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Thread: Michael Jackson - Leaving Neverland

  1. #1
    Journeyman
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    Michael Jackson - Leaving Neverland

    MJ, undoubtedly a musical genius and admittedly a bit of a guilty pleasure.

    The documentary will air on Wednesday and make several salacious claims.

    Is he the creep he is now being portrayed to be or are this pair just gold diggers seeking to capitalise from a dead mans estate whilst destroying a legacy ?

  2. #2
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    Michael Jackson - Leaving Neverland

    To be fair the allegations were around whilst he was very much alive. The joke used to be that if the Americans wanted to enter Jordan theyíd send in Michael Jackson.

    Only those involved will ever know the truth, but he put himself in a position that made these accusations possible.

    In all of this, I have to question the parents as well.

  3. #3
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    Torn

    Unsure what to think, wonder if there is a case to be made posthumously. If he is guilty though then much like R Kelly the albums will have to go in the bin :(

  4. #4
    Iím planning to watch it, itíll be a Thriller


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  5. #5
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
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    I suspect this is the wrong place to be having this discussion.

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  6. #6
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    Tough one! Apparently the FBI investigated him numerous times whilst he was alive and never found anything. So you do have to wonder really. That said he had a messed-up upbringing and nothing would surprise me. The hardest thing would be trying to say to yourself, if you do believe the documentary, that you can't listen to his music any more. The guy was a f~cking genius musically and I adore some of his albums.

  7. #7
    I can see this one switching to the BP pretty quickly.

  8. #8
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicaneuk View Post
    Tough one! Apparently the FBI investigated him numerous times whilst he was alive and never found anything. So you do have to wonder really. That said he had a messed-up upbringing and nothing would surprise me. The hardest thing would be trying to say to yourself, if you do believe the documentary, that you can't listen to his music any more. The guy was a f~cking genius musically and I adore some of his albums.
    You do wonder why if these people have credible claims that they were abused, they haven't taken their stories to the Police. It's also hard to see how this long after the fact, any hard evidence can be found either way. Still, there was a lot of smoke around MJ, and you only have to look at cases like Cyril Smith and Jimmy Saville to know that child abuse can and does happen right under our noses.

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    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    I bet Bubbles has some yarns to tell?

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    I think Bubbles was the only thing not getting blown.

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    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    In the end it just comes down to who you believe.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    MJ, undoubtedly a musical genius and admittedly a bit of a guilty pleasure.

    The documentary will air on Wednesday and make several salacious claims.

    Is he the creep he is now being portrayed to be or are this pair just gold diggers seeking to capitalise from a dead mans estate whilst destroying a legacy ?

    No hes a Paedo

  13. #13
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    Thread migrating in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
    No hes a Paedo
    Allegedly - unless you have evidence that would stand up in a US court

  15. #15
    Master sean's Avatar
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    ^^^ Wouldn't someone be allowed to say that in the US, with their constitutional freedom of speech protections? It's over here that you'd get clobbered in court for saying (or typing...!) it without anything to back it up.

    That said, perhaps Pardalis and mrushton would like to edit their posts, just to be safe!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
    No hes a Paedo
    Never convicted of any wrongdoing I donít think ?

    Fair to say he loved kids though.

  17. #17
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    At what time do children go to bed in Neverland?


















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    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    ^^^ Wouldn't someone be allowed to say that in the US, with their constitutional freedom of speech protections? It's over here that you'd get clobbered in court for saying (or typing...!) it without anything to back it up.

    That said, perhaps Pardalis and mrushton would like to edit their posts, just to be safe!


    With him being dead I think they might be safe from legal action.

  19. #19
    Master sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kace View Post
    With him being dead I think they might be safe from legal action.
    You might be rightóI now recall the saying 'you can't slander the dead'.

  20. #20
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    His estate are taking legal action against those involved in the documentary - not that I think that suggests they will be interested in comments made on a niche U.K. based internet chat forum for watches.

  21. #21
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    not that I think that suggests they will be interested in comments made on a niche U.K. based internet chat forum for watches.
    You obviously don't remember when we tried discussing Elton John after a super-injunction had been breached in the foreign press.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    You obviously don't remember when we tried discussing Elton John after a super-injunction had been breached in the foreign press.
    I don’t think the Jackson family/estate have any such injunction in place, least not one applicable in the U.K.

    Hopefully we learn more from the documentary tomorrow.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    Never convicted of any wrongdoing I donít think ?

