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Thread: Boeing 737 Max ?

  1. #101
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jools View Post
    Apparently Boeing knew about the problem earlier than they have previously admitted, according to the Beeb. Referring to the article's mention of the "Angle of Attack (AOA) Disagree alert" I must say this passage puzzles me:



    Are they suggesting that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand was doing? Whatever, it's looking pretty bad for Boeing.
    Sounds to me like a group of thinking heads have got together and come up with that as possibly the best maybe believable?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    I’ve flown plenty of aircraft but never a commercial airline, is there not a way to deactivate the auto elements and take pure manual control of these aircraft?

    In an emergency surely the primary concern of the crew is to fly the aircraft? That is obviously difficult if you’re fighting against the aircraft itself which is also trying to ‘fly’ the aircraft!
    You may find your answer in one of these two videos:



    ...this one is longer, more 'newsy' and less technical:


  3. #103
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    And then from 2011 there is Problems with Boeing 737 next generation...YouTube link.

  4. #104
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    BBC link to one of their feature articles...What went wrong...?.

  5. #105
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    I was on one of these last week - delivery miles only and awaiting seats and IFE to be fitted. Very unique looking plane.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by gavsw20 View Post
    I was on one of these last week - delivery miles only and awaiting seats and IFE to be fitted. Very unique looking plane.
    Aren’t they all?

  7. #107
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  8. #108
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    American Airlines Pilots Appeal to Boeing CEO for Max Simulator Time

    The union for American Airlines Group Inc. pilots is redoubling its push for time in a Boeing Co. 737 Max simulator, saying aviators should be given access before the grounded plane returns to service.

    Dan Carey, a veteran American pilot and head of the Allied Pilots Association, appealed to Boeing Chief Executive Officer Dennis Muilenburg a day after testifying before a Congressional subcommittee looking into two deadly crashes of the model. The APA has said that an earlier request for simulator time, which union officials made to Boeing through American, was rejected...



    737 Max 'Should Never Have Been Approved'

    One of the nation's best known airline pilots is speaking out on the problems with Boeing's 737 Max jetliner. Retired Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told a congressional subcommittee Wednesday that an automated flight control system on the 737 Max "was fatally flawed and should never have been approved."

    Sullenberger, who safely landed a damaged US Airways jet on the Hudson River in New York in 2009 after a bird strike disabled the engines, says he understands how the pilots of two 737 Max planes that recently crashed would have been confused as they struggled to maintain control of the aircraft, as an automated system erroneously began forcing the planes into nosedives.

    "I can tell you firsthand that the startle factor is real and it's huge. It absolutely interferes with one's ability to quickly analyze the crisis and take corrective action," he said...

  9. #109
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    Yes, my direct flight from London to St. John’s in August has gone tits up as Air Canada used this sodding plane on that route. Now redirected via Toronto doubling the journey time. Could be worse though........

  10. #110
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    FAA Updates on Boeing 737 MAX

    6/26/2019 4:45 p.m. Update

    FAA Statement

    The FAA is following a thorough process, not a prescribed timeline, for returning the Boeing 737 Max to passenger service. The FAA will lift the aircraft’s prohibition order when we deem it is safe to do so. We continue to evaluate Boeing’s software modification to the MCAS and we are still developing necessary training requirements. We also are responding to recommendations received from the Technical Advisory Board (TAB). The TAB is an independent review panel we have asked to review our work regarding 737 Max return to service.

    On the most recent issue, the FAA’s process is designed to discover and highlight potential risks. The FAA recently found a potential risk that Boeing must mitigate.

  11. #111

    Boeing 737 Max ?

    I work in the oil and gas industry and we deal with risk on a huge scale.

    After all, an offshore platform with 100+ personnel sits upon, and is directly connected to a hydrocarbon reservoir connected to the platform by well tubing. The risk is that there is the potential to cause 100+ fatalities should something go horribly wrong.

    With significant risk, comes significant layers of protection.

    It beggars belief that the Boeing risk processes allowed single instrumented system failure to cause the death of 100+ people.

    Instrumentation does go wrong, and as a minimum, there should have been voting instrumentation protective systems, e.g. 2 out of 3, to ensure the protection systems still work should one instrument fail.

    Furthermore, given the criticality of this instrumentation, and the risk associated with it, this instrumentation should have been on a very high testing frequency.

    The final thing that further beggars belief is that the pilot has responsibility for the aircraft, and he/she is an essential layer of protection. But, essentially Boeing removed this layer of protection, putting faith in a single instrumented system.

