Fake Daytona

[jmitch]

I don't know what to say:



Being offered by what appears to be an NAJ member in Norwich. http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...mt-master.html

Green GMT-Master text on a BLNR?

Alignment of ROLEX text on the inner rehaut at the 11 o'clock marker?

That swing-tag?

Crikey.

Apparently "All our secondhand timepieces have all been fully serviced" --- so I wonder who their watch-maker is and what he thought of the watch?

I had a look at their stock a couple of weeks back and the Submariners they had were pretty rough.

[RAJEN]

It is hard for some to understand that Rolex success is not just due to creating mystique/fetishisation and restricting supply but also and largely due to a product that is quality and appeals to people. It is not easy otherwise every Tom,Dick and Harry would do it. It is poor reasoning that just because good copies can be made that they should be made or is ok to make. Rolex obviously is not unhealthily preoccupied with fake business, though I am sure they are not happy about it. Rolex does what most sought after luxury brands do and does it well. I don't know why people seem to get so worked up about it.

[stefmcd]

It is poor reasoning that just because good copies can be made that they should be made or is ok to make. .

I think the point is more that it is inevitable that such popular product is copied, not should or ok.



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[Culminator]

Almost puts me off fishing in that pond for fear of being tricked.

[Rev-O]

It is hard for some to understand that Rolex success is not just due to creating mystique/fetishisation and restricting supply but also and largely due to a product that is quality and appeals to people. It is not easy otherwise every Tom,Dick and Harry would do it.

Oh yes, that's a given. But also relatively easy. With respect, "every Tom, Dick and Harry" are doing it. The difference with Rolex is the aura of exclusivity they create (and this by a brand that churn out maybe a million watches a year; any scarcity is of Rolex's own choosing.)

It is poor reasoning that just because good copies can be made that they should be made or is ok to make.

Just to be clear: I never said, and do not think, it is OK.

Rolex does what most sought after luxury brands do and does it well.

Yes. It's about people agreeing to assign a worth to something that is in no way related to any intrinsic value (parts, labour, R&D, retail overheads, profit margins etc). It's a con trick that people knowingly and willingly collude with. See my earlier analogy with money.

I don't know why people seem to get so worked up about it.

I'm not worked up, I just see through it and don't wish to participate in it.

As an aside, I don't think that watches will hold their value in the long term simply because of demographics. An example: an old chap in my fishing club has a 1953 Velocette. He rides it to the club and it's in good, solid condition, regularly used and maintained. He was saying that its value rose steadily as the men who either had one for wished they'd had in the 1950s reached peak purchasing power -- and then declined as they got too old to ride and even sold the ones they'd bought.

Do you think people who've never grown up with wristwatches, much less mechanical wristwatches, will want to spend a large sum on one in 10, 20, 40 years' time? Maybe, but as jewellery / status symbols / collection pieces.

I'm 47 years old. I want a pension in 15-20 years' time. I'm not investing in watches.

£100k = decent collection of Rolex watches. New and/or old. Chronos, divers, whatever. Some classics (1016? 5513?), box and papers? Nice to wear and look at. Not much in the way of on-going costs (insurance? servicing?). And hope the value continues to rise to make it a good investment.

-- or --

£100k = buy-to-let property = £500 pcm rental income + outright ownership of a real, habitable bricks and mortar house. Even if the house ended up worth the same or even a bit less than you paid for it you're still up on the deal. And you can live in it.

But I've said all this before: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...phics+property

[julian2002]

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

The main issue with fakes, is not the nuts and bolt, metallurgy or proprietary materials, these can all be analysed and reproduced if warranted by fakers. The real issue and 'tell' of a fake is in the construction quality - and I suspect this is where the majority of the cost is for a real manufacturer too. The cleanliness, quality of hand polishing, etc., these are the things that I suspect fake hunters like Milton tick off first and cover 90% of fakes out there. Opening a watch and seeing an eyelash in the movement or examining a dial with a loupe and seeing dust or a slightly misaligned applied baton will be the biggest tells.

[RAJEN]

Re: Oh yes, that's a given. But also relatively easy. With respect, "every Tom, Dick and Harry" ARE doing it. The difference with Rolex is the aura of exclusivity they create (and this by a brand that churn out maybe a million watches a year; any scarcity is of Rolex's own choosing.