    Fair to say he loved kids though.
    I saw Mark Lester of Oliver fame, give a staunch defensive stance towards MJ. He recalled in detail many holidays spent at the Never ranch with his family and not a snippet of any violation or paedophilic activity towards him as a youngster.

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  24. #24
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    ^^^ Wouldn't someone be allowed to say that in the US, with their constitutional freedom of speech protections? It's over here that you'd get clobbered in court for saying (or typing...!) it without anything to back it up.

    That said, perhaps Pardalis and mrushton would like to edit their posts, just to be safe!
    Quote Originally Posted by kace View Post
    With him being dead I think they might be safe from legal action.

    It's not legal action they need to be safe from, it's the bloke who wrote post #5 in this thread.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bond View Post
    I saw Mark Lester of Oliver fame, give a staunch defensive stance towards MJ. He recalled in detail many holidays spent at the Never ranch with his family and not a snippet of any violation or paedophilic activity towards him as a youngster.

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    And didn’t Robson and Safechuck themselves once defend Jackson against allegations of impropriety ?

    They’re after cash now I reckon.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bond View Post
    I saw Mark Lester of Oliver fame, give a staunch defensive stance towards MJ. He recalled in detail many holidays spent at the Never ranch with his family and not a snippet of any violation or paedophilic activity towards him as a youngster.

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    MJ bought the ranch in 1988 Lester was 30 at the time, the same age as MJ.

    You obviously don't remember when we tried discussing Elton John after a super-injunction had been breached in the foreign press.

    Elton remains alive and able to hire lawyers.


    It's not legal action they need to be safe from, it's the bloke who wrote post #5 in this thread.
    Agreed, this isn't the place for the opinions likely to be put forward.

  27. #27
    Master bond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kace View Post
    MJ bought the ranch in 1988 Lester was 30 at the time, the same age as MJ.




    Elton remains alive and able to hire lawyers.




    Agreed, this isn't the place for the opinions likely to be put forward.
    Agreed, it's not the place.

    My mistake yes Lester was 30,but he had his own children with him at times which to me says alot that he had no qualms about their personal safety or concerns.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    And didnít Robson and Safechuck themselves once defend Jackson against allegations of impropriety ?

    Theyíre after cash now I reckon.
    Probably

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrushton View Post
    Allegedly - unless you have evidence that would stand up in a US court
    Not for R.Kelly, Weinstein, Spacey or Savile etc.

    I'm not saying anyone did or didn't do anything in any instance, but it seems if enough people say you did it, then you did it - court or no court...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete-r View Post
    Not for R.Kelly, Weinstein, Spacey or Savile etc.

    I'm not saying anyone did or didn't do anything in any instance, but it seems if enough people say you did it, then you did it - court or no court...
    Yes trial by media , judgment by the collective

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  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    His estate are taking legal action against those involved in the documentary - not that I think that suggests they will be interested in comments made on a niche U.K. based internet chat forum for watches.
    I think the Estate are suing film makers over a previous film made where the film makers are alleged to have signed something to say they wouldnít show MJ in bad light in any future documentaries, not over the veracity of the current programme.

  32. #32
    Master snowman's Avatar
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    Didn't he famously pay off a family that alleged he interfered with their son? They then withdrew their allegation...

    Pretty sure that is a matter of record.

    I know where I stand on this.

    M

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  33. #33
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Tricky one this.

    MJ was subjected to lots of investigation by the police and FBI and acquitted of all charges. So innocent.
    Two guys received lots of money (a figure of $22m for one was mentioned) and originally they acted for the defence. Now they are now the accusers. Looking for another pay out?
    Other children involved at the time claim that nothing bad happened and they were treated as part of an extended family.
    Having children sleep in your bed is odd to say the least, but it isn't illegal - otherwise lots of parents would be locked up.
    As for the sexual abuse allegations, I suppose it is dependant what theses actually are. Some people might claim that an unwanted kiss could be considered sexual abuse. In which case should my granny be locked up. Plus where exactly is the proof?

    Jackson was very eccentric (understatement) and seems to comes across as someone living in his own bubble (pun) and who surrounded himself with people who he felt could offer him the unrequited love and trust he craved - but that doesn't prove his a criminal (not smooth) �� just someone who is rather damaged.

    No idea whether he is guilty of anything other than a mental illness, but if he is, then I really hope that the parents of the children involved are tried for criminal endangerment and possible pandering. However given that MJ is dead, I sincerely believe this has very little to with justice, and everything to do with money.
    Last edited by Andyg; 6th March 2019 at 22:54.

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  34. #34
    Craftsman
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    Someone sent me a picture of some gloves that were allegedly found at his ranch.



