closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 151 to 196 of 196

Thread: Boeing 737 Max ?

  1. #151
    Grand Master VDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Whitehole
    Posts
    18,986
    So it's begun..

    Russian company taking Boeing to court in first lawsuit over 737 MAX planes

    A Russian aircraft leasing company has filed a lawsuit in Chicago against Boeing to cancel its purchase of the grounded 737 MAX planes in the first court case of its kind after two deadly air crashes involving the planes.
    Avia Capital Services is seeking to terminate a contract for the purchase of 35 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft over safety concerns, according to a report by Financial Times. The company, a subsidiary of Russian state conglomerate Rostec, claims the two deadly crashes of 737 MAX that resulted in the deaths of 346 people earlier this year were the result of “negligent actions and decisions of Boeing” in both designing a plane that was “defective” and “withholding critical information” from the US aviation safety regulator during certification.
    Zee LIИKY
    Fas est ab hoste doceri

  2. #152
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    NTSB Issues 7 Safety Recommendations to FAA and Safety Recommendation Report

    Executive Summary

    ​The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is providing the following information to urge the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to take action on the safety recommendations in this report. They are derived from our participation in the ongoing investigations of two fatal accidents under the provisions of Annex 13 of the International Civil Aviation Organization. As the accident investigation authority for the state of design and manufacture of the airplane in these accidents, the NTSB has been examining the US design certification process used to approve the original design of the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) on the Boeing Company (Boeing) 737MAX. We note that, since the PT Lion Mentari Airlines (Lion Air) accident on October 29, 2018, Boeing has developed an MCAS software update to provide additional layers of protection and is working on updated procedures and training. However, we are concerned that the process used to evaluate the original design needs improvement because that process is still in use to certify current and future aircraft and system designs.

    The full Aviation Safety Recommendation Report 19-01 is available as a PDF.

  3. #153
    Grand Master VDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Whitehole
    Posts
    18,986
    ICYMI

    Morocco’s national carrier Royal Air Maroc has suspended a deal to purchase two more Boeing 737 MAX planes after the same model of aircraft crashed in Ethiopia, a source from the airline told Reuters on Thursday.


    LINK

    Boeing Co (BA.N) faced additional uncertainty on Wednesday over future production rates for its 787 Dreamliner after Russian carrier Aeroflot (AFLT.MM) formally canceled an order for 22 aircraft valued at about $5.5 billion at list prices.


    LINK
    Last edited by VDG; 10th October 2019 at 12:26.
    Fas est ab hoste doceri

  4. #154
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    870
    Serves Boeing right. No sympathy from me.

  5. #155
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    swansea uk
    Posts
    710
    Doesn't do anything to encourage me to fly, I must be the last sod in the UK never to have stepped foot on any aircraft lol........

  6. #156
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    FAA failed to properly review 737 MAX

    A panel of international air safety regulators on Friday harshly criticized the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) review of a safety system on Boeing’s (BA.N) 737 MAX airliner later tied to two crashes that killed all 346 people aboard.

    The Joint Authorities Technical Review (JATR) was commissioned by the FAA in April to look into the agency’s oversight and approval of the so-called MCAS anti-stall system.

    The report also faulted Boeing for assumptions it made in designing the airplane and found areas where Boeing could improve processes.

    “The JATR team found that the MCAS was not evaluated as a complete and integrated function in the certification documents that were submitted to the FAA,” the 69-page series of findings and recommendations said.

    “The lack of a unified top-down development and evaluation of the system function and its safety analyses, combined with the extensive and fragmented documentation, made it difficult to assess whether compliance was fully demonstrated.”...


    Edit JATR report...pdf link.
    Last edited by PickleB; 11th October 2019 at 22:01.

  7. #157
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    Boeing 2016 internal messages suggest employees may have misled FAA

    Boeing Co turned over instant messages from 2016 between two employees that suggest the airplane maker may have misled the Federal Aviation Administration about a key safety system on the grounded 737 MAX, sources briefed on the matter said.

    The FAA confirmed Friday that Boeing told it a day earlier about internal messages it had discovered “some months ago” that characterize “certain communications with the FAA during the original certification of the 737 MAX in 2016.”

    The FAA said it found the messages “concerning” and “is reviewing this information to determine what action is appropriate.” It prompted a letter from FAA Administrator Steve Dickson to Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg demanding an “immediate” explanation for the delay in turning over the documents.

    Sources told Reuters the Boeing internal messages raised questions about the performance of the so-called MCAS anti-stall system that has been tied to the two fatal crashes in five months.

    The messages are between the MAX’s then-chief technical pilot and another Boeing pilot, the sources said, and raised questions about the MCAS’s performance in the simulator. The pilot has since left Boeing...