I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say.
Are you implying every Tom, Dick and Harry has been able to replicate Rolex's success?
Is it easy to replicate its success?

Also, on one hand you are saying Rolex is making a lot of watches but then you are claiming it is creating scarcity. If Rolex is able to 'create' scarcity inspite of making so many, surely it is an astounding feat.Is it possible that even though they make so many, the demand is so massive that it is not being met?

Coming next, how Rolex is surreptitiously altering young babies' DNAs to make them hanker for a Rolex.
Damn it, please let it be any reason but that they make great watches.

[Dave+63]

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

Halifax, Rochdale, Bury, Oldham for starters.

I’m sure there are more but these are ones I’m familiar with.

[Rev-O]

Re: Oh yes, that's a given. But also relatively easy. With respect, "every Tom, Dick and Harry" ARE doing it. The difference with Rolex is the aura of exclusivity they create (and this by a brand that churn out maybe a million watches a year; any scarcity is of Rolex's own choosing.


I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say.
Are you implying every Tom, Dick and Harry has been able to replicate Rolex's success?
Is it easy to replicate its success?

No, I'm saying lots of people make great watches with impeccable QC. I've had and handled new watches from many of the Big and Not Quite So Big Brands. It's not unique to Rolex.

Also, on one hand you are saying Rolex is making a lot of watches but then you are claiming it is creating scarcity. If Rolex is able to 'create' scarcity inspite of making so many, surely it is an astounding feat.Is it possible that even though they make so many, the demand is so massive that it is not being met?

Rolex make about 1,000,000 watches a year. One million. All done in-house: no supply chain, no contingencies. And yet there's a waiting list for certain models? Why? Because they make it so. They engineer the scarcity. Yes, Rolex "create" scarcity. That is not "an astounding feat". That's actually very, very simple. (Not doing something -- making / supplying watches -- usually is.)

You ask: "Is it possible that even though they make so many, the demand is so massive that it is not being met?" You need to rethink the assumptions behind that question. ;-)

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

Well, I live in Midlands and have done it a couple of times.

PM me if you're serious.

The main issue with fakes, is not the nuts and bolt, metallurgy or proprietary materials, these can all be analysed and reproduced if warranted by fakers. The real issue and 'tell' of a fake is in the construction quality - and I suspect this is where the majority of the cost is for a real manufacturer too. The cleanliness, quality of hand polishing, etc., these are the things that I suspect fake hunters like Milton tick off first and cover 90% of fakes out there. Opening a watch and seeing an eyelash in the movement or examining a dial with a loupe and seeing dust or a slightly misaligned applied baton will be the biggest tells.

Yep. But I've never bought a fake house.

[chrisparker]

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

Hull.

[Haywood_Milton]

I have just spoken with a gentleman at the shop, asking specifically about the black and blue bezel GMT-Master on their website.

He said that he has sold it --- and could have sold it ten times over.

I expressed my regret, as the one on the website was clearly a fake.



The gentleman responded that the one they sold was "direct from Rolex and had its box, papers and everything."

I asked him what, then, the advertisement of the fake watch was for.

He responded that he had photographed the fake one for the website before they got the other one in, that they had sold.

I asked why the fake was still on his website for £6,250.

He responded that he would remove it.

I pointed out the swing-tag, which specifically belongs to a unique steel Oyster Perpetual 26mm yet appeared in so many images, and he confirmed that they had used the same swing-tag and box to photograph with a number of watches.

I did not ask, but wonder at what point they disclose the nature of those significant diamond parts that are not by Rolex, fitted to others of their advertised Rolex watches. I can't see anything on the website to identify non-Rolex diamond bezels, lugs or dials.

[Rev-O]

Good work HM.

Well done.

But I guess you can't spend your life doing that for every questionable (at best) watch out there.

And I guess some people don't like it when you do.

Caveat emptor, I guess.

[David_D]

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

That’s 6% pa yield. Definitely doable up north but obviously that’s gross before any costs (recurring: insurance, gas safety, agents, etc., and ad hoc repairs and re-let costs). Crucially, also, without void periods.

[David_D]

He responded that he had photographed the fake one for the website before they got the other one in, that they had sold.

That really does set alarm bells ringing! So he keeps a few fakes in stock for photographic purposes?? Sounds convincing, I don’t think!

