
    The only change is the progressingly tight network controlling the trying to be law abiding citizens.

    Just wait for cash to be made illegal and all cars mandatory fitted with gps. Cameras are omniprensent and the State is already empowered to remotely access the vehicle management system.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  32. #32
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Cameras are omniprensent and the State is already empowered to remotely access the vehicle management system.
    Partially alleviated by having a vehicle without an accessible management system.


    Can’t legally do too much about the cameras though!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Partially alleviated by having a vehicle without an accessible management system.

    Can’t legally do too much about the cameras though!
    And since just about all your life is hooked up to the grid the number recognition has you in the net anyway.

    It really is a pisser as the nót trying to be law abiding have it easy, easier than ever in fact because there are less physical checks, to slip through the mazes unless they are specífically targeted.

    This illustrates that the State is foremostly bothered with exploiting the masses.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  34. #34
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    I’m beginning to think that David Icke actually may not be as mad as a box of frogs, and that in itself is terrify.

  35. #35
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    I’m beginning to think that David Icke actually may not be as mad as a box of frogs, and that in itself is terrify.
    He has a point (Petrus, not Icke!) though. Speed cameras take away the need to employ humans and give them cars to drive. I can't even remember the last time I saw a marked police car on a motorway. What they don't see though are the people driving dangerously. I'd say about half the time I'm driving through a 30 or 40 zone at the speed limit I'm being tailgated by someone who, if I had to brake suddenly, wouldn't be able to stop in time.

    I wonder how many people are aware of the cameras now pointing down at most box junctions in Greater London? Bus lane cameras, parking fines, those lovely £35 fines you get for forgetting to pay your Dartford Crossing charge, fines for staying more than two hours in lots of motorway service stations and shop car parks - the list goes on.
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    He has a point (Petrus, not Icke!) though. Speed cameras take away the need to employ humans and give them cars to drive. I can't even remember the last time I saw a marked police car on a motorway. What they don't see though are the people driving dangerously. I'd say about half the time I'm driving through a 30 or 40 zone at the speed limit I'm being tailgated by someone who, if I had to brake suddenly, wouldn't be able to stop in time.

    I wonder how many people are aware of the cameras now pointing down at most box junctions in Greater London? Bus lane cameras, parking fines, those lovely £35 fines you get for forgetting to pay your Dartford Crossing charge, fines for staying more than two hours in lots of motorway service stations and shop car parks - the list goes on.
    An example from Spain and that is not on the forefront of this.
    Apart from speeding and other driving infractions, these cameras RECOGNISE half a dozen or so behavioral infractions INSIDE the vehicle, such as not wearing the safetbelt, using the mobile, eating etc. incl. the c. company having the feet on the dash and no doubt her fluffing you too.
    Oh and they can be coupled to facial recognition too.
    Big Brother is driving with you in the car....



    p.s. the numbers and locations are not up to date. Because of húge financial success, it has been doubled since.
    That is thé big thing with this vigilance; it is híghly profitabñle and the State does not respect it´s laws concerning privacy.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 25th April 2019 at 13:42.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  37. #37
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    Below is a low resolution!! caption of a part of the frame!!! these cameras register.
    Two-thirds of these cameras watch sécundairy roads.
    Mind; some 500 by now and that is not counting Basque country nor Cataluña.
    The UK has a wáy denser system and at least it is widely publicated here.

    For your safety and security. Yeah.... who actually believes thát?! Well, apart from the Oakies.



    These cameras also register the MoT inspection validity and the ECO sticker. No sticker in a regluated zone = fine, even if the car is clean enough.

    The cameras were implemented with the sales blurp ´safety belt cameras´ and all explanatory info only accentuating this element and it´s saftey aspect. Oh and that this infractoon is 200 € + 3 points.
    Not all other invasions of privacy as there is no privacy inside a car in the public space....
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 25th April 2019 at 14:06.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  38. #38
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    You can see how people become conspiracy theorists.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    An example from Spain and that is not on the forefront of this.
    Apart from speeding and other driving infractions, these cameras RECOGNISE half a dozen or so behavioral infractions INSIDE the vehicle, such as not wearing the safetbelt, using the mobile, eating etc. incl. the c. company having the feet on the dash and no doubt her fluffing you too.
    Yes, feet on dash quite common over there. Always wondered what would happen in an accident.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    You can see how people become conspiracy theorists.
    No need for that: The State cán see not only those people ... Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide; they will ´only´ fine you for ...euhmmmm... well, even for picking your nose. Oh wait, even blówing your nose as when you grab a tissue, you are not paying attention.
    Mind, you are allowed to smoke; smoking brings in lots of revenue. Wait, by fining its in car maintenance, your nose too is a source of revenue!
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Yes, feet on dash quite common over there. Always wondered what would happen in an accident.
    Nothing really. As long as one wears seat belt. The head and torso are heavy enough to slam forward, not slide underneath the belt.
    If the car is fitted with airbags, well, yes, thóse can be dangerous which is why they cannot be made mandatory.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Nothing really. As long as one wears seat belt. The head and torso are heavy enough to slam forward, not slide underneath the belt.
    If the car is fitted with airbags, well, yes, thóse can be dangerous which is why they cannot be made mandatory.
    Thought legs might be forced into torso with something breaking.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Thought legs might be forced into torso with something breaking.
    Only if they would have been trapped with somethong breaking otherwise.
    Ah, unless airbag; yes thóse will complicate things.

    Funny no? That feet on the dash needs be prohibited because of airbags being not airbags but explosive bags....
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Only if they would have been trapped with somethong breaking otherwise.
    Ah, unless airbag; yes thóse will complicate things.

    Funny no? That feet on the dash needs be prohibited because of airbags being not airbags but explosive bags....
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...oard-car-crash

  45. #45
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    No need for that: The State cán see not only those people ... Nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide; they will ´only´ fine you for ...euhmmmm... well, even for picking your nose. Oh wait, even blówing your nose as when you grab a tissue, you are not paying attention.
    Mind, you are allowed to smoke; smoking brings in lots of revenue. Wait, by fining its in car maintenance, your nose too is a source of revenue!
    “The best way to stop a prisoner from escaping is to make sure he never knows he’s in prison” (Dostoevski)

  46. #46
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    Lesson being; switch off the airbag. Better still allow us the choices of having them in or not. Heck, the things kill a surprising amount of humans so we shoúld have the choice. But no, airbags add to the price of a car = more revenue in tax ánd it´s a potential MoT fail = .... you get it. Etcetera.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  47. #47
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Yes, feet on dash quite common over there. Always wondered what would happen in an accident.
    Going off 32 years of dealing with this sort of thing, you'd greatly increase your chance of serious injury.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    Going off 32 years of dealing with this sort of thing, you'd greatly increase your chance of serious injury.
    ´Luckily´ our world is rapidly filled by cameras automatically recognising this infraction.
    Next the passenger reaching back towards the kids as that is greatly increasing ...
    We´ve gone lóng past the nanny-state phase.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

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