  8. #158
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Somerset (U.k )
    Posts
    10,301
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Doesn't do anything to encourage me to fly, I must be the last sod in the UK never to have stepped foot on any aircraft lol........
    Make that 2 of us.

    I turned 50 last week and despite working at Heathrow for 4 years and Bristol Airport for 2 years I’ve not come close to flying.
    Cheers,

    Ben



    ..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers


    " an extravagance is anything you buy that is of no earthly use to your wife "

  9. #159
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    12,234
    The sad thing is people have forgotten all about 346 people who died due to this, it's almost forgotten in the discussion now, it really does ram it home to think that those 346 people so far are worth $50 million, an absolute pittance and really shows the priority to the US regulators, Boeing et al.

  10. #160
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    Boeing Progress on 737 MAX Safe Return to Service

    CHICAGO, Oct. 22, 2019—Boeing has made significant progress over the past several months in support of safely returning the 737 MAX to service as the company continues to work with the FAA and other global regulators on the process laid out for certifying the 737 MAX software and related training updates. The company has also made significant governance and operational changes to further sharpen its focus.

    ...


    According to the BBC: Boeing expects 737 Max to fly again by New Year.

  11. #161
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    870
    Should be some cheap fares on offer to entice customers when this excuse for a plane returns to service. Not that I’ll be tempted for a few years.....

  12. #162
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    High Wycombe UK
    Posts
    248

  13. #163
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Saundersfoot, UK
    Posts
    478
    Quote Originally Posted by redkite View Post
    Exceptionally well written piece. You should not have to be a flying ‘ace’ to overcome shocking design. The 737 is/was designed to be flown by a wide variety of pilots. I wonder how many flew the accident profile in the simulator and managed to avoid catastrophe...without early selection due to prior knowledge.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #164
    I've read page after page on this elsewhere and the most significant thing I've read is:

    "Why didn't the condition 'AoA Disagree' inhibit MCAS?"

  15. #165
    Craftsman canuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by catch21 View Post
    I've read page after page on this elsewhere and the most significant thing I've read is:

    "Why didn't the condition 'AoA Disagree' inhibit MCAS?"
    Poor programming and lack of adequate testing most likely.

  16. #166
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Saundersfoot, UK
    Posts
    478
    Quote Originally Posted by canuck View Post
    Poor programming and lack of adequate testing most likely.
    Spot on.....and dodgy Certification in my view.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #167
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North and South.
    Posts
    21,053
    BBC News - Qantas grounds Boeing 737 plane due to 'cracking'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-50244699
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  18. #168
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Brussel land.
    Posts
    14,548
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Doesn't do anything to encourage me to fly, I must be the last sod in the UK never to have stepped foot on any aircraft lol........
    Quote Originally Posted by ben4watches View Post
    Make that 2 of us.

    I turned 50 last week and despite working at Heathrow for 4 years and Bristol Airport for 2 years I’ve not come close to flying.
    We used to fly abroad a lot, but after getting the previous dog started holidaying in the U.K. Although we do travel to the continent quite a lot now, I don’t miss flying at all.
    It's just democracy.

  19. #169
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    BBC link

    Boeing will temporarily halt production of its troubled 737 Max airliner in January, the manufacturer said.

    Production of the jet had continued despite the model being grounded for nine months after two deadly crashes.

    ...

    The manufacturer said in a statement that it had 400 737 Max aircraft in storage. It said it planned for affected employees to "continue 737-related work, or be temporarily assigned to other teams".

  20. #170
    Master Skier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Cheltenham, UK
    Posts
    2,054
    This will be catastrophic for the supply chain but Boeing has brought this upon itself and needs to learn from its very poor decisions and practices. That said, there's only so much desert space to park the aircraft coming off the production line. Boeing already owes billions to suppliers and these suppliers have little chance of being paid as Boeing is so powerful that it simply denies the payments and legal action for the suppliers would be extremely protracted, expensive and probably preclude future business.

  21. #171
    Grand Master markrlondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    22,292
    Blog Entries
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    400 737 Max aircraft in storage
    That's rather a lot of apparently unsold stock.

  22. #172
    Master petethegeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Worcestershire
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    That's rather a lot of apparently unsold stock.
    Coming soon to an outlet store near you. (Or even sales corner, possibly.)

  23. #173
    Grand Master andrewcregan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Highlands, Scotland
    Posts
    11,145
    Quote Originally Posted by markrlondon View Post
    That's rather a lot of apparently unsold stock.
    I believe that they are all sold (subject to future fixes!)
    There are some interesting photos online, of hundreds lined up on a couple of Washington (State) airfields.

  24. #174
    Master petethegeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Worcestershire
    Posts
    1,872
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewcregan View Post
    I believe that they are all sold (subject to future fixes!)
    And paid for?