[Haywood_Milton]

What do our Patek experts make of this certificated 3800/1A at £9,850 ?

http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...-nautilus.html

[DMC102]

What do our Patek experts make of this certificated 3800/1A at £9,850 ?

http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...-nautilus.html

I'm no expert but that looks atrocious to me. Date window is miles off for a start.

[Rev-O]

That’s 6% pa yield. Definitely doable up north but obviously that’s gross before any costs (recurring: insurance, gas safety, agents, etc., and ad hoc repairs and re-let costs). Crucially, also, without void periods.

Call it 4% net.

And that's not counting any increase in the value of the property.

I can't get that from a bank.

And it won't be a fake or get stolen or have to be kept in a safe or get dropped on the hard, cold marble floor of a hotel (don't ask . . . .)

[nunya]

Rolex make about 1,000,000 watches a year. One million. All done in-house: no supply chain, no contingencies. And yet there's a waiting list for certain models? Why? Because they make it so. They engineer the scarcity. Yes, Rolex "create" scarcity. That is not "an astounding feat". That's actually very, very simple. (Not doing something -- making / supplying watches -- usually is.)

You ask: "Is it possible that even though they make so many, the demand is so massive that it is not being met?" You need to rethink the assumptions behind that question. ;-)

The old "it's in Rolex's favour, they do it on purpose" is bull-plop. If watches are sold outside the Rolex supply chain at inflated prices, they (Rolex) do not see any of that extra mark up, so of no benefit to them. It might increase desirability a bit, but they already make desirable watches, "everyone" has heard of them, so I don't see much benefit to their status either.

A million it is not, but even if it was it makes no difference. The biggest seller for Rolex is the Date-Just, the SS Professional Series of watches are not made in the same quantities. This in turn leads to comparative shortage in supply against demand. Increasing production isn't as simple as "let's just make some more" and if you think that your thoughts on this are moronic.

[Mick P]

The old "it's in Rolex's favour, they do it on purpose" is bull-plop. If watches are sold outside the Rolex supply chain at inflated prices, they (Rolex) do not see any of that extra mark up, so of no benefit to them. It might increase desirability a bit, but they already make desirable watches, "everyone" has heard of them, so I don't see much benefit to their status either.

A million it is not, but even if it was it makes no difference. The biggest seller for Rolex is the Date-Just, the SS Professional Series of watches are not made in the same quantities. This in turn leads to comparative shortage in supply against demand. Increasing production isn't as simple as "let's just make some more" and if you think that your thoughts on this are moronic.

But what it does do is improve the brand image and thereby making more frequent and heftier price increases easier to implement.

Let's be realistic, Rolex could increase their prices by 10% today and we would still all be buying.

[RAJEN]

What do our Patek experts make of this certificated 3800/1A at £9,850 ?

http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...-nautilus.html

I suspect you know the answer:-)
Again no expert but the date window should be very close to the edge of the dial.

[Rev-O]

The old "it's in Rolex's favour, they do it on purpose" is bull-plop.

People (me, you) and companies, countries etc doing thing in their favour is hardly bull-plop.

If watches are sold outside the Rolex supply chain at inflated prices, they (Rolex) do not see any of that extra mark up, so of no benefit to them.

Really? So if I know I can buy a watch from you for £1 and sell it for £1.50 that doesn't help you?

It might increase desirability a bit, but they already make desirable watches, "everyone" has heard of them, so I don't see much benefit to their status either.

I'll leave the logic of that to others.

A million it is not

I believe it is about 900,000 based on COSC certificates issued. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

but even if it was it makes no difference. The biggest seller for Rolex is the Date-Just, the SS Professional Series of watches are not made in the same quantities. This in turn leads to comparative shortage in supply against demand. Increasing production isn't as simple as "let's just make some more" and if you think that your thoughts on this are moronic.

"Increasing production isn't as simple as "let's just make some more" and if you think that your thoughts on this are moronic."

Then I, o wise master, am a moron.

[paneristi372]

What do our Patek experts make of this certificated 3800/1A at £9,850 ?

http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...-nautilus.html

Atrocious! Give him a callback and ask about this!

[xiaogouju]

It's a fraud isn't it?

[Haywood_Milton]

Would someone else care to call and ask about the Patek, if they think it is also wrong? It would be interesting to hear the response on that as well, if so.

Here's a screen grab of watch and telephone number:

[David_D]

Call it 4% net.

And that's not counting any increase in the value of the property.