    I think he may have been winding me up though.

  35. #35
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    Watching it at present, half way through part 1 and I am now even more convinced this pair are at it.

    Whatís the mother all about ? Laughing and smiling as she recalls the alleged abuse of her son who she knowingly permitted to spend inordinate time with Jackson.

    What a sad muck raking exercise this is.

  36. #36
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Watching it now and its pretty shocking and graphic.. would you stoop so low to say what has happened to you in such graphic nature for a few quid?

    I'm certainly no snowflake but people on this thread taking the Michael (excuse the pun) are essentially having a laugh about child abuse.
    Last edited by murkeywaters; 6th March 2019 at 23:55.

  37. #37
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    Time to put this one to bed I think.

  38. #38
    Genius you most be joking. One of the most overrated performers of all time. Compared to really talented musicians out there he was average. His Thriller album was good but apart from that it was all downhill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA56 View Post
    MJ, undoubtedly a musical genius and admittedly a bit of a guilty pleasure.

    The documentary will air on Wednesday and make several salacious claims.

    Is he the creep he is now being portrayed to be or are this pair just gold diggers seeking to capitalise from a dead mans estate whilst destroying a legacy ?

  39. #39
    What's to your taste Henk? Any music stars you would consider geniuses?

  40. #40
    Jimmy Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, Bowie just to name a few!

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by kace View Post
    What's to your taste Henk? Any music stars you would consider geniuses?
    Jimmy Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, Bowie just to name a few!

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by henk View Post
    His Thriller album was good but apart from that it was all downhill.
    Letís not forget that Thriller included The Girl is Mine, an undisputed masterpiece in terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the synthesis of two musical geniuses Jackson and McCartney. A moving song, it deepens and enriches the meaning of life. As positive and affirmative as anything Iíve heard. A great song, a personal favourite.

    Werenít Rod Pemberton and Quincy Jones the real geniuses behind Thriller?


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  43. #43
    I didn't watch last night but did they mention Jordy Chandler?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_c...ichael_Jackson

  44. #44
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Weren’t Rod *Temperton and Quincy Jones the real geniuses behind Thriller?
    That's a bit like asking who the genius behind Sinatra was. MJ was an outstanding performer, even if you didn't care for his music (I don't, out of interest).


    Rod Temperton has an extraordinary list of songwriting credits:

    Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Temperton

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    who the genius behind Sinatra was.[/url]
    Nancy? Lee Hazlewood. Nancy was pretty cool though.


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  46. #46
    Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Wasn't it the Chicago Outfit?

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    That's a bit like asking who the genius behind Sinatra was. MJ was an outstanding performer, even if you didn't care for his music (I don't, out of interest).


    Rod Temperton has an extraordinary list of songwriting credits:

    Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Temperton
    Like Jimmy Webb - both prodigious songwriters, albeit different genres.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Webb

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by willie_gunn View Post
    Like Jimmy Webb - both prodigious songwriters, albeit different genres.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Webb
    Saw Jimmy Webb at the Roundhouse last summer wheezing his way through Macarthur Park and his fantastic repertoire. Still a great evening. I think Galveston by Glenn Campbell is a great song, but brilliant hearing JW deliver it as he meant it, a soulful anti war song.

    Another prodigious, to a great extent anonymous, writer of great songs from that era- Laura Nyro.


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  49. #49
    Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Anyone still chewing on what they saw in that documentary might find this article, (which isn't about this case specifically) useful reading
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...16436.html?amp

  50. #50
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    Very much grew up listening to Jacko and for me, I rate some of his music as my favourite of all time. Went into the documentary sceptical and frankly thought nothing would change my opinion short of it being a bombshell.

    Have to say it was a bit more of a bombshell than I was expecting and now on the other side of having watched it, I think his legacy is ruined.

    I think there's an element of his own totally broken upbringing and difficulty with making friends resulted in his life taking the turn it did (regarding his relationship with kids) and that he probably did genuinely care about the kids in his life beyond just the er.. sexual stuff.. but ultimately nothing can excuse what he did and certainly it's left the two guys in the documentary messed up for life - and who knows however many other kids it was happening to.

    The only things that linger in my mind really are that (I believe) they're seeking damages from the Jackson estate. As soon as money comes into it, it kind of feels like the credibility is gone. I also thought the mother of Safechuck was a bit of a piece of work.. she acknowleged that their home was bought with hush money from Jackson (in the form of a loan that he wrote off) for what he did to her only child, yet openly celebrated his death.. whaaat?!
    Last edited by chicaneuk; 12th March 2019 at 12:24.

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