  25. #175
    Grand Master andrewcregan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Highlands, Scotland
    Posts
    11,145
    Quote Originally Posted by petethegeek View Post
    And paid for?

    I would anticipate that the full and final payment would be upon delivery?
    The ‘late delivery’ penalties to Boeing will surely be incredible!

  26. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete D View Post
    Spot on.....and dodgy Certification in my view.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by canuck View Post
    Poor programming and lack of adequate testing most likely.
    Those are contributory factors certainly, but we would need to go back to the requirements to determine whether that is the case. Coding will only be to the defined specification, which links back to requirements; testing, likewise.
    The regulator (FAA) will be looking to find all of the holes in the Swiss cheese. Foreign (sic) regulatory bodies will be doing the same when it comes to certifying the aircraft and probably including the FAA in their Swiss cheese model.

    The halting of production is a significant development, in that it indicates that Boeing are still some way away from a design that can be certified.

  27. #177
    Grand Master andrewcregan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Highlands, Scotland
    Posts
    11,145
    A tiny fraction of the Max variants await their future........


  28. #178
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewcregan View Post
    I believe that they are all sold (subject to future fixes!)
    There are some interesting photos online, of hundreds lined up on a couple of Washington (State) airfields.
    See this link for:

    HOW WILL THE 737 MAX PRODUCTION FREEZE IMPACT AIRLINES?

    The immediate impact is likely to be muted because once the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) approves the 737 MAX to resume flying, airlines’ first priority is to prepare the 737 MAX jets already in their fleets to return to service.

    Then they will look to take delivery of the 400 planes that have been produced since the grounding.

    Analysts estimate Boeing has the ability to deliver a maximum of 70 of the planes to customers per month, meaning getting through that backlog would take nearly six months, even if it kept the pause on production for that entire period.

    FAA approval to resume flying is not likely until at least February and could be delayed until March, U.S. officials have told Reuters.

    Other global regulators, including in Europe and China, have indicated they could take even longer to approve the plane’s return.


    ...and more.

    Wiki tells us that 387 have already been delivered. So that's a total of about 800 currently in storage around the USA...and elsewhere?

  29. #179
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    West Yorkshire
    Posts
    552
    From March this year, and therefore probably a bit out of date, but interesting nonetheless: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/w...ax-are-stored/

    Edit: The blog post was March, but the stats were updated in August.
    Last edited by StackH; 17th December 2019 at 16:06.

  30. #180
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Brussel land.
    Posts
    14,548
    To be honest, I was never keen on flying much when we used fly on holidays a lot. Having seen the circus going on concerning these plane crashes, and the somewhat lacking response from Boeing and the authorities/regulatory bodies concerned I wouldn't fly unless I really had to. And I know all the sensible arguments concerning the 'safest form of transport' and 'millions of miles flown every year' but that doesn't count for much when something like this goes wrong.
    It's just democracy.

  31. #181
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    More internal messages have been released...link. Including:

    ...One unnamed employee wrote in an exchange of instant messages in April 2017: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."

    The documents appear to show that Boeing rejected training pilots on simulators, which would have led to higher costs for the firm.

    On Tuesday this week, Boeing reversed its position by recommending 737 Max simulator training for all pilots.

    Another message dating from November 2015 appears to show that the company lobbied against the aviation regulator's calls for a certain aspect of simulator training.

    "We are going to push back very hard on this and will likely need support at the highest levels when it comes time for the final negotiation," the message said.

    The documents also appear to show problems with the simulators being discussed.

    In February 2018, a Boeing worker asked a colleague: "Would you put your family on a Max simulator-trained aircraft? I wouldn't."

    "No," came the reply...

  32. #182
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    USA Today on the same topic:

    ...Repeatedly, Boeing tried to dissuade airlines from requiring training for pilots in advanced flight simulators before they flew the new jet, a move that would have vastly added to the manufacturer's costs.

    Some of the message exchanges between Boeing employees allude to deceiving regulators or others. One employee talked about "jedi mind tricks" — a "Star Wars" reference — that would hopefully work on regulators.

    ...

    The chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which received and reviewed the documents as part of a probe into the crashes that killed 346, called the emails "incredibly damning." ...

  33. #183
    Seems that the quality control problems extend beyond the software and sensors; now foreign bodies in the fuel tanks. Link

  34. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by jools View Post
    Seems that the quality control problems extend beyond the software and sensors; now foreign bodies in the fuel tanks. Link
    Stowaways?