You could probably get similar on various funds - with no upfront SDLT penalty!!

[lasz]

Would someone else care to call and ask about the Patek, if they think it is also wrong?

I don't know about the rest of the watch, but I can vouch for the datewheel - it's dead wrong.

[Haywood_Milton]

I don't know about the rest of the watch, but I can vouch for the datewheel - it's dead wrong.

Crown looks large.....

[paneristi372]

The bezel is too thick, the crown is too big, date well off, links are terrible, its an abomination.

[nunya]

People (me, you) and companies, countries etc doing thing in their favour is hardly bull-plop.

Missed my point entirely. Selling a Rolex outside of their supply chain doesn't benefit Rolex. Artificially restricting supply, therefore not selling, isn't a benefit either.

Really? So if I know I can buy a watch from you for £1 and sell it for £1.50 that doesn't help you?

Of course it doesn't, I've sold a watch for £1, because you've sold it for £1.50 doesn't benefit my bottom line at all

I'll leave the logic of that to others.

The logic being, if you're "on top" in the desirability stakes, more people knowing about it doesn't make you more "on top" as you're already there

I believe it is about 900,000 based on COSC certificates issued. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

So, a million it isn't? Last I read (a while ago) Rolex were producing 800,000 and looking at reducing production numbers. But, whatever the figure that only number of movements tested, it does not necessarily mean number of complete watches sold.

"Increasing production isn't as simple as "let's just make some more" and if you think that your thoughts on this are moronic."

Then I, o wise master, am a moron.

I never said that you are a moron, but if that's what you think of yourself, or if that's what you think I said about you, that is on you.

[nunya]

Lets play spot the difference

[Rev-O]

I’ll do it if no one else has.

Should be good for a laugh

[David_D]

It's a fraud isn't it?

Presumably there is no fraud until someone has actually been defrauded. No-one here is volunteering!

In the old days, you might have been able to get Trading Standards interested. Not sure they even exist now.

[Rev-O]

Artificially restricting supply, therefore not selling, isn't a benefit either.

Restricting supply where there already demand can have the effect of increasing demand. It means selling less (fewer units) at a higher price. Done right it is a MASSIVE benefit.

Come on, this is GCSE economics. Ever wanted a girl who played hard to get? Yeah, that.

But, whatever the figure that only number of movements tested, it does not necessarily mean number of complete watches sold.

Not all their watches are COSC certified. So it's not like that's the total, only a subset.

[Rev-O]

Presumably there is no fraud until someone has actually been defrauded. No-one here is volunteering!

In the old days, you might have been able to get Trading Standards interested. Not sure they even exist now.

Phoned them:

Me: "Hello, I'm just phoning up about the Patek Nautilus. May I ask if it's been serviced?"

Him: "Sold."

Me: "Oh Really?"

Him: "Yes. It was virtually brand new. It was a couple of years old but only ever used as a window display by Patek in Bond Street."

Me: "Oh, OK"

Him: hung up.

[David_D]

Phoned them:

Me: "Hello, I'm just phoning up about the Patek Nautilus. May I ask if it's been serviced?"

Him: "Sold."

Me: "Oh Really?"

Him: "Yes. It was virtually brand new. It was a couple of years old but only ever used as a window display by Patek in Bond Street."

Me: "Oh, OK"

Him: hung up.

Shame. Good on you for trying!

[Rev-O]

Shame. Good on you for trying!

No "can I interest you in another watch?" not even "I'm sorry it's now sold" just "Sold"

Very curt. Is the abruptness hiding something? You'd have to know the person to tell but it wasn't like I'd expect from a retailer of high-end watches.

Customer service: 2/10

[CaptainSlow]

Where can you get a house with £500 pcm rental value for £100k, please tell me.

My hometown and I own 3, just about to close on a £75k house which will give me £475pcm.

[Haywood_Milton]

No "can I interest you in another watch?" not even "I'm sorry it's now sold" just "Sold"

Very curt. Is the abruptness hiding something? You'd have to know the person to tell but it wasn't like I'd expect from a retailer of high-end watches.

Customer service: 2/10

Best I can tell, he's had three people contacting him today about :

- the fake 116710 BLNR on his website (..."sold a genuine one.")

- the Patek (?) on his website (..."sold.")