    Boeing ‘processes’ have failed here. I imagine there’ll be some sizeable law suits to come.

  12. #112
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    I totally agree, we HAZOPed quite a few processes for our meagre pyrolysis plant and we can to the conclusion that quorate monitoring (3/3 or 2/3 agreement on monitors for critical processes) was vital, the whole plant reverted to a shut down if the voting failed.
    To read that there are two AOA indicators and that for each time you switched on the plane it swapped indicators beggars belief.
    I recall there was a famous crash (Copa Flight 201) where there were 2 ADI indicators, and the pilots, in error, switched to the wrong one when the two disagreed, and took readings from the faulty one alone. This allowed them to barrel roll the plane into a fatal dive, believing they were flying stright and true. Processes for determiing which of the indicators wwas faulty were massivley improved as a result.

    The system here is exactly the same, but is even worse for defeating the pilots. A fatal, automatic control action is taken by MCAS, based on a the reading from single instrument, one that can be faulty. In any critical process, this is a ridiculous condition to persist.

  13. #113
    Yes, yes and yes but also consider that Boeing did not disclose the existence of MCAS in any documentation or training. That, in itself, is completely inexcusable in my view. Had the pilots been aware of this system they could possibly have taken it into account in their early-doors assessment of the problem with which they were faced.

    Personally, I don't see Boeing surviving this.

  14. #114
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    ......................... and still it goes on :-
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48752932
    Even "Sully" has jumped in again, if you'll pardon the pun!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUMf-A_sB6U

  15. #115
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    I can only imagine Willy Walsh got a silly deal for IAG, buying planes that crash isn’t great for attracting customers.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Chalet View Post
    I can only imagine Willy Walsh got a silly deal for IAG, buying planes that crash isn’t great for attracting customers.
    Fire sale.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Fire sale.
    And if Boeing can't win in the courts...US court overturns punitive tariffs.

    Or play by the rules...EU and Airbus achieve major win against US.

    Try again...US proposes $4 billion in new tariffs on EU imports.

    See also this YouTube video (from 2016)...link.

  18. #118
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    A good review by an ex Airline Pilot

    https://www.pilotweb.aero/features/7...ysis-1-6127413

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by redkite View Post
    A good review by an ex Airline Pilot

    https://www.pilotweb.aero/features/7...ysis-1-6127413
    An excellent read. Thank you.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by redkite View Post
    A good review by an ex Airline Pilot

    https://www.pilotweb.aero/features/7...ysis-1-6127413
    Christ almighty!

  21. #121
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    Bloody hell, read the above and have to admit didn’t really understand some of it but the overriding concern of sticking plaster upon sticking plaster really sounds like a company focused in denial?

  22. #122
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    6 May 2019 Boeing Statement on AOA Disagree Alert:

    ...In 2017, within several months after beginning 737 MAX deliveries, engineers at Boeing identified that the 737 MAX display system software did not correctly meet the AOA Disagree alert requirements. The software delivered to Boeing linked the AOA Disagree alert to the AOA indicator, which is an optional feature on the MAX and the NG. Accordingly, the software activated the AOA Disagree alert only if an airline opted for the AOA indicator.

    When the discrepancy between the requirements and the software was identified, Boeing followed its standard process for determining the appropriate resolution of such issues. That review, which involved multiple company subject matter experts, determined that the absence of the AOA Disagree alert did not adversely impact airplane safety or operation. Accordingly, the review concluded, the existing functionality was acceptable until the alert and the indicator could be delinked in the next planned display system software update. Senior company leadership was not involved in the review and first became aware of this issue in the aftermath of the Lion Air accident...

  23. #123
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    Every thing I have read, and everything I know about consumer behaviour screams that this is endgame for the 737 Max.

    Unless Boeing realise this and fold their hand on this turd of a plane, it is endgame for them as well.

  24. #124
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    Let's not forget they are still making these things. 52 a month before April this year, and 42 a month thereafter. An none of them are being delivered or flown.
    (The fact that thery are still making these airframes on the same production line in Renton that they built for the first 737s in 1966 is beyond believable)

    It seems to me that Boeing is doubling down on a bad hand, and that they are effectively trying to get themselves into the "too big to fail" category.

    It's not looking pretty. Nor should it. They have behaved appallingly over this, especially considering that they have been touting the same old 737 design for 50 years, and the "tweaks" to make it more modern are the cause of the inherent instability when using the new engines, hence the MCAS etc etc. The whole story is awful.