  35. #185
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by jools View Post
    Seems that the quality control problems extend beyond the software and sensors; now foreign bodies in the fuel tanks. Link
    And it's not just the 737 where they have difficulties...Boeing managers admit problems

    Two software errors detected after launch of a Boeing Starliner crew ship during an unpiloted test flight last December, one of which prevented a planned docking with the International Space Station, could have led to catastrophic failures had they not been caught and corrected in time, NASA said Friday.

    An independent review board “found the two critical software defects were not detected ahead of flight despite multiple safeguards,” according to an agency statement. “Ground intervention prevented loss of vehicle in both cases.”...

  36. #186
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Lëtzebuerg
    Posts
    19,452
    Quote Originally Posted by jools View Post
    Seems that the quality control problems extend beyond the software and sensors; now foreign bodies in the fuel tanks. Link
    Debris found in 35 out of 50 grounded 737 MAX planes awaiting delivery. Unbelievable.

    WSJ article

  37. #187
    Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Debris found in 35 out of 50 grounded 737 MAX planes awaiting delivery. Unbelievable.

    WSJ article
    When I read 'debris' I didn't have tools in mind!

  38. #188
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    NW London
    Posts
    4,174
    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    When I read 'debris' I didn't have tools in mind!
    I just can’t believe what I’ve read, seems to be a company who has seriously lost its way and where profits are top priority. Wonder what other marvels will come out?

  39. #189
    Master Christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6,153
    The 73Max saga is a real shame. Boeing used to make some lovely aircraft. The 777 is an absolute beast and it’s redundancy is genius...for example you can lose about 3/4 of your hydraulic systems and have a perfectly flyable aircraft. I’d choose old school Boeing over airbus any day.

  40. #190
    Master reggie747's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    The Mersey Riviera
    Posts
    4,989
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    for example you can lose about 3/4 of your hydraulic systems and have a perfectly flyable aircraft.
    Makes you wonder why there is 100% of useable hydraulics there in the first place ?

  41. #191
    Master Christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6,153
    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    Makes you wonder why there is 100% of useable hydraulics there in the first place ?
    Because landing with alternate brakes, not having an AP or stab, spending 5 minutes getting your flaps down and not being able to get the gear back up on a go around up isn’t ideal for normal day-to-day ops. But I suspect you already knew that.
    Last edited by Christian; 22nd February 2020 at 18:08.

  42. #192
    Master reggie747's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    The Mersey Riviera
    Posts
    4,989
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Because landing with alternate brakes, not having an AP or stab, spending 5 minutes getting your flaps down and not being able to get the gear back up on a go around up isn’t ideal for normal day-to-day ops. But I suspect you already knew that.
    Of course I did.......
    So, essentially not a perfectly flyable aircraft then (but can be flown in a push)

    But I do agree, it's an otherwise shame for essentially the biggest or at least best known manufacturer to be having such massive problems.

  43. #193
    Master Christian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6,153
    The 73Max saga is a real shame. Boeing used to make some lovely aircraft. The 777 is an absolute beast and it’s redundancy is genius...for example you can lose about 3/4 of your hydraulic systems and have an aircraft with handling qualities not dissimilar to a 707. I’d choose old school Boeing over airbus any day.

  44. #194
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    The Far East (of England)
    Posts
    2,086
    Quote Originally Posted by hafle View Post
    When I read 'debris' I didn't have tools in mind!
    I remember stories of MG Rover employees emptying pockets of spare nuts, bolts and screws into the door and body panels after the shutdowns were notified. A rattle or two at worst but FOD in the fuel tanks of aircraft is unbelievable!

  45. #195
    Grand Master PickleB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    M25 J6 UK
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    And it's not just the 737 where they have difficulties...Boeing managers admit problems

    Two software errors detected after launch of a Boeing Starliner crew ship during an unpiloted test flight last December, one of which prevented a planned docking with the International Space Station, could have led to catastrophic failures had they not been caught and corrected in time, NASA said Friday.

    An independent review board “found the two critical software defects were not detected ahead of flight despite multiple safeguards,” according to an agency statement. “Ground intervention prevented loss of vehicle in both cases.”...
    WaPo link

    ...In the most comprehensive comments to date on what went wrong during Boeing’s test mission — an autonomous flight without astronauts — to the International Space Station, John Mulholland, the manager of Boeing’s Starliner program, said the company had cut short a key test of the craft’s software, failed to test a critical system against crucial hardware, and instead used a flawed computer system to conduct the test.

    It was a stunning admission from the world’s largest aerospace company, which has been beset with questions about the software aboard its 737 Max aircraft. That software is being blamed for two fatal crashes that killed 346 people and led to the global grounding of the aircraft nearly a year ago...

  46. #196
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    90
    It really reads like there are some serious systemic issues at Boeing. A culture focusing on a single end result and not considering the unintended consequences of their actions. Dangerous times...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information