- the 16610 on his website (..."sold.") http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...ubmariner.html
This has pierced lugs but apparently came with a "Rolex certification card." I reckon that's extraordinary, since solid lugs were introduced in the late Y-series cases, some time before cards were introduced.

Still don't know about the disclosure of non-Rolex diamond parts.

A website to watch!

[Rev-O]

The gentleman responded that the one they sold was "direct from Rolex and had its box, papers and everything."

I've just realised that they told me the Nautilus was direct from Patek.

Odd coincidence.

Funny that.

Putting the "naughty" in "nautilus"

[noidea]

That is a nice looking jewellers in the Royal Arcade in Norwich, just goes to show looks can be deceiving. It can't be cheap rent in there.
A friend of a friend was looking to buy 2 'Rolexes' from them as they were at a very good price, he was looking to double his money!
I said why the hell would a jewellers sell two watches at half price, beware indeed.

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[Montello]

A friend of a friend was looking to buy 2 'Rolexes' from them as they were at a very good price, he was looking to double his money!

Greed can cloud your judgement, if the price looks too low you have to ask yourself why ...

[noidea]

Greed can cloud your judgement, if the price looks too low you have to ask yourself why ...

Exactly my point to him. I tried to call him today but I didn't get an answer, I hope he didn't buy anything.

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[DMC102]

Exactly my point to him. I tried to call him today but I didn't get an answer, I hope he didn't buy anything.

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Here's hoping he doesn't pop round to show you his new BLNR and Nautilus.

[noidea]

Here's hoping he doesn't pop round to show you his new BLNR and Nautilus.

Let's hope not!

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[nunya]

Restricting supply where there already demand can have the effect of increasing demand. It means selling less (fewer units) at a higher price. Done right it is a MASSIVE benefit.

Oh dear me. It doesn't increase demand, the demand stays the same, it is the supply that's restricted. And we are talking Rolex not in general terms.
A Sub ND is £5750 today, or in 6 months time. So purposefully restricting supply would benefit Rolex how?

Come on, this is GCSE economics. Ever wanted a girl who played hard to get? Yeah, that.

Er no. If a girl plays hard to get, I move on I don't have time for silly childish games.

Not all their watches are COSC certified. So it's not like that's the total, only a subset.

Wrong, all the current range are COSC certified, quote from Rolex "The green seal accompanying every Rolex watch is a symbol of its status as a Superlative Chronometer"

[lasz]

That is a nice looking jewellers in the Royal Arcade in Norwich, just goes to show looks can be deceiving. It can't be cheap rent in there.
A friend of a friend was looking to buy 2 'Rolexes' from them as they were at a very good price, he was looking to double his money!
I said why the hell would a jewellers sell two watches at half price, beware indeed.

Hearing you guys from the UK discussing, things seem to be getting a bit extreme over there. I'm from Slovenia and our "Craigslist" is full of fakes, from cheap laughable ones to some costing maybe €300-500, but it's all private sellers. To hear about 2nd hand dealers knowingly selling fakes in brick-and-mortar shops would shock me even if it happened here, in the Balkans, let alone in a well-run, serious place like the UK.

[nunya]

My hometown and I own 3, just about to close on a £75k house which will give me £475pcm.

And one less affordable house for someone trying to get on the property ladder.

Buy to Let is the same as employment agencies, vultures in their respective markets

[DMC102]

Meanwhile, no change in the selection available down at the Royal Arcade, Norwich: http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/watches.html

[verv]

And one less affordable house for someone trying to get on the property ladder.

Buy to Let is the same as employment agencies, vultures in their respective markets

Hand wringing against capitalism on a forum dedicated to luxury items. Thats novel.

[Russ]

Best I can tell, he's had three people contacting him today about :

- the fake 116710 BLNR on his website (..."sold a genuine one.")

- the Patek (?) on his website (..."sold.")

- the 16610 on his website (..."sold.") http://www.juelslimited.co.uk/pages/...ubmariner.html
This has pierced lugs but apparently came with a "Rolex certification card." I reckon that's extraordinary, since solid lugs were introduced in the late Y-series cases, some time before cards were introduced.

Still don't know about the disclosure of non-Rolex diamond parts.

A website to watch!

Could it be that they have googled themselves for recent activity or even be previously aware of this forum and specifically this thread. Is it me or have the responses to these calls been pre prepared because they have been expecting them. The sales thread has a post requirement before access, is there perhaps some justification to have topics like this in a more protected members area?