    It may still kill them off.

    Dave

  25. #125
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    I think the whole thing is appalling and could well end in corporate manslaughter charges.
    The 737 will now have to be replaced, they have been working on a new design for some time but always opt for the tweaking of the 737 as its more cost effective.

  26. #126
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    I do too redkite and after BA bought recently committed to buy 200 of the things I decided to sell my BA miles and ditch them for good. Shite airline who are pretending to be a full-service carrier. Wonder how BA think they can manage customer aversion to flying on the Max.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48682123

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mondie View Post
    Wonder how BA think they can manage customer aversion to flying on the Max.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48682123
    We can only vote with our feet ............................ and thankfully the rest of our bodies, unlike the poor souls on those planes. RIP.

  28. #128
    On the pilots' forum there are very strong suspicions that Boeing have planted "experts" who have been steering the discussions away from Boeing malfeasance and towards pilot error and poor training. I suppose you have to ask yourself, with steering of the conversation like this, who would have an interest in doing it, and who might also have sufficient technical knowledge to appear genuine.

    I too think it's probably not just end-game for the 737-max but also end-game for Boeing.

    In the game of engineers vs accountants, the accountants won again.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by mondie View Post
    I do too redkite and after BA bought recently committed to buy 200 of the things I decided to sell my BA miles and ditch them for good. Shite airline who are pretending to be a full-service carrier. Wonder how BA think they can manage customer aversion to flying on the Max.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48682123
    As a BA Gold Executive Member, I will do the same.

  30. #130
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    You also need to tell them.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  31. #131
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    I have let them know, whether they choose to listen will depend on how many others do so.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalet View Post
    I have let them know, whether they choose to listen will depend on how many others do so.
    Exactly. Spreading the word is the only way to get a change.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by mondie View Post
    I do too redkite and after BA bought recently committed to buy 200 of the things I decided to sell my BA miles and ditch them for good. Shite airline who are pretending to be a full-service carrier. Wonder how BA think they can manage customer aversion to flying on the Max.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48682123
    BA haven’t committed to buy the things at all. IAG who own BA have signed a letter of intent. It isn’t binding and even if they do go ahead they won’t necessarily be flown by BA. never the less I agree with the sentiment of letting BA know your feelings. Just flown from Las Vegas to Miami and was due to fly on a Max before it was banned. Ended up on a 737 - 800.

  34. #134
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    Boeing loses big order for 737 Max..."Flyadeal, the low-cost airline Saudi Arabian airline, has cancelled an order for 30 Boeing 737 Max aircraft..."

  35. #135
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    Airlines cannot afford to give Airbus a monopoly. So they will do everything they can to prop up Boeing.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  36. #136
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    The things being discovered about this 737 thing are nothing short of deeply disturbing. It is unbelievable how something like this was possible, despite the greed and the corporate bullshit.

    Boeing is traditionally a company with great know-how and known for well designed airplanes, so one can't help but ask - what the hell, Boeing?

    This kind of behavior needs to get more public scrutiny and needs to be driven out of the corporate mindset.

  37. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Airlines cannot afford to give Airbus a monopoly. So they will do everything they can to prop up Boeing.
    Perhaps COMAC will break through and fill the gap? I bet the FAA will be all over it though, unlike the 737Max.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  38. #138
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    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  39. #139
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    What a lovely bunch..

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    Zee LINKY
    Last edited by VDG; 12th July 2019 at 09:34.
    BREAKING: Iranian boats attempted to sink a British oil tanker in the Gulf of Tonkin.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by VDG View Post
    W I see, as per per usual procedure, Haley has been rewarded for her rabid deceitful and warmongering performance in the UN.
    Friendly banter and clean jokes please and no politics or religion.
    Die Zeit verwandelt uns nicht, sie entfaltet uns nur.

  41. #141
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    Last edited by VDG; 12th July 2019 at 09:53.
    BREAKING: Iranian boats attempted to sink a British oil tanker in the Gulf of Tonkin.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Absolutely typical of a large company attitude. Throw money at unfortunate people and get them to sign as full settlement! "My lawyers are bigger and better than your lawyers!"

  43. #143
    There's speculation in The Guardian (and in Wikipedia) that Ryanair's new maxes will be rebranded 737 8200. Link

  44. #144
    Master sweets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bristol - UK
    Posts
    3,643
    Another good reason not to fly Ryanair

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